Hillsborough Disaster

[Baleforce]

to echo @scaramanga and @glasgowspur, the trouble makers, of which there were unquestionably many at every single football match of the era, seem to have been completely exonerated from any personal responsibility

any spurs fan who bribed a turnstile operator to be given entry without a ticket is a stupid clam, it shows the kind of selfish entitlement still prevalent in football fans today, many think they have a right to something, to be somewhere, to be heard, that they somehow have a degree of ownership because they have decided to associate with a particular business, its ridiculous

 

[Rorschach]

There are some truly shameful opinions in this thread. I think I'll take my leave of this forum for a while.

 

[mudshark]

If all people were sensible then there would be no need for crowd management and effective policing. People are expected to behave sensibly but it's natural that the civilians will make mistakes at such an event. That is why there are so many police, why the stadiums have safety checks, why crowd management is trained to police and stewards. The crowd behaved as expected and the authorities messed up and are accountable for the deaths. It really is that simple.

...and why the authorities have an official duty of care, which is why it's absolutely right that they are held to a different standard. There was very little accountability back then. What there was in its place was a closing of ranks and the very public rubbishing of anyone with a genuine grievance seeking redress. The fact it's taken best part of thirty years for the truth to be recognised shows how very slowly things change in that regard. Social Darwinist mongs, clinging to rubbish about ticketless extras and bovver boys, what fuсking detestable crap. Just making themselves look ridiculous.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Certainly worth watching.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video

 

[Libero]

I find some of the opinions on this quite staggering and seem to be nothing other than based on a geographical dislike of people from that part of the country. I am a Londoner and I will admit I make plenty of comments and have a bit of an issue at times with a northern perception of my lifestyle and opportunities but that doesn't mean my judgement will be clouded by sheer bloody-mindedness. People have to put themselves in someone else's shoes and really think how they would feel if they were on the receiving end

Those in charge on the day have to now justify their decisions and why they didn't instigate actions such as shutting the tunnel before opening the gate and if those arguments aren't satisfactory and don't meet the required standard for a senior police officer then they will likely be going to prison and rightly so. Nobody is saying they deliberately led and forced people in to kill them but that is why we have manslaughter. A death that is caused without the final intention that couldn't have necessarily been foreseen. Add into that the proven changes of statement that at least are misconduct in public office and at worst, Perjury, then I fail to see how anyone can say that people shouldn't at least be tried if enough evidence is there for committing those offences.

The whole argument regarding ticketless fans being responsible and all fans that created that culture have blood on their hands is a weak and lazy one designed to abdicate those in positions of responsibility of that very important element of their job regardless of whether they were doing their best. Their very best fell very much below what anyone would expect on that day in terms of their operations and people were clearly in positions that their abilities weren't able to discharge to a standard that anyone would reasonably expect. The culture of the day was the culture of the day, nothing can be done about that but it isn't a race to the bottom and it certainly doesn't mean that Police officers, certainly senior ones, shouldn't be held to a higher standard of decision making compared an average football fan. It is what they were/are paid for and if they are not capable of it then these are the things that can happen.

 

[scaramanga]

I find some of the opinions on this quite staggering and seem to be nothing other than based on a geographical dislike of people from that part of the country. I am a Londoner and I will admit I make plenty of comments and have a bit of an issue at times with a northern perception of my lifestyle and opportunities but that doesn't mean my judgement will be clouded by sheer bloody-mindedness. People have to put themselves in someone else's shoes and really think how they would feel if they were on the receiving end

Can't speak for anyone else but my low opinion of scousers comes largely from their reaction to Hillsborough, not the other way around.

In their shoes I'd be grieving quietly, not forcing every poor fudger who opens a newspaper or turns on a TV to hear about it. I'd manage that without creating a victim culture and would avoid being vindictive towards people who were just trying to do their jobs.

Those in charge on the day have to now justify their decisions and why they didn't instigate actions such as shutting the tunnel before opening the gate and if those arguments aren't satisfactory and don't meet the required standard for a senior police officer then they will likely be going to prison and rightly so.

