Hillsborough Disaster

[Grays_1890]

Is not breaking into a ground without tickets a form of hooliganism? Doing what you want regardless of the rules?

 

[Libero]

What I don't get and in no way shape or form is this sarcastic, what I don't get and if someone can shed light on it please do...

If you go to a game without a ticket, break into the ground and as a result cause overcrowding surely by definition, breaking the law...to start the domino effect which resulted in the deaths, you have to be considered part of the blame, surely? If you turn up without a ticket you know its wrong to go into the game, some will say thats a very simple view but is that not correct? 30 year old men who should know better not? Or is it a case of people saying "well that was the done thing, it was the 80's" I mean its equally a cynical view to say "well thats how it was then" because the counter argument would be "well policing was like that back then"

Thats why I believe there is elements of blame on a number of heads....

They should but the argument I would put back is that in terms of the event of the day, can you beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that numbers of fans without tickets were on a large enough scale that they helped cause the disaster? No one can possibly say that beyond a reasonable doubt in my mind because no one has any concrete figures as to how many people didn't have tickets so whilst I would agree it is important to bear that in mind, I don't personally think the number that were without tickets would have caused an issue had the rights steps been taken to close that tunnel. In fact, even if every single person were proved to have a ticket and no one who shouldn't have been there was there, that disaster would have still occurred just purely on the way it panned out with the directing of people into the two central pens.

I don't disagree with anyone who feels that perhaps a number of factors on all sides have contributed to the disaster but there were some serious failings of control and protocol on the day and some clearly illegal and corrupt practices within the evidence gathering that potentially stretch all the way to the coroner initially appointed, Stefan Popper. I think it deserves to be investigated and if wrongdoing is proven then those people should face the consequences.

 

[Libero]

Is not breaking into a ground without tickets a form of hooliganism? Doing what you want regardless of the rules?

It would be but as I have stated above, come to me with concrete numbers and their impact and I will gladly listen. No one can because no one has any idea just how much of a problem on the day that was because no cordons were put in place to check. People can speculate on their own experience where they have known a few people to do that at a game they went to but no one can say with any degree of certainty what numbers were ticketless.

 

[Grays_1890]

It would be but as I have stated above, come to me with concrete numbers and their impact and I will gladly listen. No one can because no one has any idea just how much of a problem on the day that was because no cordons were put in place to check. People can speculate on their own experience where they have known a few people to do that at a game they went to but no one can say with any degree of certainty what numbers were ticketless.

Overcrowding by nature would suggest that the numbers were enough to cause the deaths? Otherwise it would not have happened surely?

 

[milo]

What I don't get and in no way shape or form is this sarcastic, what I don't get and if someone can shed light on it please do...

If you go to a game without a ticket, break into the ground and as a result cause overcrowding surely by definition, breaking the law...to start the domino effect which resulted in the deaths, you have to be considered part of the blame, surely? If you turn up without a ticket you know its wrong to go into the game, some will say thats a very simple view but is that not correct? 30 year old men who should know better not? Or is it a case of people saying "well that was the done thing, it was the 80's" I mean its equally a cynical view to say "well thats how it was then" because the counter argument would be "well policing was like that back then"

Thats why I believe there is elements of blame on a number of heads....

Other parts of the ground were empty. Depending on where ticketless fans were standing, when the gate was opened by the police, they could have been pushed by the crowd into the already full Leppings Lane.

Have you watched the video on Guardian website that was linked to a couple of pages back?

 

[Grays_1890]

But the point is ticketless fans....

 

[Baleforce]

David Crompton isn't suspended because of his role within the tragedy, he wasn't a serving officer with South Yorks Police at the time and therefore it is being tagged as his fault. He is being suspended because the PCC has lost confidence in him as a result of local public outcry over emails he sent as recently as 2013 completely at odds with the 'official' acceptance of their performance on the day and the fact officers went to the inquests were being overtly aggressive in their defence of obvious wrongdoing rather than attempting to help the inquests reach their findings. It would appear that the inquests could have taken half as long with a bit more humility from SYP and the evidence they have given. It is just one persons fault, it was a perfect storm of sorts but certainly a select few are culpable in terms of their decision making and an even larger number should be facing prison for misconduct in public office which for me is actually much more of an offence than the failing to act on the day.

I don't understand where you get this idea that people are denying that hooliganism existed throughout the 1980s. No one on this thread has suggested that and quite frankly hooliganism had nothing to do with what occurred on the day. It was responsible for having fences there but does that mean it is responsible for an area being continuously overfilled regardless? I would have thought having a physical barrier at the front would focus one's mind on making sure certain areas didnnt get too full.

Thank you for the correction, I got my David's mixed up.

Hillsborough Inquests: Q7: Jury has ruled there was NO behaviour by football supporters which caused or contributed to the disaster.

The behaviour of football fans in the 70's and 80's was the direct cause of fencing.

 

[Libero]

Overcrowding by nature would suggest that the numbers were enough to cause the deaths? Otherwise it would not have happened surely?

The two central pens were overcrowded whilst the rest of the terracing wasn't crowded at all in certain places. The Capacity of the terrace was overestimated as well so more tickets than the terrace could take would have been sold. If I fill a concourse at WHL with people from the South lower tier and funnel them all into one area of that concourse in the South Stand say between blocks 33 and 35 but leave the area around 32 completely empty then it will get overcrowded but guess what, they all have tickets.

 

[Libero]

Thank you for the correction, I got my David's mixed up.



