Eric Dier

[parklane1]

Where do you stop count on a listing of "best players"?

Kane, Alli, Son, Vertonghen, Alderweireld all EASILY better this season, so that would rank him 6th, and thats before you might want to argue for Moura/Winks/Eriksen etc as to whether or not they have been better.

I dont think anyone hasnt recognised importance. With him our midfield is lacking, without him its non existent, of course he has been important.

Not a measure of quality or ability though, is it?

I suppose a lot of it depends on what side of the fence anyone put themselves on when Sissoko first came here.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I suppose a lot of it depends on what side of the fence anyone put themselves on when Sissoko first came here.

Absolutely not.

This season, have those players been better than him, or not? Thats the question.

Id list those 5 without hesitation. Then I think there could be a pretty lengthly debate as to whether or not others have played better also. Eriksen, for example, while under par by his own high standard is still a fundamentally better player.

If just one other snuck past Sissoko in a list of best players this season, that would put him 7th. In the bottom half of the first 11.

So yeah, sure, hes been "one of our best players this season" - but Im not sure thats saying much when you really think about it

If anything, it just reinforces the point Ive made before - he isnt up to the standard of the team around him.

 

[Robspur12]

Where do you stop count on a listing of "best players"?

Kane, Alli, Son, Vertonghen, Alderweireld all EASILY better this season, so that would rank him 6th, and thats before you might want to argue for Moura/Winks/Eriksen etc as to whether or not they have been better.

I dont think anyone hasnt recognised importance. With him our midfield is lacking, without him its non existent, of course he has been important.

Not a measure of quality or ability though, is it?

In some games Sissoko has been the man of the match. Can't be bothered to list the particular games. Conversely those players have had poor games this season. By that measure he has had games where he has been better than all of those players. Their ceiling is higher but there are games where Sissoko has definitely performed better than them.

Of course we should know better than than to engage you in a discussion about Sissoko especially in the Dier thread. He really is your bete noire. Shame really because you lost your impartiality towards him a long time ago.

 

[thfcsteff]

Skipps a child who isnt ready to play a full season of mens football.

Sissoko is the least worse option. That he plays doesnt suggest otherwise.

To play your own game, if Wanyama and Dembele were fit all season, would Sissoko have played anywhere near as much? You know the answer.

Dembele? Look, controversial as this might be, we are on course for our best ever Premier league season points-wise. I think taking into account the squad players who have regularly been involved is a worthy thing to do. Denying Sissoko his due is just silly. All this “he can’t play football” smacks as playing for an audience.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[thfcsteff]

I have to hold my hands up (again) and say he has improved this season beyond what I thought he was capable of.

The improvement in him is impressive.

Im unsure of how I feel about him as a squad player to be honest. I think in key areas he is fundamentally not at the right level, so whats the point? But I also think he seems willing to sit back and do his best when called upon which has its worth.

Practically speaking Id expect him to survive the summer but be effectively relegated down the order as you say. Probably to move on in time as other players establish themselves.

It looks like this summer is going to be turbulent squad wise, so unless we get a "to good to refuse" offer I figure he'll stick around.

Ultimately though "squad player" will be his future if he sticks around, and a run of games like he is currently enjoying will only happen if the midfield gets similarly gutted by injury etc.


Relativity seems to be the issue with how people judge him, IMO.

Relative to him last season and before, this seasons Sissoko is absolutely brilliant.

Relative to the level of quality we need, despite that improvement, he just isnt good enoguh IMO.

Good post to be fair, but must ask, who comes in right now?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

In some games Sissoko has been the man of the match. Can't be bothered to list the particular games. Conversely those players have had poor games this season. By that measure he has had games where he has been better than all of those players. Their ceiling is higher but there are games where Sissoko has definitely performed better than them.

Of course we should know better than than to engage you in a discussion about Sissoko especially in the Dier thread. He really is your bete noire. Shame really because you lost your impartiality towards him a long time ago.

I genuinely love posts like this, because it just goes to show people arent even playing the ball - just the man. And "the man" is actually a cartoon exaggeration in their mind, not actually me.

It doesnt matter how positively I speak about him - any even slight negative is pounced on, usually out of context, and then Im attacked. And Im attacked a lot more than my posts, which I also find telling.

