Eric Dier

[Raziel]

Debating Sissoko's strengths with Scara; what was I thinking?

Hahaha .. and you are dragging me into it ..

I disagree with @scaramanga that Sissoko reading of the game is terrible (it's better than Trippier's for what that is worth). I also disagree that we can't afford to drop a passer, Wanyama in form was never a passer, but what he brought compensated for it, and we have enough ability elsewhere. Think he also is discounting that a player with power and engine in Poch's midfield is part of our game

The issue for me with the team as it stands
- Dier/Sissoko/Winks/Skipp are leagues below the 4 in front of them Kane/Dele/Eriksen/Son
- The 2nd group walk in most sides, the first .. not so much (decent cover/rotation)

Surely the priority (if Eriksen stays) is to buy a top level deeper midfield player, and you can rotate others around that person. That and two FBs ..

 

[StephenH]

Our problem is we can't shift our deadwood and that list is getting longer.

Eriksen has looked well off being 'at it' recently and like that is neither use nor ornament to us.
He, Eriksen might well see a change being as good as a rest.

 

[harr1984]

His reading of the game and passing are fairly terrible. If all you want is that Scott Parker kind of midfielder where they run around all over the place and lay the ball off to passers 5 yards away then that's OK. I don't think a team with our ambitions can afford to lose a passer from the starting 11.

As for breaking the press, I see him burst into space quite often when it's already broken, he's often the player our opponents sit off of too as he's low risk for them. I very rarely see him pressed and when he is I don't see him do anything with it other than give it to our right back (usually under pressure themselves). He has the physical attributes to be a press breaking player, but I don't think he has the skill or the understanding of what's around him for that.

Run all over the place? He quite clearly consistently has specific defensive instructions, he consistently can be found on the right hand side for example covering the full back for their failings when venturing forward. No one in our system under our coach will get away with having more than a hanful of minutes if they are just 'running around all over the place' and he has a many minutes as anyone this season in a team that are apparently in the title race. So he has proved more than capable of belonging in 'a team with our ambitions'.....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He has played by default, not by any particular merit.

Aside from which there is a list as long as your arm of average to brick players with title medals, so it really isnt proof of anything is it?

 

[parklane1]

I think Sissoko breaks the press better than either of them. I also can't remember either Dier or Winks 'mopping up' as much as Sissoko - he's obviously good at reading danger. Sissoko's passing in the final third isn't too bad, obviously his shooting is poor.

Pretty good summing up.

 

[scaramanga]

Run all over the place? He quite clearly consistently has specific defensive instructions, he consistently can be found on the right hand side for example covering the full back for their failings when venturing forward. No one in our system under our coach will get away with having more than a hanful of minutes if they are just 'running around all over the place' and he has a many minutes as anyone this season in a team that are apparently in the title race. So he has proved more than capable of belonging in 'a team with our ambitions'.....

Maybe I should have been clearer. By "running all over the place" I mean trying to win the ball with physical attributes rather than mental ones. Chasing a player with the ball rather than closing off the best angles, etc.

 

[scaramanga]

Hahaha .. and you are dragging me into it ..

I disagree with @scaramanga that Sissoko reading of the game is terrible (it's better than Trippier's for what that is worth). I also disagree that we can't afford to drop a passer, Wanyama in form was never a passer, but what he bought compensated for it, and we have enough ability elsewhere. Think he also is discounting that a player with power and engine in Poch's midfield is part of our game

The issue for me with the team as it stands
- Dier/Sissoko/Winks/Skipp are leagues below the 4 in front of them Kane/Dele/Eriksen/Son
- The 2nd group walk in most sides, the first .. not so much (decent cover/rotation)

Surely the priority (if Eriksen stays) is to buy a top level deeper midfield player, and you can rotate others around that person. That and two FBs ..

Arsene Wenger sees what's going on in a match better than Trippier - I wouldn't call that a compliment.

Wanyama also didn't do anything for our progression as a passing side. Another Parker-like footballer (albeit at a much higher standard) who is great defensively but very limited (and limiting) when we have the ball.