Ever fudged up at work before? I have. Almost everyone I know has. I'll bet you have too.

Prison would be ridiculously over the top and only goes to show what perfection whinging scousers have turned this whole debate into.

Nobody is saying they deliberately led and forced people in to kill them but that is why we have manslaughter. A death that is caused without the final intention that couldn't have necessarily been foreseen.

That's precisely what a lot of scousers have been intimating and I've certainly heard the word "murder" quite often in this debate.

Add into that the proven changes of statement that at least are misconduct in public office and at worst, Perjury, then I fail to see how anyone can say that people shouldn't at least be tried if enough evidence is there for committing those offences.

When you fudged up at work (and I know you have, we all have) did you try and cover your arse? Do anything to make sure the brick didn't land in your lap?

Again, everyone has.

The whole argument regarding ticketless fans being responsible and all fans that created that culture have blood on their hands is a weak and lazy one designed to abdicate those in positions of responsibility of that very important element of their job regardless of whether they were doing their best. Their very best fell very much below what anyone would expect on that day in terms of their operations and people were clearly in positions that their abilities weren't able to discharge to a standard that anyone would reasonably expect. The culture of the day was the culture of the day, nothing can be done about that but it isn't a race to the bottom and it certainly doesn't mean that Police officers, certainly senior ones, shouldn't be held to a higher standard of decision making compared an average football fan. It is what they were/are paid for and if they are not capable of it then these are the things that can happen.

The culture is massively important because it forms the basis upon which those in charge made their decisions that day.

Hillsborough wouldn't happen at the opera. It wouldn't happen in Waitrose. Football fans were often violent, disorderly and dangerous and had to be treated as such. When viewed through that lens, many of the decisions made make plenty of sense.

 

[clownfoot]

I'm shocked and saddened by some of the things I've read on here. 96 people died and the police, media and government in collusion with a media mogul diverted the blame for over a quarter of a century. I opened this thread expecting to see some people had accepted the decisions of a jury that had heard two years worth of evidence, but instead baseless stereotypes perpetuated by Murdoch owned press still seem prevalent and overriding.

Shameful

 

[spitshine]

I am not sure if it's appropriate to bring up and some will say not relevant but it would be interesting to know how the Heysel disaster is portrayed on Merseyside.

Just a point, wasn't this just as tragic, but rarely do you ever hear about this anymore.

 

[scaramanga]

I am not sure if it's appropriate to bring up and some will say not relevant but it would be interesting to know how the Heysel disaster is portrayed on Merseyside.

Just a point, wasn't this just as tragic, but rarely do you ever hear about this anymore.

You're not allowed to mention Heysel on Merseyside. If you do then you're A Hillsborough Denier and a puppet of the police, the Sun and Thatcher.

Merseyside rules:

Hillsborough = sad
Munich = funny
Heysel = didn't happen

 

[glasgowspur]

I haven't seen anyone on here say that the police were faultless or shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
But there's plenty saying that the fans are not.
I have issue with that.
I repeat, my deepest sympathies to those killed and their families and friends who are grieving. They are the innocents.
The ticketless fans and those who left to the last minute to enter the and continued to do so when something was obviously wrong should also be accountable.


Finally, this is an Internet forum and I suspect few of us know each other beyond what is posted on here so we really aren't in any position to throw around the accusations of bias or bigotry that are appearing here.
Don't judge people you barely know on their opinions on a very emotive subject.

 

[parklane1]

I haven't seen anyone on here say that the police were faultless or shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
But there's plenty saying that the fans are not.
I have issue with that.
I repeat, my deepest sympathies to those killed and their families and friends who are grieving. They are the innocents.
The ticketless fans and those who left to the last minute to enter the and continued to do so when something was obviously wrong should also be accountable.


Finally, this is an Internet forum and I suspect few of us know each other beyond what is posted on here so we really aren't in any position to throw around the accusations of bias or bigotry that are appearing here.
Don't judge people you barely know on their opinions on a very emotive subject.

Good post.