The context of conversation was THIS SEASON, surely it has to be a perspective of performance to date on an over all basis, so why are you going on about individual games?

Am I being impartial in saying other players have out performed him?

Am I being impartial in suggesting he lacks the level of technique and general footballing ability?

Is it impatial to say that while he is probably the clubs best athlete, it isnt by such a margin as to be remarkable, and doesnt compensate enough for his deficiences?

The answer is yes, I am being completely impartial and just giving a view based upon the team as it stands.

 

[harr1984]

Starts?

Id have to check the stats etc, but I am pretty sure 90% of his appearances - starts at least - will have come because someone else was injured/unavailable/being nursed.

I cant think of many times he has started and Ive thought "Why is he starting and not Dembele?".

Id describe his time here are "utility" and not "first choice", and I think thats a fair reflection so far.

Fair enough mate, but I have to draw the line at the 'he's just an athlete' thing. Bolt is a better athlete than Sissoko and he couldnt make it in the Australian League.If he was just an athlete who could just run about a bit, he would get found out very quickly, and at a much lower level than a side competing at the top of the PL.

Personally would say he's been one of our most consistent performers (and not just by 'Sissoko standards'), and proved to be someone who can be relied upon to do his job as per what is required. He doesnt need to do anything flash or be amazing on the ball, but he has proven himself IMO. You dont agree, fair enough I agree with most subjects you post on so can't cry about not agreeing on the odd subject....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Dembele? Look, controversial as this might be, we are on course for our best ever Premier league season points-wise. I think taking into account the squad players who have regularly been involved is a worthy thing to do. Denying Sissoko his due is just silly. All this “he can’t play football” smacks as playing for an audience.

I like the quotes, that must mean you can point me to where Ive said “he can’t play football” - care to share?

I would argue I have given him his due, and no more. Id respectfully suggest many here are giving him much more than his due because they have become over excited with our performance in the table and the improvement from a very low base in the player.

Youll notice (if you were so inclined) I have barely posted on the matter in weeks and months, Ive let the conversation go on without me - but rest assured the second I do I get accused of agenda, lacking impartiality and playing to an audience...

Im not playing to any audience, its frankly tiresome. Im just standing my ground on what I think is a perfectly fair point of view.

I find the lengths of defence for him, against what is a pretty reasonable critique of the player, quite baffling to be honest. Its like he has become a saint, and not a bad word shall ever be tolerated.

Good post to be fair, but must ask, who comes in right now?

In the summer? Or into the team right now?

Right now if fit Id drop Sissoko for Dier in a hearbeat, no question. Otherwise he plays as the only other actual option.

I suggested a while back putting Alli and Eriksen a bit deeper instead of playing him as well, and Poch has toyed with it late in games, but of course injury doesnt permit that either...

In the summer? Honestly I dont watch enough football to REALLY judge potential targets.

The little Ive seen of both NDombele and Rabiot would represent a nice upgrade, IMO - but its hardly an over qualified opinion.

From within the EPL I dont see what all the fuss is about with Doucoure, plenty seem to like him but I dont see what he offers that would interest us.

I really like Loftus-Cheek, but of course thats a no go. He's raw but I just feel Poch would make him a machine.

Rice at West Ham is really growing this season, such a calm and composed player, well positioned etc - another I think would thrive with Poch.

Dendoncker at Wolves caught my eye the other day, very tidy, good movement, smart player. Havent seen enough to say he would be great for us but I liked what I saw so far.

I quite like Lemina at SCBC as well. We were linked before he went there, and while he hasnt set the world alight there is definite potential to him.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Fair enough mate, but I have to draw the line at the 'he's just an athlete' thing. Bolt is a better athlete than Sissoko and he couldnt make it in the Australian League.If he was just an athlete who could just run about a bit, he would get found out very quickly, and at a much lower level than a side competing at the top of the PL.

Personally would say he's been one of our most consistent performers (and not just by 'Sissoko standards'), and proved to be someone who can be relied upon to do his job as per what is required. He doesnt need to do anything flash or be amazing on the ball, but he has proven himself IMO. You dont agree, fair enough I agree with most subjects you post on so can't cry about not agreeing on the odd subject....

(Maybe no surprise but) Id disagree with you there. Bolt is faster in a straight line over a short distance, but Sissoko is the better athlete. Far more stamina, agility and strength. As well as having speed.

