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ENIC

Bishop said:
For those who criticise the protest, do you see how it's become a topic of Sky's coverage. That coverage than feeds back into ENIC and they know all is not well with the fan base.

I honestly don't see the negative unless you think ENIC can do no wrong and therefore public criticism is unwarranted.
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I'm cool with a well run protest when it's not overtaken by mindless anti semitic rhetoric.

Today's protest looked to have been the best of the lot and well organised, fair play to them, ways supported it if done well.

At least they got their balloons in this time
 

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DeanoAustin said:
No issue with the protest even if I don’t fully agree. Fair play to them for getting organised and turning out in numbers. In fairness, even if you are pro-ENIC, you have to admit the lack of trophies is a justifiable big stick to beat them with.
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Not really, statistically speaking, we are one trophy down on reasonable expectations based on club history before ENIC.

When you factor in the importance of CL qualification now, and the lack of relevance of the two domestic cups, its not even a twig, let alone a big stick.
 
Baleforce said:
Not really, statistically speaking, we are one trophy down on reasonable expectations based on club history before ENIC.

When you factor in the importance of CL qualification now, and the lack of relevance of the two domestic cups, its not even a twig, let alone a big stick.
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2 I think. The trophy return has been poor even allowing for City and Chelsea cheating.

It’s a fair enough viewpoint to hold IMO.
 
Baleforce said:
Not really, statistically speaking, we are one trophy down on reasonable expectations based on club history before ENIC.

When you factor in the importance of CL qualification now, and the lack of relevance of the two domestic cups, its not even a twig, let alone a big stick.
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I find the obsession about how long it's been weird, while I accept others can feel different, I really subscribe to the Ange comment about building a dynasty. If we had won the 2019 champions league, do you think we would have won more since? I know it's impossible to say, but my instinct is no. We peaked squad and talent wise and declined for 5 years after, and I suspect that winning the CL would not have changed the club's approach, especially as COVID came along.

It might be hard to watch right now but (and it's a big but to some, not me) if Ange continues to get a team of super talented youngsters, and we have 8 to 10 now in that bracket, to improve, with some clever additions in 12 to 18 months time we could have a settled side which has played together for half a decade and which is totally invested in the philosophy of the manager.

I really hope our troubled time with injuries gives us a fresh side come the sharp end of the Europa League, and that we climb comfortably into the top ten over the next few weeks. We need stability and investment to succeed, and the former won't benefit from a change of manager now.
 
Surfless said:
I find the obsession about how long it's been weird, while I accept others can feel different, I really subscribe to the Ange comment about building a dynasty. If we had won the 2019 champions league, do you think we would have won more since? I know it's impossible to say, but my instinct is no. We peaked squad and talent wise and declined for 5 years after, and I suspect that winning the CL would not have changed the club's approach, especially as COVID came along.

It might be hard to watch right now but (and it's a big but to some, not me) if Ange continues to get a team of super talented youngsters, and we have 8 to 10 now in that bracket, to improve, with some clever additions in 12 to 18 months time we could have a settled side which has played together for half a decade and which is totally invested in the philosophy of the manager.

I really hope our troubled time with injuries gives us a fresh side come the sharp end of the Europa League, and that we climb comfortably into the top ten over the next few weeks. We need stability and investment to succeed, and the former won't benefit from a change of manager now.
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I agree on back then, that game was the end of something, irrespective of the score. Had we won, things arguably could have gotten worse.

I think we absolutely should change manager now though.
 
Baleforce said:
Not really, statistically speaking, we are one trophy down on reasonable expectations based on club history before ENIC.

When you factor in the importance of CL qualification now, and the lack of relevance of the two domestic cups, its not even a twig, let alone a big stick.
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We’ve won at least one trophy every decade from the 1950s until the 2010s. First trophy less decade the 1940s. Why do the big 5 value winning trophies so much AND finishing in the top 4 but a club like us that has become so allergic to trophies under ENIC think the two other cups are beneath us?
 
