Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[braineclipse]

seems to me we're more or less agreement tbh

Yeah. Mourinho is in the middle of a painful rebuild, quite a few of our players need to step out up significantly or be replaced, we're lacking balance in the squad and there's a clear shortage of quality in a couple of key positions.

As a result performances and results are inconsistent, at times we look awful.

None of this is Mourinho's fault and he's the best manager in the world [emoji6]

 

[Raziel]

Funny that a week ago when we lost to Chelsea and we were dire, the pundits rightly so questioned the team and mourinho ... this week the pundits have come out and said they feel sorry for mourinho for having players regularly brain fart ... not a whimper of discussion.

BTW I don't like pundits, just making a point.

I don't like pundits because typically they provide nothing of value (just some stupid regurgitated point that was probably made up prior to any particular game even being played). But to me, only one in recent times has got Spurs right, it was a comment that we are a team struggling for balance.

That said, if you look at the two games

- We were flat against Chelsea, timid, gave up too much initiative and really only gave 30-40 minutes of decent performance. You could make a fair argument that that is on the manager, including initial team selection.
- Against Everton, we came out swinging and no one would have been surprised if they were dead and buried in the first 25 minutes. Two of traditionally better players in PEH & Lloris combined to put us in a huge hole, despite that, the team played on, our counter attacking game looked brilliant at times and it came down to yet another individual fudge up that cost us the game.

So in one, yes question Jose, in the second, it's really hard to try to blame Jose for that. Hate to say it, but sometimes it plays out that way, 99 times out of a 100 we win that game, we didn't best thing to do is move on.

 

[billyiddo]

Yeah. Mourinho is in the middle of a painful rebuild, quite a few of our players need to step out up significantly or be replaced, we're lacking balance in the squad and there's a clear shortage of quality in a couple of key positions.

As a result performances and results are inconsistent, at times we look awful.

None of this is Mourinho's fault and he's the best manager in the world [emoji6]

 

[Robspur12]

A lot are saying that we need a major squad overhaul, but I don't agree with that. I think we're in a similar position to what Liverpool was a few years ago.
We need a top-quality goalkeeper and at least one top quality CB (preferably two). Put those signings into the side from last night and we win the game easily.
It'll also be a top 4 side. I'd rather a few quality changes than a high churn of players in the next window.

I think Hugo is still a very good goalie who makes mistakes. All goalies do. Even Allison. I would personally throw all the money into a CB, DM to replace Sissoko and a playmaker to replace Eriksen.

 

[elltrev]

Funny that a week ago when we lost to Chelsea and we were dire, the pundits rightly so questioned the team and mourinho ... this week the pundits have come out and said they feel sorry for mourinho for having players regularly brain fart ... not a whimper of discussion.

BTW I don't like pundits, just making a point.

I think because against Chelsea the overall performance was woeful. I think it’s fair to question the manager when the entire team just looks totally clueless in possession, particularly in the first half.

Whereas last night the overall performance was good, and the only issue was individual errors.

 

[billyiddo]

I think because against Chelsea the overall performance was woeful. I think it’s fair to question the manager when the entire team just looks totally clueless in possession, particularly in the first half.

Whereas last night the overall performance was good, and the only issue was individual errors.

i just don't think you can blame individual errors when they are only accounting for a solitary goal in a game - that's just showing you aren't doing enough the other end and so as an excuse it falls on deaf ears.

games like yesterday where we're talking multiple goals are a different story - and certainly a valid excuse

 

[elltrev]

i just don't think you can blame individual errors when they are only accounting for a solitary goal in a game - that's just showing you aren't doing enough the other end and so as an excuse it falls on deaf ears

Agreed.

 

[braineclipse]

i just don't think you can blame individual errors when they are only accounting for a solitary goal in a game - that's just showing you aren't doing enough the other end and so as an excuse it falls on deaf ears.

games like yesterday where we're talking multiple goals are a different story - and certainly a valid excuse

It depends. Normally you need those 1-0 wins, even against smaller teams, with some frequency during a season to achieve your aims. Being able to get clean sheets fairly regularly is a decent predictor of relative success at least.

But I think we've relied on absorbing pressure too much this season. Put in positions where there's been a lot of potential situations for individual errors to hurt us, without having the players needed to actually keep those clean sheets that way.

