Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Bishop]

I’d argue you stop crosses by not losing the ball as much
We concede the ball because we have “reliable” players who treat the ball like a grenade
The easiest way to stop crosses is stop the opposition having the ball. That doesn’t work unless players want the all
I also don’t believe we face a higher volume of crosses to other sides but I’d have to check that
What I’ll add is the better sides in the league generally don’t attack through crossing which is probably why the sissoko tactic works vs them. Against the weaker sides it’s a genuine tactic and something to address. And as I’ve said you address it by keeping the ball.

I agree with the general them of your post re keeping the ball but I'm just adjusting to what I see Mourinho doing and finding acceptable.

I am hoping that he sees that having Bergwijn in the side and Ndombele deeper overall has a net benefit versus having Ndombele ahead of the play and Sissoko hindering our play deeper but I can't say I'm truly confident he will see it the same way we do.

 

[MKSpur]

Are Fulham?
Are pool?
Sheffield scored with a relatively small CF (he ain’t not big man)
Wolves? There not known for their corners

I was thinking maybe Goons would still be an exception to the rule.

I think as @Bishop says the issue is more our ability to deal with them. I read somewhere that crosses apparently are a 1 in 64 hit rate but of course there are so many variables - if you set up with a low block and concede ground then you have to be equipped to defend crosses, as in effect you are forcing the opponent to use that as a method of attack as the through ball has less space to thread into and there are more bodies to blocks shots. Ergo more goals will also likely be conceded this way, like a high press team will likely concede to more counter attack through balls.
I think it is fair to say that Toby doesn’t have a great leap but I think he does take good positions, Dier looks strong in the air when the ball is coming onto him but maybe needs to work on those coming from the side / backwards and Davies is not hugely experienced as a centre back. Rodon is potentially a plus for us in this area, maybe one more dominant centre half is the missing price if the jigsaw?
I agree that we also need to look at the source of the cross too - can we do more to to prevent it in the first place, especially the ones that get swung in from deep under little pressure. The positive is that if we can trace the only reason we aren’t a good few points clear is defending crosses, then it should be something I’d expect us to improve on through specific coaching.

I also wondered if the fact that we don’t have many players who are good at attacking crosses (we also have the lowest number of crosses made in the league this season) means we don’t get to practice them effectively. Maybe we need to pick up a couple of specialist journeymen target men solely for training drills!

 

[LincsSpur]

Where is our best chance of victory? Given that we have two excellent strikers, and perhaps the league's most exciting creative player, I believe it lies with not sitting in our own half offering lesser sides the ball and looking to break on them. My view. But this IS Joseball thus I suppose I should not be shocked...

Is it Joseball though?

He says not and tells that he wants us to kill teams off
Harry then comes out and says the same thing

But we to tend to sit back after scoring

Go figure!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I was thinking maybe Goons would still be an exception to the rule.

I think as @Bishop says the issue is more our ability to deal with them. I read somewhere that crosses apparently are a 1 in 64 hit rate but of course there are so many variables - if you set up with a low block and concede ground then you have to be equipped to defend crosses, as in effect you are forcing the opponent to use that as a method of attack as the through ball has less space to thread into and there are more bodies to blocks shots. Ergo more goals will also likely be conceded this way, like a high press team will likely concede to more counter attack through balls.
I think it is fair to say that Toby doesn’t have a great leap but I think he does take good positions, Dier looks strong in the air when the ball is coming onto him but maybe needs to work on those coming from the side / backwards and Davies is not hugely experienced as a centre back. Rodon is potentially a plus for us in this area, maybe one more dominant centre half is the missing price if the jigsaw?
I agree that we also need to look at the source of the cross too - can we do more to to prevent it in the first place, especially the ones that get swung in from deep under little pressure. The positive is that if we can trace the only reason we aren’t a good few points clear is defending crosses, then it should be something I’d expect us to improve on through specific coaching.

I also wondered if the fact that we don’t have many players who are good at attacking crosses (we also have the lowest number of crosses made in the league this season) means we don’t get to practice them effectively. Maybe we need to pick up a couple of specialist journeymen target men solely for training drills!