Power and engine are just silly little Englishisms for people that miss football when it used to be brick. Modric was able to do everything Dembele and Sissoko do and he has none of the physical attributes. Sheringham could do what most centre forwards twice his size could and King was one of the best defenders in the league and only had one knee. Players who have the mental capability and understanding don't need the physical side of things.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Maybe I should have been clearer. By "running all over the place" I mean trying to win the ball with physical attributes rather than mental ones. Chasing a player with the ball rather than closing off the best angles, etc.

I may be imagining this, but I recall Sissoko adjusting the angle he attacks the ball, so that he's closing off the passing angle at the same time. Physical & mental.

 

[scaramanga]

I may be imagining this, but I recall Sissoko adjusting the angle he attacks the ball, so that he's closing off the passing angle at the same time. Physical & mental.

Yes, you are.

 

[Raziel]

Power and engine are just silly little Englishisms for people that miss football when it used to be brick. Modric was able to do everything Dembele and Sissoko do and he has none of the physical attributes. Sheringham could do what most centre forwards twice his size could and King was one of the best defenders in the league and only had one knee. Players who have the mental capability and understanding don't need the physical side of things.

No offense Scara, physicality has place in the game, especially in the PL (and for what it's worth, King was a unit). I'm sure you can recall a game or two where a side has been bullied around purely on a physical side.
- Poch prioritizes technical ability, most of our players are extremely good that way.

 

[scaramanga]

No offense Scara, physicality has place in the game, especially in the PL (and for what it's worth, King was a unit). I'm sure you can recall a game or two where a side has been bullied around purely on a physical side.

I absolutely can. Dropping a passer to put in a physical player will only increase our reliance on winning the physical battle - something we're unlikely to do against a team set up to do that.

A team of Modrics would beat a team of Sissokos by a cricket score. In fact, other than kick off, the team of Sissokos would probably not even get close to the ball.

- Poch prioritizes technical ability, most of our players are extremely good that way.

He does, which is why I would expect Sissoko and slightly less so, Wanyama to be bit part players once we have a full complement of fit midfielders.

 

[Aldo]

... I mean trying to win the ball with physical attributes rather than mental ones.

Although there is the “Jedi premium” to pay for players like that, and you’re only allowed 3 per squad now I think.

 

[Robspur12]

A team of Modrics would beat a team of Sissokos by a cricket score. In fact, other than kick off, the team of Sissokos would probably not even get close to the ball.

And yet the old Arsenal teams with silk and no steel never won anything and used to fold against physical teans. The best teams are generally made up of both Silk and steel, for every Hoddle you had a Roberts, every Pires you had a Viera, for every Beckham you had a Keane.

 

[Baleforce]

And yet the old Arsenal teams with silk and no steel never won anything and used to fold against physical teans. The best teams are generally made up of both Silk and steel, for every Hoddle you had a Roberts, every Pires you had a Viera, for every Beckham you had a Keane.

Beckham never shied out of a tackle tbf, not sure anyone in those United teams did.

 

[the dza]

And yet the old Arsenal teams with silk and no steel never won anything and used to fold against physical teans. The best teams are generally made up of both Silk and steel, for every Hoddle you had a Roberts, every Pires you had a Viera, for every Beckham you had a Keane.

Exactly. Even Emirates Marketing Project have Fernandinho, Laporte, Walker, Sterling, Sane -- pace and power matters because football is an athletic game. Brains and brawn. A team of David Silva's wouldn't win the Premier League, that's why even a coach who is as big of a purist as Guardiola recognises the need for different types of players.

A team mixed between Sissoko's and Modric's beats a team made up entirely of one or the other.

 

[thfcsteff]

Arsene Wenger sees what's going on in a match better than Trippier - I wouldn't call that a compliment.

Wanyama also didn't do anything for our progression as a passing side. Another Parker-like footballer (albeit at a much higher standard) who is great defensively but very limited (and limiting) when we have the ball.