That being said we've also seen us play more attacking and have that not work out. I'm not convinced that playing a more attacking style would have seen us with significantly more points. It's certainly at least plausible and I'm glad Mourinho has found a way to get the players playing that way.

Assuming he's right in saying that he's wanted that for quite a while now, but the players just haven't been able to deliver it.

 

[billyiddo]

It depends. Normally you need those 1-0 wins, even against smaller teams, with some frequency during a season to achieve your aims. Being able to get clean sheets fairly regularly is a decent predictor of relative success at least.

But I think we've relied on absorbing pressure too much this season. Put in positions where there's been a lot of potential situations for individual errors to hurt us, without having the players needed to actually keep those clean sheets that way.

That being said we've also seen us play more attacking and have that not work out. I'm not convinced that playing a more attacking style would have seen us with significantly more points. It's certainly at least plausible and I'm glad Mourinho has found a way to get the players playing that way.

Assuming he's right in saying that he's wanted that for quite a while now, but the players just haven't been able to deliver it.

let's see how we go after the Ciy game

 

[Gazza]

I think Hugo is still a very good goalie who makes mistakes. All goalies do. Even Allison. I would personally throw all the money into a CB, DM to replace Sissoko and a playmaker to replace Eriksen.

At the base of all great teams is a top-notch reliable keeper ...All goalies do make mistakes but Lloris seems to be making them every week.

 

[Baleforce]

i just don't think you can blame individual errors when they are only accounting for a solitary goal in a game - that's just showing you aren't doing enough the other end and so as an excuse it falls on deaf ears.

games like yesterday where we're talking multiple goals are a different story - and certainly a valid excuse

its likely that in those games there were equal errors at the other end, I think it's true that defensive players get harsher treatment than attacking ones, despite a defensive mistake turning a low quality situation into a goal being equal (imo) with an attacking player not converting a high quality one

 

[braineclipse]

let's see how we go after the Ciy game

Agreed, expecting a defensive display, and not expecting much at all in terms of results. But after that I hope we stick with Ndombele deep and a more attacking approach.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

They need replacing
So do a LOT of players
By the end of the summer we could end up with such a churn that we will have about 15 players that have joined since the post CL final window. That’s the kinda number we’re at

I think it was a reasonable assumption that the dry transfer windows under Poch would kick a lot of transfer activity down the road and we are still playing that catch-up now.

Pretty much the better players under Poch have moved along/faded Dembele Wanyama Eriksen Rose Walker Jan and those are the areas we are having problems. Sissoko, Winks, Davies, Moura are good players but no more than squad players for a top 4 side (not a doped one), and if everyone was fit none of them would be in the starting 11.

The thing is we can't necessarily do this transformation at the rate we desire. And whether that is also out of sync with Jose, i'm sure we'll find out.

That said our first 11 if all fit is very much moved on from the Poch era. CH's is the focus right now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I’ve been very critical of Jose but not last night. I thought we set up very well and were let down badly by individuals (Hugo, Hjobjerg mainly).

The difference for me between last night and other games is I thought we invited so much pressure in other games that a mistake was inevitable at some stage. Last night, we played really well, they didn’t force the errors with pressure - it was just the stupidity of our players.

I’m with you here. Last night we actually played well for a majority of the game and it was one of those games where you wonder how we lost.

Some things that I took out of it were that:

1. Ndombele in that deeper position allows us to transition so much better. Keeping more players higher up also gives us some passing options.
2. I worry whether our defenders are being coached at all. Numerous games now have seen the opposition being kept onside by one of our CHs or fullbacks being deeper than what should be the defensive line (it was Toby and Doherty last night).
3. There is a HUGE drop off in quality between our first and second choice fullbacks. The two last night neither defend or attack well. Davies in particular was terrible and I lost count of the number of times that Everton played a simple give and go around him to get in behind. Davies’ quality of delivery was also terrible, we worked him into good positions on numerous occasions but he was where our attacks went to die.
4. Perhaps the subs were forced on Jose by injury concerns but I didn’t think they were really necessary last night. We looked more disjointed after we changed.
5. Sanchez is getting pelters today but I thought he may have been our least worst defensive player yesterday.
6. The organized chaos of Lamela, Moura and (to a lesser extent) Bergwijn frightened Everton. We had lots of good situations and possession in good areas with Everton not organised last night that just needed a better final action or a half decent full back on either right or left to exploit in behind.
7. Add our two first choice full backs and two top class fit, physical centre backs to that team and it could cause any team problems.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I’m with you here. Last night we actually played well for a majority of the game and it was one of those games where you wonder how we lost.

