Ex-managers: I'm pining for the past and cannot move on

[the dza]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Not all systems have clear paths of progression. Fewer still progress in anything like a straight line.

There's a very good chance that irregular progression would look like no progression at all to the unknowing or unwilling.

What if, for example, a manager looked at Spurs and (quite rightly) decided that we were defensively disorganised and mentally weak late in games. What if that manager then fixed those problems but hadn't yet fixed (either by coaching or replacement of players) the issue with individual errors. That team would look to many as if it were going nowhere (or even backwards) despite having two of the club's most persistent problems fixed.

Look at Mercedes GP - their car needed a complete overhaul and their team went backwards massively to get there. It was worth the pain though, they're currently the best in the world.

Yes! And, and...what if a team, was reliant on the brilliance of a genuine world-class player to win a lot of points and score crucial goals....and then they sold that player and bought in a load of sh1t...and then the team didn't do so well and looked quite average....and then they looked a little better under a different manager....and then he got binned and then we get to now.

Veil. Lifted.

 

[DHSF]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

How long should you give something before deciding no progress is being made?

Does no progress after 11 games mean we can't expect to see any after 15/20/25?

This is the brunt of the issue here. I dont think its just 11 games, its three years or just under. I did mention three years and not 11 games. I imagine that Levy when he got rid of Harry decided on this new 'route' and 'strategy' and that will have begun three years ago.

 

[NWND]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Yes! And, and...what if a team, was reliant on the brilliance of a genuine world-class player to win a lot of points and score crucial goals....and then they sold that player and bought in a load of sh1t...and then the team didn't do so well and looked quite average....and then they looked a little better under a different manager....and then he got binned and then we get to now.

Veil. Lifted.

This is the thing though isn't it? We looked better under Sherwood and certainly had consistently good results against anyone not in the top 4.

We didn't need yo go backwards to go forwards from where we were. We had a lot of talented young players we needed to build on what Sherwood left, sign some PL experienced players with good mentality and jobs a goodun

 

[scaramanga]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Yes! And, and...what if a team, was reliant on the brilliance of a genuine world-class player to win a lot of points and score crucial goals....and then they sold that player and bought in a load of sh1t...and then the team didn't do so well and looked quite average....and then they looked a little better under a different manager....and then he got binned and then we get to now.

Veil. Lifted.

This is the thing though isn't it? We looked better under Sherwood and certainly had consistently good results against anyone not in the top 4.

We didn't need yo go backwards to go forwards from where we were. We had a lot of talented young players we needed to build on what Sherwood left, sign some PL experienced players with good mentality and jobs a goodun

As with his mentor (both in being a cvnt and a manager) short-termism will always look better over the short term (hence the name).

It also pleases the short attention span, beer and a fight on a Friday night, don't like to think because my makes my head all hurty masses. Doesn't do the club any good in the long term though.

 

[billyiddo]

So, the big elephant in the room...

This is the brunt of the issue here. I dont think its just 11 games, its three years or just under. I did mention three years and not 11 games. I imagine that Levy when he got rid of Harry decided on this new 'route' and 'strategy' and that will have begun three years ago.

Well you need to get over Harry then and realize each manager is a new beginning. AVB replaced Redknapp - it didn't work out. Now Pochettino has replaced AVB (after a breif caretaker in place for half a season) so now we give him a fair crack.

 

[DHSF]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Not all systems have clear paths of progression. Fewer still progress in anything like a straight line.

There's a very good chance that irregular progression would look like no progression at all to the unknowing or unwilling.

What if, for example, a manager looked at Spurs and (quite rightly) decided that we were defensively disorganised and mentally weak late in games. What if that manager then fixed those problems but hadn't yet fixed (either by coaching or replacement of players) the issue with individual errors. That team would look to many as if it were going nowhere (or even backwards) despite having two of the club's most persistent problems fixed.

Look at Mercedes GP - their car needed a complete overhaul and their team went backwards massively to get there. It was worth the pain though, they're currently the best in the world.

It depends whether success is measured relatively to other clubs or as a standalone indicator i.e. us as a club or finishing top four (but if all other clus strengthen then we can still improve without finishing top four). Right now I do not think anything has improved over the course of the last two and a half years.

When I suggested progression I meant the club as a whole disregarding on the pitch. Is our infrastructure being built, is it progressing to where we want it to be? ..Basically I was bringing up the question of what the DoF does as there has been no evidence of progression since bringing this joker in. He has spunked 100m (being prudent) up against the wall, scouting network? if all they can conjure up is a Chriches then clearly it isnt working. This impacts on our squad and right now it is in my view the worst its been taking into account the money we invested.