 

[Libero]

Can't speak for anyone else but my low opinion of scousers comes largely from their reaction to Hillsborough, not the other way around.

In their shoes I'd be grieving quietly, not forcing every poor fudgeer who opens a newspaper or turns on a TV to hear about it. I'd manage that without creating a victim culture and would avoid being vindictive towards people who were just trying to do their jobs.


Ever fudgeed up at work before? I have. Almost everyone I know has. I'll bet you have too.

Prison would be ridiculously over the top and only goes to show what a ridiculous circus whinging scousers have turned this whole debate into.


That's precisely what a lot of scousers have been intimating and I've certainly heard the word "murder" quite often in this debate.


When you fudgeed up at work (and I know you have, we all have) did you try and cover your arse? Do anything to make sure the brick didn't land in your lap?

Again, everyone has.


The culture is massively important because it forms the basis upon which those in charge made their decisions that day.

Hillsborough wouldn't happen at the opera. It wouldn't happen in Waitrose. Football fans were often violent, disorderly and dangerous and had to be treated as such. When viewed through that lens, many of the decisions made make plenty of sense.

Scara, I have a lot of respect for you being the person who deals with the maintenance of this forum and such like but on this I have to say I am finding myself feeling as though your persona of being a little controversial at times has gone a bit too far and perhaps permeated into your everyday thinking.

You cannot possibly say how you would react but I am sure if you lost a loved one in those circumstances then you would want to be sure it wasn't because of terrible decisions and blatant negligence that was then covered up in many aspects.

I have roostered up at work but no I don't try and cover it up because I work in a safety critical environment and that would end up being counter productive to me in the long run. Honesty in my job is always the best policy as any covering up found after the event would normally lead to one thing - Gross misconduct.

I fully agree it is not and can never be murder but I believe a case can be made for manslaughter in certain aspects.

I just think we massively disagree here but have no idea whether you feel any action should be taken at all which is sad tbh. It would be interesting to see if you feel as an example that Police have nothing to answer for in relation to how the Stephen Lawrence case was handled or the ongoing cases regarding double lives of serving Police officers to infiltrate peoples lives. The relation I make to these cases and Hillsborough is the misconduct in public offices aspects and definitely being a bit too cute at covering ones arse. Surely you must take issue with those aspects in all of the cases as a flagrant abuse of power ad office?

I'm one of the Met Police's biggest fans, I almost joined the Police when I was younger and they do a pretty good job on balance in a very tough environment much as forces will have done 25-30 years ago but when something is wrong or out of order then that is what it is and you have to take your medicine. I completely take the point regarding ticketless fans and their potential and the fact it isn't discussed and I agree to an extent but that is one aspect out of perhaps 14-15 other issues with police accountability being an issue for most of the others.

 

[StephenH]

We all have a different way of dealing with these type of tragic events in our lives.
Their way may not be your way, but that does not make it wrong.
We should all respect that.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Can't speak for anyone else but my low opinion of scousers comes largely from their reaction to Hillsborough, not the other way around.

In their shoes I'd be grieving quietly, not forcing every poor fudgeer who opens a newspaper or turns on a TV to hear about it. I'd manage that without creating a victim culture and would avoid being vindictive towards people who were just trying to do their jobs.


Ever fudgeed up at work before? I have. Almost everyone I know has. I'll bet you have too.

Prison would be ridiculously over the top and only goes to show what perfection whinging scousers have turned this whole debate into.


That's precisely what a lot of scousers have been intimating and I've certainly heard the word "murder" quite often in this debate.


When you fudgeed up at work (and I know you have, we all have) did you try and cover your arse? Do anything to make sure the brick didn't land in your lap?

Again, everyone has.


The culture is massively important because it forms the basis upon which those in charge made their decisions that day.

Hillsborough wouldn't happen at the opera. It wouldn't happen in Waitrose. Football fans were often violent, disorderly and dangerous and had to be treated as such. When viewed through that lens, many of the decisions made make plenty of sense.

It's one thing to cover up a mistake, but they actually blamed Liverpool fans rather than fronting up and admitting they made mistakes. The police are notorious for covering things up, but it's sinking to a new low by shunting the blame to football fans and accusing them of causing the disaster, it's shameful behaviour.