Power and engine are just silly little Englishisms for people that miss football when it used to be brick. Modric was able to do everything Dembele and Sissoko do and he has none of the physical attributes. Sheringham could do what most centre forwards twice his size could and King was one of the best defenders in the league and only had one knee. Players who have the mental capability and understanding don't need the physical side of things.

In agree with some of what you say, especially re: Parker and Wanyama. I think Sissoko is significantly more useful to us than either of those two TBH. I also think he has greatly increased his ability to have a positive effect on games with regards to assists and quickly progressing transitions. If only he could score a couple of goals then he'd be something else, but I believe he is currently a very very important member of the squad. I think if we can get any money for Wanyama he should be sold, and felt that in the summer TBH. Sheringham was brilliant; when Kane played a lateral switch fro deep left to the inside right channel during our friendly against Seattle four years ago, the light flipped on and I realized he had the Sheringham-level football intelligence...tangenting, but what a player Edward was. His equalizer against the dippers in the 95 QF remains one of my top 10 at-the-game goals. The move, and placement, was sensational.

 

[scaramanga]

Exactly. Even Emirates Marketing Project have Fernandinho, Laporte, Walker, Sterling, Sane -- pace and power matters because football is an athletic game. Brains and brawn. A team of David Silva's wouldn't win the Premier League, that's why even a coach who is as big of a purist as Guardiola recognises the need for different types of players.

A team mixed between Sissoko's and Modric's beats a team made up entirely of one or the other.

What all of those footballers you've listed have in common is that they contribute significantly more in terms of ball retention and attacking movement than Wanyama and Sissoko combined.

I'm not saying don't pick players with food physical attributes, I'm saying don't pick them at the expense of footballing ones. The teams at the level to which we aspire don't and neither should we.

 

[Rorschach]

Wanyama of a couple of seasons ago was way more than a destroyer. I think some are underselling his football ability. He was in the mix for player of the season.

 

[the dza]

What all of those footballers you've listed have in common is that they contribute significantly more in terms of ball retention and attacking movement than Wanyama and Sissoko combined.

I'm not saying don't pick players with food physical attributes, I'm saying don't pick them at the expense of footballing ones. The teams at the level to which we aspire don't and neither should we.

I think you are vastly under-rating Wanyama as a footballer. When he's fully fit and on form, he's probably the best defensive midfielder at the club, though who knows if we'll ever see that again. In terms of attacking movement, Wanyama gets into more goal-scoring positions than Dier, he can also beat a man with dribbling and fire in the odd shot (Liverpool away, wasn't bad technique was it?!).

Re. Sissoko, if Guardiola was in charge of these players, he'd still use Sissoko. When they are all fit, Sissoko would be a squad player, but Guardiola (football purist) still has a use for players like this, even when the very best technicians are available to him. An example would be how he always used Keita off the bench for peak-Barca, even though Iniesta and Xavi were infinitely better technical players. Sometimes, the situation just called for a bit of athleticism, go on the pitch and keep it simple. Even with, arguably, the best football team of all time.

I don't think anyone is calling for the team to be built around Sissoko, but you can still acknowledge that players of this type have a use in a top side. Sissoko of this season has been a very efficient and effective player who can play in a few different positions in the team. When he's been sh1t, I've said he's been sh1t. But he has been excellent this season. With our injuries, he's been vital to us churning out results.

Anyway, that Eric Dier...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute? Because he isnt that good at football, so its basically all he has.

Why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute over our other playes? A much more interesting question. He is clearly among the best specimines in the squad, I dont disagree. But is always framed as if he is the only one, which is patently incorrect. Every one of our players (bar maybe Eriksen!) puts in the physical work. In both the hard running as well as challenges. Lets assume Sissoko is the best at it (he's not) even then, its not by a particularly wide margin.

So why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute over our other playes? Because if it wasnt there really wouldnt be any basis for all the support he rallies on here, would there?

Wanyama of a couple of seasons ago was way more than a destroyer. I think some are underselling his football ability. He was in the mix for player of the season.

When we bought him I thought he was a pure destroyer, a bit of an agricultural unit, and wasnt sold on the idea at all.

He proved a much better player than I had anticipated.