Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Bedfordspurs]

They are incompetent even in the low block so we might as well try and out score the brick teams.

I agree we should always try to outscore inferior sides

 

[billyiddo]

Maybe that 1 goal per game is the outlier
I mean people in the past have said we should take outliers out of stats!!!
And of course the reason we have that record is because we defended in the much maligned be hated low block. People wanted the shackles off and we have done that. It then exposes the incompetence of the defence

what are you on about an outlier? that doesn't even make any sense.

we've lost 19 points this season in games where our opponents have scored 0 or 1 goals

 

[Bishop]

But we can't

We did on Sunday and have done quite a few times throughout the season. I don't buy that we can't do it when we've done it. We can even outscore some of the decent ones like we did to United earlier this season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

what are you on about an outlier? that doesn't even make any sense.

we've lost 19 points this season in games where our opponents have score 0 or 1 goals

I mean when people were comparing us recently with United and Pool they wanted to take out the Villa defeat and the game vs us
And yep the inability the keep a clean sheet and take out chances has cost us
How has a team scoring 0 goals against us cost us?

 

[billyiddo]

I mean when people were comparing us recently with United and Pool they wanted to take out the Villa defeat and the game vs us
And yep the inability the keep a clean sheet and take out chances has cost us

1 gpg isn't an outlier so whatever point your trying to make is nonsensical.


conceding 1 goal a game for a team with the attacking players we have shouldn't result in that many dropped points, that is a failure first and foremost with our ability to create and score plain and simple. we don't concede an out of the ordinary amount of goals, we concede less than everyone bar 1 team and the goals conceded are fairly evenly spread across the fixtures, of 22 games 17 have seen us concede 1 or less, that is a defensive record that allows good to strong attacks to win you games. We have bordeline world class attacking players - we shouldn't be failing to win as many games as we are.

 

[braineclipse]

We didn't start doing that until after the West Ham debacle though, before that we were regularly setup the same as last night but didn't concede many.

Aurier has been excellent, Reguilon has been excellent. That's a significant drop in quality. There's also just the normal variance in individual errors. Yesterday we got a lot of them, and was punished by some top notch finishing.

The biggest, and clearest difference to me is replacing Sissoko with Ndombele making room for another attacking midfielder. That doesn't explain shipping five goals, but it does make us more vulnerable defensively whilst being better going forward. That, imo, will sometimes result in games like the one we had yesterday.

If you can't outscore a defence conceding 1gpg then your prpblems aren't in defense.

Haven't you been saying repeatedly that we got that good defensive record by packing a lot of players behind the ball? Or was that someone else?

If you have to pack a lot of players behind the ball to make an otherwise shaky backline solid that will impact attacking play. Even though the problem becomes scoring goals the underlying problem might still be with the defenders.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

1 gpg isn't an outlier so whatever point your trying to make is nonsensical.


conceding 1 goal for a team with the attacking players shouldn't result in that many dropped points, that is a failure first and foremost with our ability to create and score plain and simple. we don't concede an out of the ordinary amount of goals, we concede less than everyone bar 1 team and the goals are fairly evenly spread across the fixtures of 22 games 18 have seen us concede 1 or less, that is a defensive record that allows strong attacks to win you games.

But the goals against column is skewed by the games where we were unattended defensive to compensate for the inability of our defence which cost us in attack in other games.

In every game bar West Brom where we have actually attacked and lead the game we have conceded.

if you look at the games we kept clean sheets in
west brom twice
Burnley away
Chelsea away
City
Arsenal
Leeds

3 super low block performances
2 one goal wins (games some fans said we didn’t deserve to win and only won because of Kane’s brilliance)
And two quite controlled games (Leeds and WBA home)
So 7 clean sheets in 22 games. Some great results in there and some very expected ones playing substandard opponents

 

[DubSpur]

A lot are saying that we need a major squad overhaul, but I don't agree with that. I think we're in a similar position to what Liverpool was a few years ago.
We need a top-quality goalkeeper and at least one top quality CB (preferably two). Put those signings into the side from last night and we win the game easily.
It'll also be a top 4 side. I'd rather a few quality changes than a high churn of players in the next window.

 

[braineclipse]

But a clearout isn't going to happen anytime soon, Jose has got to persevere and coach the mistakes out of them.