What and how does this impact on the pitch? I dont think I or anyone expects overnight success but there is no continuity at all in our journey over the last two and a half years which is saddening and it seems that we do need to start again similiarly to your merc example. However the question is why do we need to start again? why is the DoF bringing in players not suited ot the league? why isnt his scouting working? or why is it poor?

You mention Merc GP but whilst they overhauled it they still showed progression during those phases. I think the squad will have to be overhauled again next summer with a vast majority of players being sold for less than what we paid for... that means Poch wont have as much money which will mean the squad will take significantly longer to build.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

As with his mentor (both in being a cvnt and a manager) short-termism will always look better over the short term (hence the name).

It also pleases the short attention span, beer and a fight on a Friday night, don't like to think because my makes my head all hurty masses. Doesn't do the club any good in the long term though.

I can imagine still having this debate in 15 years time when we're in league one and you and GB saying it's OK lads, be patient. I admire yours and GB's unwavering support of this system though, there seems to be nothing that can change your mind.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

It depends whether success is measured relatively to other clubs or as a standalone indicator i.e. us as a club or finishing top four (but if all other clus strengthen then we can still improve without finishing top four). Right now I do not think anything has improved over the course of the last two and a half years.

When I suggested progression I meant the club as a whole disregarding on the pitch. Is our infrastructure being built, is it progressing to where we want it to be? ..Basically I was bringing up the question of what the DoF does as there has been no evidence of progression since bringing this joker in. He has spunked 100m (being prudent) up against the wall, scouting network? if all they can conjure up is a Chriches then clearly it isnt working. This impacts on our squad and right now it is in my view the worst its been taking into account the money we invested.

What and how does this impact on the pitch? I dont think I or anyone expects overnight success but there is no continuity at all in our journey over the last two and a half years which is saddening and it seems that we do need to start again similiarly to your merc example. However the question is why do we need to start again? why is the DoF bringing in players not suited ot the league? why isnt his scouting working? or why is it poor?

You mention Merc GP but whilst they overhauled it they still showed progression during those phases. I think the squad will have to be overhauled again next summer with a vast majority of players being sold for less than what we paid for... that means Poch wont have as much money which will mean the squad will take significantly longer to build.

Added to the fact that we don't have any world class players, except Lloris who we can flog for big money. How much would we even get for him? £25M? That's less than what we paid for Lamela and Soldado.

 

[DHSF]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Well you need to get over Harry then and realize each manager is a new beginning. AVB replaced Redknapp - it didn't work out. Now Pochettino has replaced AVB (after a breif caretaker in place for half a season) so now we give him a fair crack.

Who mentioned Harry in my post? I certainly didnt (and yep it is a Harry thread - this isnt lost on me).

By the way I dont think anyone is really criticising Poch with the exception of his poor team choices which they are poor... I think there is a fundamental issue from within and think people are questioning this which is not unreasonable.

My main gripe is to do with infrastructure and make up of the club. Swansea is a perfect model to follow and whilst it took them some time, they showed progression continuously right to this day. We are two and a half years down the line and worse than when we started.

 

[billyiddo]

So, the big elephant in the room...

Who mentioned Harry in my post? I certainly didnt (and yep it is a Harry thread - this isnt lost on me).

By the way I dont think anyone is really criticising Poch with the exception of his poor team choices which they are poor... I think there is a fundamental issue from within and think people are questioning this which is not unreasonable.

My main gripe is to do with infrastructure and make up of the club. Swansea is a perfect model to follow and whilst it took them some time, they showed progression continuously right to this day. We are two and a half years down the line and worse than when we started.

The 3 years bit is in reference to when Redknapp left and how you have seen everything that has come since as the same thing, isn't it?

If we're talking infastructure the DoF has only been in place just over a year - not two and a half seasons...

 

[NWND]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

As with his mentor (both in being a cvnt and a manager) short-termism will always look better over the short term (hence the name).

It also pleases the short attention span, beer and a fight on a Friday night, don't like to think because my makes my head all hurty masses. Doesn't do the club any good in the long term though.

But ultimately football by its very nature is short term. A club can have a great run, a great season then be crap the next. A striker could bang in 15 goals in 10 games then rupture his Achilles. A team can be 1-0 up and cruising and concede two goals in the last 10 mins.

To an extent you need to sort the short term and make it viable in order to buy time for the longer term vision.

For example, its easier and better integrating new foreign signings or academy graduates into a winning team.

