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Hillsborough Disaster

Re the general policing of games.
I've been to one football match in 20 years, rather ironically at the lane last year when we lost to WBA 1-0. The difference to when I first attended matches was incredible.
From about 82 to 92 I regularly attended matches in Glasgow, including several old firm games at both ibrox and Celtic park and even cup semis and finals. I can remember vividly the abuse the police would get purely because they were police. Everything from being spat on to being pelted with tinkle filled lucozade bottles. if that happened to you would you have any time for the hordes of fans.
Speaking generally about the previous comments on policing at games posters have attended, NOT hillsborough.
 
There is a lot of blame to go around. The latest "truth" is that it was all the fault of David Crompton, that doesn't sit right with me.

I'm sure we've all seen pathe reels of WHL in the 50's and 60's identical trench coats and hats on every attendant, the odd clacker or whistle, no fences though, they didn't go up until later, when they were needed.

I was a kid in the 80's, I went to games with my dad, quiet ones, Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Exeter, always in the seated areas, and we never took the train, despite my dad being a railway man, he knew what happened on the specials, he knew what happened at the big clubs, he wasn't letting me anywhere near that.

Denying the rampant hooliganism of the 80's is no less a lie than the sun's sensationalism. The policing of the time was a product of the society of the time.
 
scaramanga said:
In their shoes I'd be grieving quietly, not forcing every poor fudgeer who opens a newspaper or turns on a TV to hear about it. I'd manage that without creating a victim culture and would avoid being vindictive towards people who were just trying to do their jobs.
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So, if your loved one had been the sole victim, we'd never have known the truth, then? And we can take it that you'd have been quite sanguine about their being slaughtered in the press, and deliberately portrayed in the media as a drunken, ticketless thug, and the architect of their own fate. You'd just accept everyone thinking they deserved it, would you? All in the name of preserving the jobs of those whose responsibility it was to ensure that nothing of the sort happened? Just asking, but Christ, if I were in your family, I'd hope I'd never have to rely on you to grow a pair.
 
galeforce said:
There is a lot of blame to go around. The latest "truth" is that it was all the fault of David Crompton, that doesn't sit right with me.

I'm sure we've all seen pathe reels of WHL in the 50's and 60's identical trench coats and hats on every attendant, the odd clacker or whistle, no fences though, they didn't go up until later, when they were needed.

I was a kid in the 80's, I went to games with my dad, quiet ones, Norwich, Ipswich, Colchester, Exeter, always in the seated areas, and we never took the train, despite my dad being a railway man, he knew what happened on the specials, he knew what happened at the big clubs, he wasn't letting me anywhere near that.

Denying the rampant hooliganism of the 80's is no less a lie than the sun's sensationalism. The policing of the time was a product of the society of the time.
Click to expand...
My first "proper" game was a cup final replay at hampden in the enclosure. I was 12 and I'll never forget it! It was terrifying! Walking along the sanded floor under the stand and the noise was amazing, all these half drunk bears singing. Every time I watched gladiator and it comes to that first fight when they are all waiting to out I get flashbacks, that's what felt like. The power of the surges were unbelievable, you were helpless.
How times have changed, almost entirely for the good, but not all.
 
mudshark said:
So, if your loved one had been the sole victim, we'd never have known the truth, then? And we can take it that you'd have been quite sanguine about their being slaughtered in the press, and deliberately portrayed in the media as a drunken, ticketless thug, and the architect of their own fate. You'd just accept everyone thinking they deserved it, would you? All in the name of preserving the jobs of those whose responsibility it was to ensure that nothing of the sort happened? Just asking, but Christ, if I were in your family, I'd hope I'd never have to rely on you to grow a pair.
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That's not grieving.

Everyone grieves differently, there's no right or wrong way scara. Each lose affects people in different ways and we all need to deal with it in our own way.
I would want justice, full justice. Personally I don't think that's what those victims have now.
 
milo said:
Everybody should watch this.
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It's a horrific watch and there is no question the police fudged up and lied about it.

It's not an anatomy of the disaster though, it's an accurate description of a terrible conclusion, there is no explanation as to why football grounds had fences and pens erected the first place or why the police had the attitude to supporters that they did.

