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Ingerlund

Chrissivad said:
I think he has done a great job, but I think Southgate has had his time, and it's probably time to start looking at new options
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Great job?

He's beaten a load of teams we should be beating (lost to a few too) and lost in all the big games against big teams.

Given the players at his disposal (rarely the ones he's picked) he should have done a lot better.
 
Ah lads, would ye stop. Ye have always had decent players and never been that good in tournaments.

Bobby Robson is treated as a legend. In 86, he only squeezed through the group stage having drawn with Morocco and lost to Portugal. Don’t fall for the Hand of GHod stuff. Argentina were much the better side that day. In 88, he lost all 3 games to Ireland, Holland and USSR. In 90, draws with Ireland, got battered by Belgium and lucked through with the last kick of extra time. In the quarters, again, needed a lot of fortune to beat Cameroon AET. They did play well in the semis but they were barely ordinary for the rest of the tournament.

Graham Taylor - Euro 92…less said the better.

Venables…semi final but very ordinary against Switzerland and very lucky against Spain in the quarters.

Hoddle, lost to Romania FFS which gave them Argentina in the second round.

Keegan…lost to Portugal and Romania in 2000.

Sven..finished second in a group that included Sweden in 2002. Out on pens to Portugal in 2004 and 2006.

Capello…struggled through a handy group in 2010 and got murdered by Germany.

Hodgson…out on pens in 2012, finished bottom of a group behind Costa Rica in 2014, go out to Iceland in 2016. fudging Iceland.

Southgate has done well and better than all those coaches above and his team hasn’t been that much better if better at all than some of those England sides.

Fact is, and I support England every tournament as long as they aren’t playing us, ye overestimate how good your players are and for decades you havent trusted ball playing midfielders.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Ah lads, would ye stop. Ye have always had decent players and never been that good in tournaments.

Bobby Robson is treated as a legend. In 86, he only squeezed through the group stage having drawn with Morocco and lost to Portugal. Don’t fall for the Hand of GHod stuff. Argentina were much the better side that day. In 88, he lost all 3 games to Ireland, Holland and USSR. In 90, draws with Ireland, got battered by Belgium and lucked through with the last kick of extra time. In the quarters, again, needed a lot of fortune to beat Cameroon AET. They did play well in the semis but they were barely ordinary for the rest of the tournament.

Graham Taylor - Euro 92…less said the better.

Venables…semi final but very ordinary against Switzerland and very lucky against Spain in the quarters.

Hoddle, lost to Romania FFS which gave them Argentina in the second round.

Keegan…lost to Portugal and Romania in 2000.

Sven..finished second in a group that included Sweden in 2002. Out on pens to Portugal in 2004 and 2006.

Capello…struggled through a handy group in 2010 and got murdered by Germany.

Hodgson…out on pens in 2012, finished bottom of a group behind Costa Rica in 2014, go out to Iceland in 2016. fudging Iceland.

Southgate has done well and better than all those coaches above and his team hasn’t been that much better if better at all than some of those England sides.

Fact is, and I support England every tournament as long as they aren’t playing us, ye overestimate how good your players are and for decades you havent trusted ball playing midfielders.
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I agree with a large portion of that however I am not sure its truly reflective of the times. In alot of those tournaments there were real hardcore generational teams, containing some of the best talent the games seen, ever....The same can't be said now

I can't compare Sven taking that side out against a Brazil laden with absolute start stuffed talent and Croatia or an Italy we were beating with a back line of a combined age of 5090
 
Grays_1890 said:
I agree with a large portion of that however I am not sure its truly reflective of the times. In alot of those tournaments there were real hardcore generational teams, containing some of the best talent the games seen, ever....The same can't be said now

I can't compare Sven taking that side out against a Brazil laden with absolute start stuffed talent and Croatia or an Italy we were beating with a back line of a combined age of 5090
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And there is some merit in that. But why did they play Brazil? Because they couldn't beat an ordinary Sweden team or a poor Nigeria team and finished second in the group.

2004...why did they play Portugal? Because they managed to fudge away a 1 goal lead against France with 2 mins to go and lost 2-1.

2006...laboured to wins over Paraguay, Trinidad and Ecuador. They never looked a good team in that tournament either.

The sides people are saying "well Southgate is only beating ordinary sides" are the ones who every single one of your managers over the last 40 years have struggled to beat or have dropped points against.
 
DeanoAustin said:
And there is some merit in that. But why did they play Brazil? Because they couldn't beat an ordinary Sweden team or a poor Nigeria team and finished second in the group.

2004...why did they play Portugal? Because they managed to fudge away a 1 goal lead against France with 2 mins to go and lost 2-1.

2006...laboured to wins over Paraguay, Trinidad and Ecuador. They never looked a good team in that tournament either.

The sides people are saying "well Southgate is only beating ordinary sides" are the ones who every single one of your managers over the last 40 years have struggled to beat or have dropped points against.
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But those lesser sides were alot better back then than they are now IMO. Romania team in 1998 had some seriously world class players, arguably a handful and some other serious players. The same could be said for the Sweden's in the days and I don't think the example of France is that good given we were underdogs in that game (if its the game King played MF) when they had the likes of Henry.

That standard from all levels has dropped like a stone where as IMO our gap to those previously elite sides has shrunk significantly with the level of players we have had/have.