Ripping up and starting from scratch is both unnecessary and counter productive. Plus supposedly we were looking for a manager to get the most out of our £100m reinvestment of the Bale money. This by its very nature requires short term gain to boost value and reputation. In this respect Sherwood appeared more successful than Poch- at least Eriksen seemed like he coukd be classed as a success story. Chadli showed signs of life and at least Paulinho was making it onto a football pitch and playing in a team with a reasonable win rate.

Its a short term game unfortunately the BPL and it's 24 hr coverage on Sky and BT is a' what happened today's environment where every club is 3 defeats away from a crisis.

In this context a failure to stabilise the short-term results and performances and build a platform for growth with a bit of grace and good will from fans, players and press is a fatal mistake in most cases.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Poch just needs a couple of wins and all will be rosy again (relatively).

If he tightens us up at the back as he did vs Arsenal then I think the solidity behind the attackers will start flowing into goals. Win te next game then he'll have the same record as AVB did in his first dozen games...

Some worries, but we're not in Ramos/Santini situation yet

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Poch will turn it around. He has his qualities. But he must not let fans and the media choose his team. He has to stick to his clear vision. Problem is that has been diluted by two teams, too many players and the circus of opinions that come with a big club. Redknapp was experienced enough to cut through that. He took the pressure off players and got them to do the simple things well and for them to express themselves. Now wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air now?

Its my opinion that we have a stockpile of talented footballers. But no foundation in the club. No stable players, no consistency, nothing much to build around. Someone like HR could galvanise and add confidence in a short space of time and then make zhit low confidence players shine. I am amazed that a majority thought it was right to sack HR. No one can argue we have been as good to watch since.

Poch the motivator? Pochettinho taking the pressure off and getting players to play a simple effective game? This is what we need. I think he can do it. I just hope he can stick to his guns and not try and please everyone. It was HR's success and ultimate failure.

 

[NWND]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Poch just needs a couple of wins and all will be rosy again (relatively).

If he tightens us up at the back as he did vs Arsenal then I think the solidity behind the attackers will start flowing into goals. Win te next game then he'll have the same record as AVB did in his first dozen games...

Some worries, but we're not in Ramos/Santini situation yet

Not being funny, but AVB's record was:

Saudi Sportswashing Machine away L 1-2
WBA home D 1-1
Norwich home D 1-1
Reading away W 3-1
QPR home W 2-1
Man Utd away W 3-2
A Villa home W 2-0
Chelsea home L 2-4
Southampton away W 2-1
Wigan home L 0-1
Emirates Marketing Project away L 1-2
Arsenal away L 2-5

So not the poor start really other than Wigan H there are no unexpected results really.

Defeats away to Arsenal with 10 men, narrow defeat to Emirates Marketing Project away, narrow defeat to Chelsea at home (we were in that match until Walkers brain fart). Plus in between we had a brilliant result at Man U who were stilk under Fergie.

In fact following a rough start in the first 3 fixtures 4 wins on the bounce and that Man U result bought the grace to accept the run of defeats knowing there was something about the side.

Our start under Poch has seen a slide away in performances and frankly atrocious performances and results at home to very average or poor teams- that's the worry!

We've lost at home to WBA, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Stoke.

Stoke outclassed us it was men against boys.

Let that sink in!

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Not being funny, but AVB's record was:

Not being funny, but AVB's record was:

Saudi Sportswashing Machine away L 1-2
WBA home D 1-1
Norwich home D 1-1
Reading away W 3-1
QPR home W 2-1
Man Utd away W 3-2
A Villa home W 2-0
Chelsea home L 2-4
Southampton away W 2-1
Wigan home L 0-1
Emirates Marketing Project away L 1-2
Arsenal away L 2-5

So not the poor start really other than Wigan H there are no unexpected results really.

Defeats away to Arsenal with 10 men, narrow defeat to Emirates Marketing Project away, narrow defeat to Chelsea at home (we were in that match until Walkers brain fart). Plus in between we had a brilliant result at Man U who were stilk under Fergie.

In fact following a rough start in the first 3 fixtures 4 wins on the bounce and that Man U result bought the grace to accept the run of defeats knowing there was something about the side.

Our start under Poch has seen a slide away in performances and frankly atrocious performances and results at home to very average or poor teams- that's the worry!

We've lost at home to WBA, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Stoke.

Stoke outclassed us it was men against boys.

Let that sink in!

Stoke beat City at the Etihad, so our defeat was not good but not something to "have to let sink in"
We had ten men in the end in our defeat vs City.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine have gone on a four game winning run, including beating City and Liverpool, so that home defeat might not be as disgraceful as it seems.