Of course he can play football. But on balance of his strengths, his athleticism outweighs his football ability considerably - and heres the key part - Ive been at lengths to stress AT OUR LEVEL.

As I said, were he at Brighton and I a fan I doubt Id have the same view. Id still think he was pretty limited, but he wouldnt stand out as lesser than the team, and Id love his heart and workrate (as I do now).

Hes been consistent. When you talk about being flash on the ball, I suspect this is where I get frustrated and others dont. Im not interested in flash, I just dont like how he stalls our play. With some more vision in his game, and a bit more ability to execute passes, Id be much happier with him.

Put it this way. We defend on our box, the ball breaks to Sissoko, he takes a few touches to control it, looks up, is getting closed down so lays it back to Alderweireld. He doesnt see the forward pass, relatively simple, that Eriksen is screaming for so we can attack while the other team are out of shape. Instead is goes back, plays in a triangle between he, Alderweireld and Trippier, before eventually going out to the LW at a point when the other team are well set.

Throughout the entire exchange his passes are accurate and getting where intended (5 yards, back and sideways) and he is moving around and being busy... And people seem satisfied. The whole time Im watching a potential break get lost because he didnt spot the forward ball (and Im not talking Pirlo passes here).

When Im talking about him not being that good a footballer, its this sort of thing. The combination of vision and technique and decision making to make the better move. That aside I do think his basic technique is lacking, he is quite a clumsy player, but it would be more forgivable if he made more positive contributions.

 

[scaramanga]

Dembele? Look, controversial as this might be, we are on course for our best ever Premier league season points-wise. I think taking into account the squad players who have regularly been involved is a worthy thing to do. Denying Sissoko his due is just silly. All this “he can’t play football” smacks as playing for an audience.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Liverpool might win the league. That doesn't make Milner a good footballer.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Sissoko is not good enough for where we aspire to be. Having said that, he has been different class this season. As a footballer he has his limitations but he is self aware enough to know this unlike Dier who thinks he’s a better footballer than he is. Dier is an excellent utility player but I don’t see why some need to build him to some Pirlo esque, all conquering, ball playing CM when in reality he’s a destroyer, similar ironically to Parker who Sissoko and Wanyama get compared to.

 

[Baleforce]

Is this still the Sissoko thread hijack?

Ok, my two pennies worth, our title tilt will come down to what we get from Liverpool and city, with every player fit and available, Poch will definitely be starting Sissoko in both of those.

 

[Rorschach]

Liverpool might win the league. That doesn't make Milner a good footballer.

He has skills to be fair. Invisibility, immunity to yellow cards, disruption, good at Minecraft.

Joking aside, Milner is an above average player who plays 6/10 in any position asked. He's annoying, but a perfect squad player really.

 

[Robspur12]

I genuinely love posts like this, because it just goes to show people arent even playing the ball - just the man. And "the man" is actually a cartoon exaggeration in their mind, not actually me.

It doesnt matter how positively I speak about him - any even slight negative is pounced on, usually out of context, and then Im attacked. And Im attacked a lot more than my posts, which I also find telling.

The context of conversation was THIS SEASON, surely it has to be a perspective of performance to date on an over all basis, so why are you going on about individual games?

Am I being impartial in saying other players have out performed him?

Am I being impartial in suggesting he lacks the level of technique and general footballing ability?

Is it impatial to say that while he is probably the clubs best athlete, it isnt by such a margin as to be remarkable, and doesnt compensate enough for his deficiences?

The answer is yes, I am being completely impartial and just giving a view based upon the team as it stands.

You like every post where anything remotely negative is said about Sissoko, which these days are generally only Scara’s. You bring up Sissoko every time you need a benchmark of brickness to compare other players to. Whenever anyone praises him you latch on to the post pointing out all his negatives. When posters counter, you claim, wrongly, that Sissoko is protected. You claim to know about Sissoko’s use to our squad, that is he is only playing by default, when the evidence from Poch, the manager of the team, is quite the opposite. You claim “he is not at our level.” I am curious to know if we are carrying a player who is not at our level, how come we are third in the league with our best points total ever at this stage of the Premier league season. Even anything positive you might have to say about him is couched in negativity.
No, you are right you are totally impartial when it comes to Sissoko. I am out of this discussion.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Liverpool might win the league. That doesn't make Milner a good footballer.