And its not just the point of who we have beaten and lost to, its the fact that in three massive games when everyone and their dog could see that the games were changing, Southgate has stood there like a statue and done absolutely nothing to change things, I don't think its harsh at all to question his skill and experience on that point, I mean we would absolutely do the same with Spurs so its not just about over believing in the players (although I do agree we have 100% done that in the past)

He was a rank average club manager who is an OK international boss. I don't think that's a bad or unfair assessment TBH
 
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scaramanga said:
Great job?

He's beaten a load of teams we should be beating (lost to a few too) and lost in all the big games against big teams.

Given the players at his disposal (rarely the ones he's picked) he should have done a lot better.
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there is a couple more now, with Bellingham particularly, but to be fair to Southgate, most of his squads have been Harry Kane and a load of brick
 
Grays_1890 said:
But those lesser sides were alot better back then than they are now IMO. Romania team in 1998 had some seriously world class players, arguably a handful and some other serious players. The same could be said for the Sweden's in the days and I don't think the example of France is that good given we were underdogs in that game (if its the game King played MF) when they had the likes of Henry.

That standard from all levels has dropped like a stone where as IMO our gap to those previously elite sides has shrunk significantly with the level of players we have had/have.

And its not just the point of who we have beaten and lost to, its the fact that in three massive games when everyone and their dog could see that the games were changing, Southgate has stood there like a statue and done absolutely nothing to change things, I don't think its harsh at all to question his skill and experience on that point, I mean we would absolutely do the same with Spurs so its not just about over believing in the players (although I do agree we have 100% done that in the past)

He was a rank average club manager who is an OK international boss. I don't think that's a bad or unfair assessment TBH
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This is the Romania team in 98 - not many world class players at that point. Hagi was 33 and playing for Galatasary.

Bogdan Stelea; Dan Petrescu, Gheorghe Popescu, Liviu Ciobotariu, Constantin Galca; Dorinel Munteanu, Gheorghe Hagi, Gabriel Popescu, Iulian Filipescu; Viorel Moldovan, Adrian Ilie.

This is the Swedish team in 2002 - not a lot of quality in there really aside from Ljungberg and Larsson:

Hedman, Mellberg, Mjallby, Jakobsson, Lucic, Linderoth, Alexandersson, Ljungberg, Magnus Svensson (Anders Svensson 56), Allback (Andreas Andersson 80), Larsson.

King played against France but played CB alongside rSol. The midfield was the tried and trusted Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes and Beckham. And, yeah, it's a good France team but at 1 up with a couple of minutes to go, you should be closing out the game and certainly not losing.

Point is, England have always struggled against ordinary teams as evidenced above. I'd agree with your criticism of Southgate. I never rated him much at club level and he's very passive in games. I think that's fair. But, objectively, he's been your second best manager of all time and some of the sweeping statements about him being useless are very unfair and don't stand up to scrutiny.
 
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DeanoAustin said:
Point is, England have always struggled against ordinary teams as evidenced above. I'd agree with your criticism of Southgate. I never rated him much at club level and he's very passive in games. I think that's fair. But, objectively, he's been your second best manager of all time and some of the sweeping statements about him being useless are very unfair and don't stand up to scrutiny.
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Those teams are no where near ordinary in comparison to todays like for likes and as I say the even greater sides are an absolute shell of their past (Brazil, Germany, Spain etc)

As I say he has done ok, the changes in the landscape has attributed to his "success" more than his talents for which I think he is limited at the very top level.

At least we agree on the last part, his 29% win rate at Boro for which he managed to get these jobs, even via the U21s, just sums him up.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Ah lads, would ye stop. Ye have always had decent players and never been that good in tournaments.

Bobby Robson is treated as a legend. In 86, he only squeezed through the group stage having drawn with Morocco and lost to Portugal. Don’t fall for the Hand of GHod stuff. Argentina were much the better side that day. In 88, he lost all 3 games to Ireland, Holland and USSR. In 90, draws with Ireland, got battered by Belgium and lucked through with the last kick of extra time. In the quarters, again, needed a lot of fortune to beat Cameroon AET. They did play well in the semis but they were barely ordinary for the rest of the tournament.

Graham Taylor - Euro 92…less said the better.

Venables…semi final but very ordinary against Switzerland and very lucky against Spain in the quarters.

Hoddle, lost to Romania FFS which gave them Argentina in the second round.

Keegan…lost to Portugal and Romania in 2000.

Sven..finished second in a group that included Sweden in 2002. Out on pens to Portugal in 2004 and 2006.

Capello…struggled through a handy group in 2010 and got murdered by Germany.

Hodgson…out on pens in 2012, finished bottom of a group behind Costa Rica in 2014, go out to Iceland in 2016. fudging Iceland.

Southgate has done well and better than all those coaches above and his team hasn’t been that much better if better at all than some of those England sides.

Fact is, and I support England every tournament as long as they aren’t playing us, ye overestimate how good your players are and for decades you havent trusted ball playing midfielders.
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I’m not sure I agree Argentina were better than us in 1986 but clearly we’ve never been the best team in any tournament and that includes 1966 (West Germany were much better).

We’ve also suffered some brutally poor reffing decisions and then hobbled ourselves with poor discipline in big games (Gazza, Beckham, Rooney, penalty shootouts).

I don’t think we ever lost a game we deserved to win, and just as rarely do we win when we should lose.
 
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