It was a tragedy decades in the making.
 
mudshark said:
So, if your loved one had been the sole victim, we'd never have known the truth, then? And we can take it that you'd have been quite sanguine about their being slaughtered in the press, and deliberately portrayed in the media as a drunken, ticketless thug, and the architect of their own fate. You'd just accept everyone thinking they deserved it, would you? All in the name of preserving the jobs of those whose responsibility it was to ensure that nothing of the sort happened? Just asking, but Christ, if I were in your family, I'd hope I'd never have to rely on you to grow a pair.
Click to expand...
If it were all false I'd put it right but not in front of tv cameras or in the press. Especially not with repeated clichéd shots of me dabbing at one eye with a tissue etc etc.

There are standards to which we should all hold ourselves, and a sense of decorum is the very minimum we should look to attain.
 
glasgowspur said:
That's not grieving.

Everyone grieves differently, there's no right or wrong way scara. Each lose affects people in different ways and we all need to deal with it in our own way.
I would want justice, full justice. Personally I don't think that's what those victims have now.
Click to expand...

Grief is a given. The coordinated effort to rubbish the victims and their families and thereby forestall the truth emerging is the point of the present discussion.
 
scaramanga said:
If it were all false I'd put it right but not in front of tv cameras or in the press. Especially not with repeated clichéd shots of me dabbing at one eye with a tissue etc etc.

There are standards to which we should all hold ourselves, and a sense of decorum is the very minimum we should look to attain.
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There from Liverpool, they teach em how to cry and moan at school, it is the lesson right before stealing peoples hub caps.
 
scaramanga said:
If it were all false I'd put it right but not in front of tv cameras or in the press. Especially not with repeated clichéd shots of me dabbing at one eye with a tissue etc etc.

There are standards to which we should all hold ourselves, and a sense of decorum is the very minimum we should look to attain.
Click to expand...

I think we must be very different.
 
glasgowspur said:
That's not grieving.

Everyone grieves differently, there's no right or wrong way scara. Each lose affects people in different ways and we all need to deal with it in our own way.
I would want justice, full justice. Personally I don't think that's what those victims have now.
Click to expand...
There is a wrong way, it's the one that involves inflicting the rest of the world with their grief every time some lazy reporter sticks a camera in front of them.
 
scaramanga said:
There is a wrong way, it's the one that involves inflicting the rest of the world with their grief every time some lazy reporter sticks a camera in front of them.
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In my opinion it's the lazy reporter that's to blame, not the poor grieving soul being taken advantage of.
Grief does strange things to people, and I think it's harsh to judge them on it.
 
scaramanga said:
There is a wrong way, it's the one that involves inflicting the rest of the world with their grief every time some lazy reporter sticks a camera in front of them.
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I'm confused. You appear to be saying that publicity, which is the ONLY way that the truth would ever have emerged, is the problem.
 
scaramanga said:
There is a wrong way, it's the one that involves inflicting the rest of the world with their grief every time some lazy reporter sticks a camera in front of them.
Click to expand...

I agree.

Anything to continue dragging this on. How does that song go...Always the victims..it's never your fault.
 
glasgowspur said:
My first "proper" game was a cup final replay at hampden in the enclosure. I was 12 and I'll never forget it! It was terrifying! Walking along the sanded floor under the stand and the noise was amazing, all these half drunk bears singing. Every time I watched gladiator and it comes to that first fight when they are all waiting to out I get flashbacks, that's what felt like. The power of the surges were unbelievable, you were helpless.
How times have changed, almost entirely for the good, but not all.
Click to expand...

I remember being young and foolish and envying games like that, how's that for stupid.

We take for granted how wonderful and safe football is now, my kids are still too young but I have friends who take their 7/8 yr olds every other week, all seater stadiums, glossy sky coverage, and probably the inflated ticket pricing, they have rescued English football.

Let's not forget that Hillsborough happened 4 years into a continental ban on English clubs, we had an undeniable problem.
 
mudshark said:
I'm confused. You appear to be saying that publicity, which is the ONLY way that the truth would ever have emerged, is the problem.
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A private law suit would have done the same. So would a private investigation or lobbying.

There's no need to be the story unless one chooses to.
 
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