Like I said previously, I really don't envy the job that policemen have to do, but I really hate the attidtide towards football fans that still exists today. Obviously there are times where you have to stop being nice and don't take any brick if the situation calls for it, but I honestly believe that you will get a more positive reaction out of people by trying to engage with them rather than being rude/aggressive/insert adjective here. Just lumping all football fans into the same hooligan category and treating them with contempt only serves to exacerbate the atmosphere and tension in and around football grounds.

Sorry but "just doing their jobs" doesn't extend to sweeping things under the carpet, shirking responsibility and unfairly blaming others. To use your work analogy, if someone fecked up at work, but rather than confessing, shifted the blame to me, I would think that person was a grade A clam.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I am not sure if it's appropriate to bring up and some will say not relevant but it would be interesting to know how the Heysel disaster is portrayed on Merseyside.

Just a point, wasn't this just as tragic, but rarely do you ever hear about this anymore.

I'm sure most of them believe they didn't do much wrong. At the very least, they are partly responsible for what happened in Heysel, but I'm sure our fans would do the same if it was us, Liverpool fans perhaps take it to another level but ALL football fans defend the indefensible when it comes to their club, players and fans at times.

Not really sure how this relates to Hillsborough though. Liverpool were clearly wronged, regardless of what happened at Heysel. I've heard some disgraceful chanting by Spurs fans at WHL towards certain clubs and individuals, that doesn't mean it's not out of order when West Ham or Chelsea for example sing anti Semitic songs towards us.

 

[Libero]

I am not sure if it's appropriate to bring up and some will say not relevant but it would be interesting to know how the Heysel disaster is portrayed on Merseyside.

Just a point, wasn't this just as tragic, but rarely do you ever hear about this anymore.

Heysel is a slightly different scenario but certainly from what I have read, watched and heard then Liverpool certainly bear much blame for what happened there. That is not to say that Juventus fans are blameless but certainly Liverpool fans would be more at fault based on what I know. Having said all of that, Uefa should also bear responsibility because they picked a totally unsuitable venue that allowed for a neutral section in an era when as has been pointed out, fans were likely to kick off if left to their own devices and a venue that was totally falling apart and that is something that was admitted by Belgian authorities surprised that Heysel was chosen to host such an important game given its state.

Two different events with quite different narratives but the same end result whereby people went to a game and never came home. Incidentally though, Some Liverpool fans were prosecuted and served sentences as a result of their part in the disaster. The same cannot yet be said for the Hillsborough disaster.

 

[Jordinho]

I haven't seen anyone on here say that the police were faultless or shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.
But there's plenty saying that the fans are not.
I have issue with that.
I repeat, my deepest sympathies to those killed and their families and friends who are grieving. They are the innocents.
The ticketless fans and those who left to the last minute to enter the and continued to do so when something was obviously wrong should also be accountable.


Finally, this is an Internet forum and I suspect few of us know each other beyond what is posted on here so we really aren't in any position to throw around the accusations of bias or bigotry that are appearing here.
Don't judge people you barely know on their opinions on a very emotive subject.

The inquest stated that the fans didn't do anything unlawful. Ignoring the ticketless, that is true, but it's not the same as being blameless, no matter how it's portrayed in the media. Now they're trying to pin everything on a few police men.

 

[scaramanga]

Scara, I have a lot of respect for you being the person who deals with the maintenance of this forum and such like but on this I have to say I am finding myself feeling as though your persona of being a little controversial at times has gone a bit too far and perhaps permeated into your everyday thinking.

You cannot possibly say how you would react but I am sure if you lost a loved one in those circumstances then you would want to be sure it wasn't because of terrible decisions and blatant negligence that was then covered up in many aspects.

I can say with plenty of certainty that my grief wouldn't be public - there's no good reason for that. I find that kind of thing quite repugnant.

Losing one's decorum only worsens a tragedy.