Can’t argue with any of this
Toby gets done in the air consistently and maybe that’s why he is out currently
Sanchez is weak
Dier is ok
Rodon seems to be very good so far (small sample)
Davies is ok

I was thinking about the goals we conceded again recently... even Leicester’s came form cross being poorly managed (corner for the penalty, and Vardy out jumping the very weak, static sissoko)

what I will say is also the headers we have conceded have all come from great crosses and great headers too. Things that are actually quite core to British football even if not necessarily scored by English players

as I’ve said I believe it’s a viable tactic for lesser sides but it was pool who did us with a corner, wolves and Leicester too

we have now had 3 big players say it’s not what their instructed to do, so why do it. Fear of making a mistake is a key thing for them

I’d also add that the opposition may see that “fear” as a weakness and therefore an opportunity.

 

[Bishop]

Can’t argue with any of this
Toby gets done in the air consistently and maybe that’s why he is out currently
Sanchez is weak
Dier is ok
Rodon seems to be very good so far (small sample)
Davies is ok

I was thinking about the goals we conceded again recently... even Leicester’s came form cross being poorly managed (corner for the pelanty, and Vardy out jumping the very weak, static sissoko)

what I will say is also the headers we have conceded have all come from great crosses and great headers too. Things that are actually quite core to British football even if not necessarily scored by English players

as I’ve said I believe it’s a viable tactic for lesser sides but it was pool who did us with a corner, wolves and Leicester too

we have now had 3 big players say it’s not what their instructed to do, so why do it. Fear of making a mistake is a key thing for them

I’d also add that the opposition may see that “fear” as a weakness and therefore an opportunity.

It's just a viable tactic Vs a team that fills it's box with bodies and closes through ball lanes. It's very rare to see a ball slid down the side of our CBs and for the striker to be in on goal. We are very good at marshalling those situations. So by default we are encouraging teams to go out wide and cross it in.

Then the pattern because more apparent and opposition teams know that attacking from the wide with crosses is a viable tactic so each opponent will at the very least have that in their locker knowing if all else fails Spurs have shown a chink in their armour in that respect.

So we need to keep the ball better under pressure, we also maybe need some better awareness of the attacking runs for the crosses and maybe try to stop them at source. The problem I see is as our default is to flood our box it is then very difficult to pick up the spare man out wide. We would need to change the central defensive setup to have that player free to close down the deeper or overlapping crossers.

I don't see them problems as insurmountable we can do things to mitigate the risk they pose but no matter what there's also going to be some danger. It's like pulling a duvet cover thats to short up and exposing your feet or down and exposing your chest.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's just a viable tactic Vs a team that fills it's box with bodies and closes through ball lanes. It's very rare to see a ball slid down the side of our CBs and for the striker to be in on goal. We are very good at marshalling those situations. So by default we are encouraging teams to go out wide and cross it in.

Then the pattern because more apparent and opposition teams know that attacking from the wide with crosses is a viable tactic so each opponent will at the very least have that in their locker knowing if all else fails Spurs have shown a chink in their armour in that respect.

So we need to keep the ball better under pressure, we also maybe need some better awareness of the attacking runs for the crosses and maybe try to stop them at source. The problem I see is as our default is to flood our box it is then very difficult to pick up the spare man out wide. We would need to change the central defensive setup to have that player free to close down the deeper or overlapping crossers.

I don't see them problems as insurmountable we can do things to mitigate the risk they pose but no matter what there's also going to be some danger. It's like pulling a duvet cover thats to short up and exposing your feet or down and exposing your chest.

Shouldn’t be a spare man out wide of our WF is a threat with the ball

 

[Raziel]

Let's watch that first paragraph closely. No-one is stupid. We know who we have and who he isn't. However when it happens time and time again in specific games, questions are there to be asked of the manager.

As for the second, I think (lack of winning) meteorology was always overplayed. I would argue our overall meteorology was excellent given what we dealt with for several years, where we lacked was at the final hurdle. We need Mourinho's experience there. We also need him to play to our strengths, which are not the likes of Sanchez. I appreciate what he is looking to do, but he needs to also engage our flair a bit more. Lots to be said on this but have to roll on...why don't you join us as a pod guest one week? You'd be a great guest/counter-point IMO...