We had a big loss vs Liverpool granted, but you yourself were eventually bored and frustrated by AVB...did AVB ever blow away a 'fodder' team like QPR 4-0 in the league in the first part of his time with us? He certainly was better vs the big teams, but you didn't seem to appreciate that and you said you wanted Poch "because you wanted to see more attacking football" etc.

My point is that surely our 4-0 win vs QPR should at least for you give you a glimpse of what is possible from Poch. I thought you'd be ok with being less competitive in the 'big'games if you felt we would be more entertaining in the games vs fodder? I'm just saying that the 4-0 I would have thought would give you something to feel could happen again if given time and the right conditions.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Ironically, I think HR suited the DOF/ Levy setup in the club. The club would bring in raw talent and largely veto Redknapp's desire to splash the cash on washed up rubbish. Levy and HR complemented each other. HR able to bed in new players and improve them. Levy able to marshal HRs transfer excesses.

But we need to move on. The problem is we are not seeing Poch move on. If we'd lost to Stoke but played well it would have been different. However, it was a perfect storm of the pressing not working leaving the defence exposed. Poor defending in itself. Low confidence and a lack of a plan B. The next three games will be massive for Poch. I am sure we will see more galvanised performances. If we don't we know Levy doesn't mess around.

 

[Paul1eJ]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Christ you lot are a fickle bunch. I can recall when HR dragged us from 3rd from bottom and he was our saviour. Not surprising really when you consider the squad he took on. VdV. Bale. Modders. King. Hudd. An in form Lennon. Kranj. WOW. Now, Poch is suffering, everyone is clambering for his head. And he doesn't have even the same squad HR had. All the players are relatively knew. Some bright spark got rid of our best talent (apart from Hugo!) and we're thinking its all over. Where's the team spirit? Where's the backing? For gods sake its pathetic.

Please please - the best thing that can happen is Levy (if you're listening please act on this advise) is come out in the media and give your 110% backing to Poch because that will embattle the players to support Poch, who is clearly being questioned, it will galvanise the fans, who need to act like a 12th man, not the executioner and that in turn will give the players a much needed perk.

Forget HR. For get AVB. For Ramos. This is now and we've got to fight and improve and build a culture club from the bottom up. Poch is the man right now, and change after change has hindered us. His argentinian, which bodes well with history, so lets favour the brave.

Peace n goals.
PJ

 

[Mulletperm]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Christ you lot are a fickle bunch. I can recall when HR dragged us from 3rd from bottom and he was our saviour. Not surprising really when you consider the squad he took on. VdV. Bale. Modders. King. Hudd. An in form Lennon. Kranj. WOW. Now, Poch is suffering, everyone is clambering for his head. And he doesn't have even the same squad HR had. All the players are relatively knew. Some bright spark got rid of our best talent (apart from Hugo!) and we're thinking its all over. Where's the team spirit? Where's the backing? For gods sake its pathetic.

Please please - the best thing that can happen is Levy (if you're listening please act on this advise) is come out in the media and give your 110% backing to Poch because that will embattle the players to support Poch, who is clearly being questioned, it will galvanise the fans, who need to act like a 12th man, not the executioner and that in turn will give the players a much needed perk.

Forget HR. For get AVB. For Ramos. This is now and we've got to fight and improve and build a culture club from the bottom up. Poch is the man right now, and change after change has hindered us. His argentinian, which bodes well with history, so lets favour the brave.

Peace n goals.
PJ

Where is everybody 'clamouring for his head'??

 

[Baleforce]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I'm not sure they are, there is ranting going on in every direction but I think the poch out phalanx is still very very small, he seems to be be 4th in line of blame behind the ballers, baldini and the board.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Well you need to get over Harry then and realize each manager is a new beginning. AVB replaced Redknapp - it didn't work out. Now Pochettino has replaced AVB (after a breif caretaker in place for half a season) so now we give him a fair crack.

I should not really talk for others but I do not think Poch is getting much stick at the moment and rightly so. He is doing his best and as Klinsmann says if given time would probably turn out ok. The problem is not with Poch it is whether we have gone backwards.

Scara says that we have to go back to go forwards or be prepared for little progress, he gives the example of F1 I do not follow that sport. But similar happens in cycling where teams will have a 3 year plan to get a grand tour winner. I am not against it, but I thought the whole point of a director of football was that when you changed managers the did not have to be a big change in players because the new manager would fit the players the director of football brought.