I have roostered up at work but no I don't try and cover it up because I work in a safety critical environment and that would end up being counter productive to me in the long run. Honesty in my job is always the best policy as any covering up found after the event would normally lead to one thing - Gross misconduct.

Then you're probably cleaner than most in that regard. It's perfectly normal for people to avoid blame if they think they can and whilst the majority probably wouldn't, I'm sure a fairly significant proportion would.

Gross misconduct is right and anyone doing so should be sacked. Talk of prison sentences is just silly though.

I fully agree it is not and can never be murder but I believe a case can be made for manslaughter in certain aspects.

I've dealt with a fair few ambulance chasers and my understanding is that someone has to be knowingly negligent (even without malice) before anyone considers a manslaughter charge. I've seen no evidence that this was the case here.

I just think we massively disagree here but have no idea whether you feel any action should be taken at all which is sad tbh. It would be interesting to see if you feel as an example that Police have nothing to answer for in relation to how the Stephen Lawrence case was handled or the ongoing cases regarding double lives of serving Police officers to infiltrate peoples lives. The relation I make to these cases and Hillsborough is the misconduct in public offices aspects and definitely being a bit too cute at covering ones arse. Surely you must take issue with those aspects in all of the cases as a flagrant abuse of power ad office?

The police were totally wrong in the case of Stephen Lawrence.

Not sure what you mean by the double lives - do you mean infiltration of dangerous organisations by assimilation? If so, my preference is for police to be like an army - always recognisable as such and not being able to hide behind civilians. That said, I think that it can be appropriate and required in some cases - such as the infiltration of dangerous groups.

The flip side of that is unmarked traffic cars - in that case, the incredibly small danger of motoring offences doesn't justify such means.

I'm one of the Met Police's biggest fans, I almost joined the Police when I was younger and they do a pretty good job on balance in a very tough environment much as forces will have done 25-30 years ago but when something is wrong or out of order then that is what it is and you have to take your medicine. I completely take the point regarding ticketless fans and their potential and the fact it isn't discussed and I agree to an extent but that is one aspect out of perhaps 14-15 other issues with police accountability being an issue for most of the others.

It is an overriding one though. Not being firm enough with large groups of fans in those days would also often have caused injury and possibly death. The police had to react the way they did because fans didn't allow them to take chances.

 

[scaramanga]

It's one thing to cover up a mistake, but they actually blamed Liverpool fans rather than fronting up and admitting they made mistakes. The police are notorious for covering things up, but it's sinking to a new low by shunting the blame to football fans and accusing them of causing the disaster, it's shameful behaviour.

Like I said previously, I really don't envy the job that policemen have to do, but I really hate the attidtide towards football fans that still exists today. Obviously there are times where you have to stop being nice and don't take any brick if the situation calls for it, but I honestly believe that you will get a more positive reaction out of people by trying to engage with them rather than being rude/aggressive/insert adjective here. Just lumping all football fans into the same hooligan category and treating them with contempt only serves to exacerbate the atmosphere and tension in and around football grounds.

Sorry but "just doing their jobs" doesn't extend to sweeping things under the carpet, shirking responsibility and unfairly blaming others. To use your work analogy, if someone fecked up at work, but rather than confessing, shifted the blame to me, I would think that person was a grade A clam.

You're right. They're clams, they deserve to be sacked in some cases and heavily reprimanded in others. They don't deserve prison though, nor do they deserve having to hear 30 years of yapping, chippy scousers - nobody deserves that.

As for lumping all fans in together, how do you find out which ones are violent until they're violent? The target number for injured fans, police and bystanders has to be zero. The number of innocent fans treated like hooligans has to be as low as possible, but it's of secondary concern.

 

[Bullet]

One shouldn't generalise too much about large groups of people.
Some of the fans were innocent, well behaved etcetera. Some were utter drunken tw@ts on the rampage. Most were between these two extremes.
Some of the police were trying their hardest, treating people well etcetera. Some were negligent and enjoyed shoving people around. Most were between these two extremes.

It's a shame that the far extreme of BOTH groups contributed to this disaster; you can't blame just the fans nor just the police.