The behaviour of football fans in the 70's and 80's was the direct cause of fencing.

I agree it was and never said it wasn't.

 

[Libero]

But the point is ticketless fans....

But the point is you cannot prove there were any? And why can't you? Because the Police failed to set up checks and cordons to prevent ticketless fans despite having done so in 1988 for the same match at the same venue with the same two teams.

 

[Grays_1890]

The behaviour of football fans in the 70's and 80's was the direct cause of fencing.

And that is a massive point of fact, fencing did not kill anyone...

 

[Baleforce]

I agree it was and never said it wasn't.

Ok, my issue is that football fan behaviour has been exonerated by the inquest incorrectly, the inquiry should have gone further, deeper into the issues of hooliganism and the polices response playbook, however, its become a people pleasing exercise and the blame has been shifted 100% onto another group (who of course are partly culpable), nothing in life is so black and white.

 

[mudshark]

Actually, what I said isn't quite true - none of those things would have resulted in the same outcome.

Only a public witch hunt could result in the outcome we currently have. Any of my options would have come to a far more balanced conclusion. These are angry scousers though, there's no room for nuanced opinions.

And after your private action had been laughed at and thrown out, I ask again, would you remain content for your family to have been vilified in the press?

 

[Grays_1890]

Ok, my issue is that football fan behaviour has been exonerated by the inquest incorrectly, the inquiry should have gone further, deeper into the issues of hooliganism and the polices response playbook, however, its become a people pleasing exercise and the blame has been shifted 100% onto another group (who of course are partly culpable), nothing in life is so black and white.

This is totally my sticking point on it all

Its gone from "its the fans fault" to "Its the Police fault" and there seems to be no middle ground to actually say anything else and I am with you, its not just black and white.

 

[scaramanga]

And after your private action had been laughed at and thrown out,

Why would that happen? It didn't happen to this silly little inquest and its "Now go away and STFU" conclusions.

I ask again, would you remain content for your family to have been vilified in the press?

I'm not sure what I'd do if that happened. One thing I wouldn't do is bring shame upon my entire family by making our grief a public spectacle.

I assume you're a member of the younger generation for whom this public grieving thing is normal?

 

[Libero]

Ok, my issue is that football fan behaviour has been exonerated by the inquest incorrectly, the inquiry should have gone further, deeper into the issues of hooliganism and the polices response playbook, however, its become a people pleasing exercise and the blame has been shifted 100% onto another group (who of course are partly culpable), nothing in life is so black and white.

I think though in fairness that would have been a much longer, protracted inquest that would have gone beyond the remit of what was really being debated. I agree that a full debate has to be had about the impact of hooliganism throughout the 70s and 80s because I feel that we as supporters are treated to that standard on occasion to this day. I would disagree that it has become a people pleasing exercise, I think the things that have been found out subsequent to the tragedy are actually more of a concern than the performance on the day and I think that it is right that those are brought to book. It would be difficult to go into percentages blame wise and what's the point but I personally feel the police are more culpable than any other party in this disaster but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be prosecuted. Each individual performance or lack of should be scrutinised and should be held to account and if it is deemed that it falls way below what we should reasonably expect from a senior officer then punishment should fit the crime which is that people died unintentionally as a result of that performance.

As I said earlier in this thread, I never ever encounter Met Police at any away game I go to with Spurs and yet given it being a London derby you would I would do. They know how police across multi sets of supporters with differing allegiances because they do it every single week. Police up North leave a lot to be desired and need to understand that this is not the 1970s anymore and I don't need to be herded onto a train 2 hours before my booked one just because I come from London and support Spurs

 

[scaramanga]

then punishment should fit the crime which is that people died unintentionally as a result of that performance.

People dying isn't the crime, it's the result. The crime is making a mistake - not something that should usually be punished with the prison sentences that imbalanced halfwits keep shrieking for.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Can we at least change the Liverpool thread title back from being "Victimpool" please?
I think that title in itself sullies this site; by all means moan about Liverpool and their fans, but that title shows full disrespect for the 96 given what has happened this week.
Any arguments about Hillsborough, Heysel etc can be kept here imo

 

[Libero]

Why would that happen? It didn't happen to this silly little inquest and its "Now go away and STFU" conclusions.


I'm not sure what I'd do if that happened. One thing I wouldn't do is bring shame upon my entire family by making our grief a public spectacle.

I assume you're a member of the younger generation for whom this public grieving thing is normal?

Scara, You are coming across as quite nasty at times with this thread. It is perfectly fine to disagree but you seem to have a real venom which doesn't make any sense. It is a delicate subject where people have lost their life and the very decorum that talk about should be displayed by you when discussing it imo. A number of families relating to Hillsborough are fairly anonymous and are rarely, if at all, interviewed by the press in any capacity to make their grieving public so I think that is an unfair attack on the broader number.

 

[scaramanga]

Scara, You are coming across as quite nasty at times with this thread. It is perfectly fine to disagree but you seem to have a real venom which doesn't make any sense. It is a delicate subject where people have lost their life and the very decorum that talk about should be displayed by you when discussing it imo. A number of families relating to Hillsborough are fairly anonymous and are rarely, if at all, interviewed by the press in any capacity to make their grieving public so I think that is an unfair attack on the broader number.

They're not the ones I'm talking about and I have no issue with them. It's the noisy chippy scousers (many of whom have nothing to do with the event other than supporting Victimpool) that I have an issue with.