For the rest of the season he has to. Or get a song out of Rodon or Tanganga.

If he can't is that a problem with Mourinho, a problem with the players, or both?

I personally think Mourinho is still a very good manager, but he's not a miracle worker.

Alderweireld was available for £25m a year and a half ago, not a massive amount of money. No big club came in for him. Now, a year and a half later and he looks at least as good as our other options at centre back. That to me says a lot about what Mourinho is working with.

 

[braineclipse]

If only we were warned about the need for a painful rebuild a while back, say June 2019...

I think that's fair to point out. I also think it's fair to point out that the timing of the stadium delay coinciding with a need for a rebuild was unfortunate and a difficult situation to handle.

I also think it's fair to point out that when funds became available there wasn't an established centre back, full back or defensive midfielder anywhere to be found in our massive spending spree.

None of that is on Mourinho.

 

[Raziel]

A lot are saying that we need a major squad overhaul, but I don't agree with that. I think we're in a similar position to what Liverpool was a few years ago.
We need a top-quality goalkeeper and at least one top quality CB (preferably two). Put those signings into the side from last night and we win the game easily.
It'll also be a top 4 side. I'd rather a few quality changes than a high churn of players in the next window.

No not a squad overhaul, a defensive overhaul.

- You can use the Pool example, VVD made Lovren useable for another season. A top level CB could help us get something out of the others for at least another season.
- We need a replacement for Lloris, age, decline, fact that he has absolutely no competition means that is a priority.
- We need to make a call on Davies/Doherty, the gap between them and Reguilon/Aurier is too big, perhaps we buy upcoming players as options/cover for FB

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A lot are saying that we need a major squad overhaul, but I don't agree with that. I think we're in a similar position to what Liverpool was a few years ago.
We need a top-quality goalkeeper and at least one top quality CB (preferably two). Put those signings into the side from last night and we win the game easily.
It'll also be a top 4 side. I'd rather a few quality changes than a high churn of players in the next window.

Just said the same on the Hugo thread (hadn’t seen this)

 

[Raziel]

I think that's fair to point out. I also think it's fair to point out that the timing of the stadium delay coinciding with a need for a rebuild was unfortunate and a difficult situation to handle.

I also think it's fair to point out that when funds became available there wasn't an established centre back, full back or defensive midfielder anywhere to be found in our massive spending spree.

None of that is on Mourinho.

Well, we have brought in what, 10+ players (not counting youngsters) since June 2019? PEH, Reguilon, Bale, Doherty, Vinicius, Rodon, Hart, Gio, Ndombele, Gedson, Sessegnon

The rebuild is happening and has been happening, it's just not done and the circumstances aren't helping (as you pointed out)

I think PEH & Reguilon has made people forget even if you buy players, it takes time to integrate them and get them at the right level (Son, Ndombele examples)

 

[DubSpur]

No not a squad overhaul, a defensive overhaul.

- You can use the Pool example, VVD made Lovren useable for another season. A top level CB could help us get something out of the others for at least another season.
- We need a replacement for Lloris, age, decline, fact that he has absolutely no competition means that is a priority.
- We need to make a call on Davies/Doherty, the gap between them and Reguilon/Aurier is too big, perhaps we buy upcoming players as options/cover for FB

Sessegnon will be back in the summer and looks like he's progressing and could replace Davies. It's also more of a like for like swap.
Doherty has only been here a season, I'd give him next season before writing him off (see Tanguy)
Your other two points I agree on

 

[braineclipse]

A lot are saying that we need a major squad overhaul, but I don't agree with that. I think we're in a similar position to what Liverpool was a few years ago.
We need a top-quality goalkeeper and at least one top quality CB (preferably two). Put those signings into the side from last night and we win the game easily.
It'll also be a top 4 side. I'd rather a few quality changes than a high churn of players in the next window.

Agreed, we need to continue the overhaul already in progress. Centre back will be high up the list. Depending on how Skipp is at this level another central midfielder perhaps. At some point a new goalkeeper.

I think we also have to look at some of the squad options, but priorities and all that.

In Sessegnon, GLC, Skipp, Rodon, maybe Tanganga, Bergwijn we have quite a lot of potential quality where progress could be made over a bit of time just by developing exciting players and getting them fit.