You’re right, that in itself doesn’t. Milner is a good footballer though.

 

[Hootnow]

Few things:

-Milner is a great footballer. And would be willing to bet he is a significantly more successful footballer than any one of us on here are at our jobs. By sheer statistics and putting aside the fact that everyone seems to love calling highly successful professionals brick, by sheer force of numbers, Milner is one of the best footballers in the world.

-This also applies to Sissoko.

-Sissoko HAS been one of our best players this season. Before this season, he was perhaps the first Spurs player I have actively disliked in a long long time. Not his fault necessarily, he didn't do anything disrespectful and he didn't choose to have 30 million spent on him. But I could not get over how brick he looked, how out of place he looked, how we spent 30 million on this pile of crap. However, this season he has turned it around. And initially this season, he may have turned it around in relation to how he looked before but now he does not look out of place with the rest of the team. Do I want him as the focal point of our team? No, in an ideal world, I'd want two new cms, with the two of them rotating with Winks and Dier/Sissoko making up the other options. Winks being better than him is arguable but Moura and Vertonghen? I don't think so.

-I like Dier but I find the way some people on here view him genuinely baffling. Scara especially seems to think he's some kind of exquisite passer, akin to Carrick or Pirlo. He's far closer to the 'cloggers' like Wanyama and Sissoko in terms of passing ability than he is to the likes of Pirlo or Carrick. He has his role in the squad, he can play a few positions to a good standard but some kind of expansive passer he is not.

 

[thfcsteff]

Where do you stop count on a listing of "best players"?

Kane, Alli, Son, Vertonghen, Alderweireld all EASILY better this season, so that would rank him 6th, and thats before you might want to argue for Moura/Winks/Eriksen etc as to whether or not they have been better.

I dont think anyone hasnt recognised importance. With him our midfield is lacking, without him its non existent, of course he has been important.

Not a measure of quality or ability though, is it?

Mate. That lacks context and detail. Taken as a stand-alone statement, it is simply not true. Lacking "what"?

 

[thfcsteff]

Alright, I'll bite...answers within the quotes and boldfaced.

I like the quotes, that must mean you can point me to where Ive said “he can’t play football” - care to share?

You are correct, no direct quotes (I should've used single-quotes, sadly a particular job I'm working on insists on a style guide where it's double-quotes or nowt, thus I was stuck in that lane), but the implication that you feel he is an inferior footballer/someone who can't play football are in 90% of your posts. In fact only when you don't want to be called out too much on it do you throw a semi-positive into the mix. Now, whether that is your intention I don't know, but it cannot be argued that there is a perception on this forum that you think he's crap, so you apparently leave enough in your posts most of the time to suggest as much.

I would argue I have given him his due, and no more. Id respectfully suggest many here are giving him much more than his due because they have become over excited with our performance in the table and the improvement from a very low base in the player.

You say this all the time. Nothing has changed. I disagree with you, you with me.


Youll notice (if you were so inclined) I have barely posted on the matter in weeks and months, Ive let the conversation go on without me - but rest assured the second I do I get accused of agenda, lacking impartiality and playing to an audience...

Mate. Come on. Put the victim bag down. It's a debate you keep engaging in. It isn't personal.

Im not playing to any audience, its frankly tiresome. Im just standing my ground on what I think is a perfectly fair point of view.

Great. I (and others) disagree. So why do you keep coming back? I respectfully consider your ground staked out and it's all good. Onwards if that's the case. I just think you're wrong, that's all.

I find the lengths of defence for him, against what is a pretty reasonable critique of the player, quite baffling to be honest. Its like he has become a saint, and not a bad word shall ever be tolerated.

No no no, see, you're mired in your old direction still. No-one's claiming he's Busquets in is prime, but you keep on telling everyone how he weakens us overall and we can do better without actually giving any substantial reasoning, evidence or examples. Right now, as it stands, he has improved tremendously in what he brings to the team and is a valuable member of our squad.
I repeat my question, who would you bring in to replace him? Until you can offer players who will improve us and are gettable, it is a point of opinion; one which I disagree with (until such evidence or example appears).


In the summer? Or into the team right now?

Right now if fit Id drop Sissoko for Dier in a hearbeat, no question. Otherwise he plays as the only other actual option.