Some things that I took out of it were that:

1. Ndombele in that deeper position allows us to transition so much better. Keeping more players higher up also gives us some passing options.
2. I worry whether our defenders are being coached at all. Numerous games now have seen the opposition being kept onside by one of our CHs or fullbacks being deeper than what should be the defensive line (it was Toby and Doherty last night).
3. There is a HUGE drop off in quality between our first and second choice fullbacks. The two last night neither defend or attack well. Davies in particular was terrible and I lost count of the number of times that Everton played a simple give and go around him to get in behind. Davies’ quality of delivery was also terrible, we worked him into good positions on numerous occasions but he was where our attacks went to die.
4. Perhaps the subs were forced on Jose by injury concerns but I didn’t think they were really necessary last night. We looked more disjointed after we changed.
5. Sanchez is getting pelters today but I thought he may have been our least worst defensive player yesterday.
6. The organized chaos of Lamela, Moura and (to a lesser extent) Bergwijn frightened Everton. We had lots of good situations and possession in good areas with Everton not organised last night that just needed a better final action or a half decent full back on either right or left to exploit in behind.
7. Add our two first choice full backs and two top class fit, physical centre backs to that team and it could cause any team problems.

I think all the subs were fitness related, not tactical myself. Lamela looked knackered for example

 

[Finney Is Back]

We didn't start doing that until after the West Ham debacle though, before that we were regularly setup the same as last night but didn't concede many.

I think we actually started to do it in the West Ham game.... look how deep we were throughout much of the second half of that game.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it was a reasonable assumption that the dry transfer windows under Poch would kick a lot of transfer activity down the road and we are still playing that catch-up now.

Pretty much the better players under Poch have moved along/faded Dembele Wanyama Eriksen Rose Walker Jan and those are the areas we are having problems. Sissoko, Winks, Davies, Moura are good players but no more than squad players for a top 4 side (not a doped one), and if everyone was fit none of them would be in the starting 11.

The thing is we can't necessarily do this transformation at the rate we desire. And whether that is also out of sync with Jose, i'm sure we'll find out.

That said our first 11 if all fit is very much moved on from the Poch era. CH's is the focus right now.

Yeah I agree
Having our key players got is clearly key
But also adding the right players is huge

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sessegnon will be back in the summer and looks like he's progressing and could replace Davies. It's also more of a like for like swap.
Doherty has only been here a season, I'd give him next season before writing him off (see Tanguy)
Your other two points I agree on

I liked that as I read the first line and the then read the second line and unliked it!
Doherty isn’t an overseas player who needs to get used to the pace of PL football. If he doesn’t shape up in this second half of the season then he should be shipped out.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

People need to ask themselves is it cause our defenders are that good or maybe it's something to do with our formation/tactics.

It sacrifices goals scored but stops us shipping in 4's and 3's.

It certainly would appear to correlate.

Bad defenders...sit back and protect = less goals conceded
Bad defenders...leave more exposed = concede more

I do agree though that many of our goals are individual errors. Certain types of those can be coached out but overall defensive awareness is hard to coach in to a player that hasn't got it (Sanchez,Dier).

I would like to think there is a system somewhere in the middle of these two approaches BUT what is slightly worrying is we have probably the best screening CM in the league and its still happening.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The defensive record we had at the time was great/best in the league and yes i argued (correctly) that it was down to the tactics being used at that time - that doesn't mean that it follows that our defenders are so hopeless we can't play any other way, hard to argue in light of last night but it'll take more than one game conceding lots of goals with an attacking setup to convince me otherwise, especially when we have attacked just fine in other games without such a poor outcome - i think people are in danger of veering from one extreme to the other here. there's a middle ground and there's plenty of evidence in the results that suggests we can play a more attacking game against lesser teams. West Brom/Sheffield United/Leeds in our recent run of fixtures plus you could argue we created enough v Fulham too.

Think it was only the second goal last night anyway that wasn’t scored with us defending the edge of our box?