It looks a bit like crisis mode at times, but another good summer window could make a massive difference imo.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well, we have brought in what, 10+ players (not counting youngsters) since June 2019? PEH, Reguilon, Bale, Doherty, Vinicius, Rodon, Hart, Gio, Ndombele, Gedson, Sessegnon

The rebuild is happening and has been happening, it's just not done and the circumstances aren't helping (as you pointed out)

I think PEH & Reguilon has made people forget even if you buy players, it takes time to integrate them and get them at the right level (Son, Ndombele examples)

Yep
Dont forget 3 of them are loans two and only one has had any impact
But your right, people forget Tanguy took time and look at him now

 

[billyiddo]

Haven't you been saying repeatedly that we got that good defensive record by packing a lot of players behind the ball? Or was that someone else?

If you have to pack a lot of players behind the ball to make an otherwise shaky backline solid that will impact attacking play. Even though the problem becomes scoring goals the underlying problem might still be with the defenders.

The defensive record we had at the time was great/best in the league and yes i argued (correctly) that it was down to the tactics being used at that time - that doesn't mean that it follows that our defenders are so hopeless we can't play any other way, hard to argue in light of last night but it'll take more than one game conceding lots of goals with an attacking setup to convince me otherwise, especially when we have attacked just fine in other games without such a poor outcome - i think people are in danger of veering from one extreme to the other here. there's a middle ground and there's plenty of evidence in the results that suggests we can play a more attacking game against lesser teams. West Brom/Sheffield United/Leeds in our recent run of fixtures plus you could argue we created enough v Fulham too.

 

[braineclipse]

The defensive record we had at the time was great/best in the league and yes i argued (correctly) that it was down to the tactics being used at that time - that doesn't mean that it follows that our defenders are so hopeless we can't play any other way, hard to argue in light of last night but it'll take more than one game conceding lots of goals with an attacking setup to convince me otherwise, especially when we have attacked just fine in other games without such a poor outcome - i think people are in danger of veering from one extreme to the other here. there's a middle ground and there's plenty of evidence in the results that suggests we can play a more attacking game against lesser teams. West Brom/Sheffield United/Leeds in our recent run of fixtures plus you could argue we created enough v Fulham too.

Yesterday was a bit of a freak result. It's not like we concede 4 or 5 every game against them playing like that. Not enough to know for sure.

I don't think it's particularly extreme to say that if we leave our defenders more exposed, as we did yesterday, we will concede more goals. I'm not saying they're so hopeless that we can't play any other way. I mean Mourinho didn't set us up in a defensive fashion yesterday so he obviously doesn't see it as the only option either.

They're not hopeless, just not quite good enough. And to me at least it seems that their respective strengths and weaknesses aren't a good match making the whole better than the sum of it's parts. Meaning that they can look very good in some game conditions, not so much in others.

I hope we keep up a more attacking approach. City game aside. Rolling the dice on avoiding individual errors whilst somewhat exposed rather than rolling the dice on being clinical with a lack of creativity and defensive approach.

 

[Gazza]

Funny that a week ago when we lost to Chelsea and we were dire, the pundits rightly so questioned the team and mourinho ... this week the pundits have come out and said they feel sorry for mourinho for having players regularly brain fart ... not a whimper of discussion.

BTW I don't like pundits, just making a point.

 

[billyiddo]

Yesterday was a bit of a freak result. It's not like we concede 4 or 5 every game against them playing like that. Not enough to know for sure.

I don't think it's particularly extreme to say that if we leave our defenders more exposed, as we did yesterday, we will concede more goals. I'm not saying they're so hopeless that we can't play any other way. I mean Mourinho didn't set us up in a defensive fashion yesterday so he obviously doesn't see it as the only option either.

They're not hopeless, just not quite good enough. And to me at least it seems that their respective strengths and weaknesses aren't a good match making the whole better than the sum of it's parts. Meaning that they can look very good in some game conditions, not so much in others.

I hope we keep up a more attacking approach. City game aside. Rolling the dice on avoiding individual errors whilst somewhat exposed rather than rolling the dice on being clinical with a lack of creativity and defensive approach.

seems to me we're more or less agreement tbh