I am a massive Eric Dier fan, and an in-form, fully fit Dier is in my side for his leadership alone. At the expense of Sissoko? Not so sure, I think they could live together myself, but then it means no Winks, and I think Winks has been largely excellent. Good problem to have.


I suggested a while back putting Alli and Eriksen a bit deeper instead of playing him as well, and Poch has toyed with it late in games, but of course injury doesnt permit that either...


Well, err, they do each play deeper sometimes. I would not play either of them next to Winks and sacrifice Sissoko right now, I'd play Winks/Sissoko - Son Eriksen Alli - Kane...opinions eh?!



In the summer? Honestly I dont watch enough football to REALLY judge potential targets.

The little Ive seen of both NDombele and Rabiot would represent a nice upgrade, IMO - but its hardly an over qualified opinion.


Rabiot? Overrated temperamental tart IMO. Until he grows a big enough pair of balls to take charge of his own career from his "advisors" and "family" I don't want toxic attitude like that anywhere close to N17. Not seen enough of NDombele personally, what I have seen is OK but I remain unconvinced he is better than what we have for our squad right now.



From within the EPL I dont see what all the fuss is about with Doucoure, plenty seem to like him but I dont see what he offers that would interest us.

I really like Loftus-Cheek, but of course thats a no go. He's raw but I just feel Poch would make him a machine.

Rice at West Ham is really growing this season, such a calm and composed player, well positioned etc - another I think would thrive with Poch.

Dendoncker at Wolves caught my eye the other day, very tidy, good movement, smart player. Havent seen enough to say he would be great for us but I liked what I saw so far.

I quite like Lemina at SCBC as well. We were linked before he went there, and while he hasnt set the world alight there is definite potential to him.

Doucoure I agree.
Loftus-Cheek, yup, said the same re: what Poch could do with a player like that, but again, agreed, no go.
Rice I agree, but not a chance. Spammers won't sell him to us.
I didn't think Dendoncker was much TBH.
Have to pay closer attention to Lemina.

I think the nutshell of our issue is that improving our squad is much much harder than it looks. I have always hoped that Poch would gamble and buy one experience late-20s winner. A Mueller or the like, but what a gamble it would be because he could be an almighty thunder clam, besides where would he fit in now? We are a very touch club to buy for.

As ever good discussion...

 

[scaramanga]

You’re right, that in itself doesn’t. Milner is a good footballer though.

Now I know you're taking the tinkle.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Few things:

-Milner is a great footballer. And would be willing to bet he is a significantly more successful footballer than any one of us on here are at our jobs. By sheer statistics and putting aside the fact that everyone seems to love calling highly successful professionals brick, by sheer force of numbers, Milner is one of the best footballers in the world.

-This also applies to Sissoko.

-Sissoko HAS been one of our best players this season. Before this season, he was perhaps the first Spurs player I have actively disliked in a long long time. Not his fault necessarily, he didn't do anything disrespectful and he didn't choose to have 30 million spent on him. But I could not get over how brick he looked, how out of place he looked, how we spent 30 million on this pile of crap. However, this season he has turned it around. And initially this season, he may have turned it around in relation to how he looked before but now he does not look out of place with the rest of the team. Do I want him as the focal point of our team? No, in an ideal world, I'd want two new cms, with the two of them rotating with Winks and Dier/Sissoko making up the other options. Winks being better than him is arguable but Moura and Vertonghen? I don't think so.

-I like Dier but I find the way some people on here view him genuinely baffling. Scara especially seems to think he's some kind of exquisite passer, akin to Carrick or Pirlo. He's far closer to the 'cloggers' like Wanyama and Sissoko in terms of passing ability than he is to the likes of Pirlo or Carrick. He has his role in the squad, he can play a few positions to a good standard but some kind of expansive passer he is not.

Have to agree completely on Dier. He does a job in midfield and now and again plays some decent passes but he’s limited offensively. Very limited.

To me, he’s still a centre back playing in midfield. And I think if he wants to fulfill his potential, it’ll be at centre back where he does it.

Scara thoroughly entertains me, especially his hatred of Liverpool but thinking Dier is a better ball player than Milner is wrong.

The only other thing I’ll say on Dier - I love his attitude. I think he’d run through a brick wall to win.