There is a trend, I think it's about balance, I think it is about in game management in periods and yes fair ask would be could Jose not shake it up from bench but not sure if it's that simple. To me we probably manage the games in periods, some moments (e.g. beginning of a game, right after HT) we may be happy to sit deep, let the opponent expend energy, then grab back control of the game, so maybe Jose is giving the team 10-15 minutes according to plan and as a team we are not experienced at switching those gears (once we drop back, we find it difficult to take the game back). So as an observer, we think it's 20-30 minutes where the plan was 10-15 and the manager is waiting/trying to get the team to play out of those pressure moments. So far the only kick up the ass that is working is when we concede (which indicates it's in the players mentality).

I think mentality matters, not in the classic "oh, we always bottle it" way, but understanding what it takes to win over a season/cup, don't look 3 games ahead, win today's game, be more pragmatic with fouls, in game management. We have tripped up at a CL final, a League Cup final, a PL title race and 8 FA SF's (as a start), we often haven't looked prepared in those games, mentally, physically or tactically.

Happy to join at some point ..

 

[Bishop]

Shouldn’t be a spare man out wide of our WF is a threat with the ball

They have do pressure and support out wide but also seem tasked with pressuring the inside man as well. So you often see them press towards the inner player before the ball is passed out wide to the spare man who then then need to run towards to close their space

As I said with my analogy it is very difficult if not impossible to cover every player unless you use a man marking system but that then leaves you more susceptible to balls played through the lines and channels.

Setting up the way we do has some obvious benefits but with some downsides that we need to probably change personnel to address.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They have do pressure and support out wide but also seem tasked with pressuring the inside man as well. So you often see them press towards the inner player before the ball is passed out wide to the spare man who then then need to run towards to close their space

As I said with my analogy it is very difficult if not impossible to cover every player unless you use a man marking system but that then leaves you more susceptible to balls played through the lines and channels.

Setting up the way we do has some obvious benefits but with some downsides that we need to probably change personnel to address.

I mean more that the opposition may threaten less is we actually have a threat wide
They won’t commit as much for fear of getting done
You saw it at the weekend with Bergwein and son staying up too and Hugo’s ball out to Bergwein who then got fouled.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Is it Joseball though?

He says not and tells that he wants us to kill teams off
Harry then comes out and says the same thing

But we to tend to sit back after scoring

Go figure!

Joseball is not born out of just half time instructions....its his whole philosophy delivered from day 1. A team in his image, his vision.

(as most managers teams are)

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's just a viable tactic Vs a team that fills it's box with bodies and closes through ball lanes. It's very rare to see a ball slid down the side of our CBs and for the striker to be in on goal. We are very good at marshalling those situations. So by default we are encouraging teams to go out wide and cross it in.

Then the pattern because more apparent and opposition teams know that attacking from the wide with crosses is a viable tactic so each opponent will at the very least have that in their locker knowing if all else fails Spurs have shown a chink in their armour in that respect.

So we need to keep the ball better under pressure, we also maybe need some better awareness of the attacking runs for the crosses and maybe try to stop them at source. The problem I see is as our default is to flood our box it is then very difficult to pick up the spare man out wide. We would need to change the central defensive setup to have that player free to close down the deeper or overlapping crossers.

I don't see them problems as insurmountable we can do things to mitigate the risk they pose but no matter what there's also going to be some danger. It's like pulling a duvet cover thats to short up and exposing your feet or down and exposing your chest.

To simplify this.... the way we play when we are seeking our first goal, can we just not continue playing that way. The fact it has resulted in getting us a goal indicates its successful.

I think Jose does takes the opposition into consideration and makes more adjustments based on those considerations more than any other top 6 manager. I think that can manifest itself as worries, from the players pov, and in turn the opposition may sense that. Of course, Jose being risk adverse, limit mistakes and a 'hold on to what you have' type manager could add to the players mental state.

 

[Bishop]

I mean more that the opposition may threaten less is we actually have a threat wide
They won’t commit as much for fear of getting done
You saw it at the weekend with Bergwein and son staying up too and Hugo’s ball out to Bergwein who then got fouled.

To simplify this, the way we play when we are seeking our first goal, can we just not continue playing that way. The fact it has resulted in getting us a goal indicates its successful.

I think Jose does takes the opposition into consideration and makes more adjustments based on those considerations more than any other top 6 manager. I think that can manifest itself as worries, from the players pov, and in turn the opposition may sense that. Of course, Jose being risk adverse, limit mistakes and a 'hold on to what you have' type manager could add to the players mental state.