Jurgen the German said:
We’ve won at least one trophy every decade from the 1950s until the 2010s. First trophy less decade the 1940s. Why do the big 5 value winning trophies so much AND finishing in the top 4 but a club like us that has become so allergic to trophies under ENIC think the two other cups are beneath us?
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what about the 70 years before that?

do they really, or do they have such an embarrassment of (stolen) riches that they can cruise into the latter rounds with their stiffs a lot of the time

the dippers (rightly) didn't seem to value the FA cup last week

you have to weight things, how many European Cup finals, the entire point of football, did we play in pre ENIC?
 
Baleforce said:
what about the 70 years before that?

do they really, or do they have such an embarrassment of (stolen) riches that they can cruise into the latter rounds with their stiffs a lot of the time

the dippers (rightly) didn't seem to value the FA cup last week

you have to weight things, how many European Cup finals, the entire point of football, did we play in pre ENIC?
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We weren't a top division football club for a decent chunk of that.
 
Baleforce said:
I agree on back then, that game was the end of something, irrespective of the score. Had we won, things arguably could have gotten worse.

I think we absolutely should change manager now though.
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I think if there were a ready made off the shelf manager who I thought would come in and set the world on fire right now, I would possibly be able to accept an argument for the change, but would not want it to happen. The reality though is that football seems to be entering a phase where the skill is as much keeping the squad fit as it is your system. Look how Chelsea are falling away, how Utd despite their shortcomings are still being undermined by injury, and most of all look at our situation.

And before someone says x or y manager from a smaller club, bear in mind we've had Mourinho and Conte in the last decade and neither has succeeded so we are most definitely a poison chalice for managers. It feels like the club might need to change, and that means someone has to be able to handle the bad times while we transition.
 
Surfless said:
I think if there were a ready made off the shelf manager who I thought would come in and set the world on fire right now, I would possibly be able to accept an argument for the change, but would not want it to happen. The reality though is that football seems to be entering a phase where the skill is as much keeping the squad fit as it is your system. Look how Chelsea are falling away, how Utd despite their shortcomings are still being undermined by injury, and most of all look at our situation.

And before someone says x or y manager from a smaller club, bear in mind we've had Mourinho and Conte in the last decade and neither has succeeded so we are most definitely a poison chalice for managers. It feels like the club might need to change, and that means someone has to be able to handle the bad times while we transition.
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I'd be happy with one who put the fire out for a bit.

Plenty of those around imo.
 
Baleforce said:
what about the 70 years before that?

do they really, or do they have such an embarrassment of (stolen) riches that they can cruise into the latter rounds with their stiffs a lot of the time

the dippers (rightly) didn't seem to value the FA cup last week

you have to weight things, how many European Cup finals, the entire point of football, did we play in pre ENIC?
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Why focus on the 70 years before? ENIC came in after a sustained period (50 years) where we won trophies on a fairly regular basis, maybe not as frequently as the top clubs, but a substantial amount of trophies, enough to put us in the top 6/7 of most successful clubs in terms of honours. Those other clubs have deeper resources but they also take the cups more seriously than we do. Liverpool had to choose between a league cup semi final and an Fa cup 4th round. A potential final trumps a 4th round tie. You can’t play your strongest team in every single match.

We got to the CL final in spite of not signing anyone for 18 months and because we had a brilliant manager (at the time). We were also very lucky.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Why focus on the 70 years before? ENIC came in after a sustained period (50 years) where we won trophies on a fairly regular basis, maybe not as frequently as the top clubs, but a substantial amount of trophies, enough to put us in the top 6/7 of most successful clubs in terms of honours. Those other clubs have deeper resources but they also take the cups more seriously than we do. Liverpool had to choose between a league cup semi final and an Fa cup 4th round. A potential final trumps a 4th round tie. You can’t play your strongest team in every single match.

We got to the CL final in spite of not signing anyone for 18 months and because we had a brilliant manager (at the time). We were also very lucky.
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we're still easily in the top 6/7 of UK clubs by modern standards
 
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