I agree with both of you and I would hope that is the direction we would now commit too. I just can't see that being the case. We might get a lineup similar to the SU game against other lower half teams. That's our best bet really.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree with both of you and I would hope that is the direction we would now commit too. I just can't see that being the case. We might get a lineup similar to the SU game against other lower half teams. That's our best bet really.

TBF that is where we have dropped points that we shouldn’t have

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I just can't see that being the case.

Oh...I agree with this.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Do you believe?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1350796429501952002

Sent from my SM-T865 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

It's good to see that. I really do hope it is true.

What I would like to see is Jose making some changes or at a minimum barking out orders from the technical area if and when the team do drop off and fail to carry out his instructions.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Territorial pressure and number of balls played in to dangerous goal scoring areas.

If you're just looking at saves made by the keeper then a lot of our low scoring wins this season were very fortunate indeed

The most frustrating thing about that Palace game was that as soon as Palace score we then start attacking and making chances again. We were the architects of our own downfall in those games against Palace, Wolves and Fulham I think and we would be sitting pretty with 6 more points had we just had more belief and a proper commanding centre back to move us up the pitch in those games as we started to retreat and concede possession.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Why doenst it?
It’s not like we’re conceding wordies ?
Their routine goals that arguably the team could defend better
Whereas some of ours are world class finishes

Personally I would rather concede worldies than routine goals. Conceding routine goals mean the team is weak defensively. There's not much you can do about worldies.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I agree so stop them crossing at source
But I’m also sure that crosses aren’t an affective way of scoring statistically
Arsenal hit 30 plus vs us and didn’t make us sweat. I mean it was a ridiculed comment from Arteta when he mentioned the crosses as a stat
We do need to be smarter when teams are pushing more against us. I’d argue that having more capable players will help as you see with teams like city. They can play there way out as everyone wants the ball and is comfortable with it

Arsenal don't really have the type of forwards who thrive on crosses though.... It is a good tactic against Arsenal to let them go wide and just protect the middle. Against Palace on the other hand, who have a centre forward who probably only thrives on crosses that isn't as good a tactic.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I’d argue you stop crosses by not losing the ball as much
We concede the ball because we have “reliable” players who treat the ball like a grenade
The easiest way to stop crosses is stop the opposition having the ball. That doesn’t work unless players want the all
I also don’t believe we face a higher volume of crosses to other sides but I’d have to check that
What I’ll add is the better sides in the league generally don’t attack through crossing which is probably why the sissoko tactic works vs them. Against the weaker sides it’s a genuine tactic and something to address. And as I’ve said you address it by keeping the ball.

If you have 10 or even 11 players behind the ball then it is almost impossible to keep it.

You are right that the easiest way to stop crosses is to stop the opposition having the ball, you cannot keep the ball adequately when the whole team is so deep. You can of course counter attack and any successful counter attack is likely to result in a reasonably high percentage scoring chance, but the percentage of times the counter gets beyond the first pass is also likely to be very low (as we have seen).

I noticed that against Sheff Utd on Sunday Son stayed up at the half way line pretty much all the time, on the rare occasions he did sprint to help out in defence, Bergwijn would then instead stay high. This was a definite difference to our gameplan when winning some of our games recently and it gave us another outlet to relieve pressure, not just in terms of having another body up there but also as the opposition had to consider the ball in behind, forcing them to drop off a little which made a little bit of space for our other players.

 

[Raziel]

To simplify this, the way we play when we are seeking our first goal, can we just not continue playing that way. The fact it has resulted in getting us a goal indicates its successful.

I think Jose does takes the opposition into consideration and makes more adjustments based on those considerations more than any other top 6 manager. I think that can manifest itself as worries, from the players pov, and in turn the opposition may sense that. Of course, Jose being risk adverse, limit mistakes and a 'hold on to what you have' type manager could add to the players mental state.

The question is, what are you risking to keep attacking? Jose is averse to taking risks without reward, hence no value in 5-0 vs. 3-0, and while it may be super frustrating in the context of a single game, his career shows he gets it right more often than not.

Again, I think the team is struggling in balance, a team with a WC defence could close out 1-0 games regularly, we don't have a WC defence, so is our balance 2-0 or 3-0?

We clearly (data backs it up) score more than most in 1st half, then what? should we keep at same pace, or be a little more selective in risk and if we get the 2nd/3rd, then we have option to shut up shop?