ENIC

[Gutter Boy]

Any protests today?

One guy really kicking off about getting a chilli in his kebab when he'd asked for all the salad except chillies. So about the same as the other week

 

[Lilbaz]

Nothing really new but a decent round up.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-takeover-levy-lewis-sale-latest-b1061600.html

 

[parklane1]

I don't think you can apply the same logic to football fans who are generally more emotional and have the prime opportunity to protest if they wish (Match days). If only 40 fans are protesting out of 60,000 when they are on the spot and able to voice their concerns you can bet your life that they don't agree because when football fans have a POV the one thing they are is vocal.

And then on the flip, there is as I said previously the clout chasers who are clinging on the Levyout scenario online, on twitter and Youtube who in the HUGE numbers claim to be Levyout but don't attend the protests? You have to wonder why that is? For me its a sense of belonging to a movement and having a pop, but none back up their points. Now I am not making a generalisation here but many of them are those that don't go, I am not for one minute saying they are not real fans but its easy to have the anger and cast these accusations at the board from a far (Like the leader of LevyOut who sits in Canada Brian Dagul and a few others) than it is to pay your money, make your choice and actually get behind the team you support. Its easy to sit afar, outside reality and claim the club should be signing Hakimi and then calling the board sh1thouses for not than it is going to games and ferociously getting behind the side, in my opinion.

If you take the time and follow on twitter the like of Savva, Dagul, BCoys, Billy Cairns etc who are instigators in this as I did for two years, its clear why people don't jump on their bandwagon. They are irrational, angry, lie, conflate and ultimately have made the movement about them, and twitters probably the biggest driver on the protests, its just so off putting.

People like me would have much more respect for it if people just said "I want the club to spend more money" and left it at that, its now the utter rubbish people pile in to make the point I don't respect, the lies about taking money out and the borderline anti semitic undertone with flags like "Parasite"....no sorry, its not for me

Great post and one that sums up the idiots who go about it.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Any facts to support that?

Sure - see here - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

Only takes about 3.5% of any given population protesting to force change.

I don't think you can apply the same logic to football fans who are generally more emotional and have the prime opportunity to protest if they wish (Match days). If only 40 fans are protesting out of 60,000 when they are on the spot and able to voice their concerns you can bet your life that they don't agree because when football fans have a POV the one thing they are is vocal.

And then on the flip, there is as I said previously the clout chasers who are clinging on the Levyout scenario online, on twitter and Youtube who in the HUGE numbers claim to be Levyout but don't attend the protests? You have to wonder why that is? For me its a sense of belonging to a movement and having a pop, but none back up their points. Now I am not making a generalisation here but many of them are those that don't go, I am not for one minute saying they are not real fans but its easy to have the anger and cast these accusations at the board from a far (Like the leader of LevyOut who sits in Canada Brian Dagul and a few others) than it is to pay your money, make your choice and actually get behind the team you support. Its easy to sit afar, outside reality and claim the club should be signing Hakimi and then calling the board sh1thouses for not than it is going to games and ferociously getting behind the side, in my opinion.

If you take the time and follow on twitter the like of Savva, Dagul, BCoys, Billy Cairns etc who are instigators in this as I did for two years, its clear why people don't jump on their bandwagon. They are irrational, angry, lie, conflate and ultimately have made the movement about them, and twitters probably the biggest driver on the protests, its just so off putting.

People like me would have much more respect for it if people just said "I want the club to spend more money" and left it at that, its now the utter rubbish people pile in to make the point I don't respect, the lies about taking money out and the borderline anti semitic undertone with flags like "Parasite"....no sorry, its not for me

Well, here's the thing - I don't use Twitter, nor Facebook, nor any social media, really. So most of the people you've mentioned, I have zero idea about - I remember this place having a bee in their bonnet about some bloke called Harry Hotspur once, but that's about it.

Any movement will have its share of self-aggrandizing weirdos - I'm sure there are Levy In cultists to match. I don't class all people who want ENIC to stay based on the subset of people who are pricks about it.

And, re: protests, the people who are most committed are, to my mind, the folks who travel to see us - home and away, but mainly away. I pay more attention to them than the general population of folks at games. So when our away end sings about Levy fudging off for game after game, loud enough for the cameras and mics to pick up, loud enough for the media to pick up (everyone from the Beeb to the Guardian), it's worth paying attention to. Arguably more than if you rustled up the same number of people to go protest in front of Hotspur Way.

I've seen and heard our growing discontent about Levy and Lewis emerge on the TV, in the news, in the commentators' box - for the first time in 25 years, I think we're being picked up, and that's a good thing. I think that alone will grow the sentiment more than all those Twitter folks you mention.

As for thr anti-semitic stuff, agreed - no place for that, and it's sad people throw it around. I have no issues admitting that my objection to Levy and Lewis is that they don't put enough money into the club to be decent owners, in an age where that is a bare minimum to let us compete.

 

[Grays_1890]

And, re: protests, the people who are most committed are, to my mind, the folks who travel to see us - home and away, but mainly away. I pay more attention to them than the general population of folks at games. So when our away end sings about Levy fudging off for game after game, loud enough for the cameras and mics to pick up, loud enough for the media to pick up (everyone from the Beeb to the Guardian), it's worth paying attention to. Arguably more than if you rustled up the same number of people to go protest in front of Hotspur Way.

I think there is a difference between singing at a game and protesting though, people will often sing things at games and band wagon jump when they would not back them up outside the game and thats the same with this. If people are singing stuff at games but don't have the belief of their convictions to stand on the highroad at a protest then how staunch are they Enicout? For me it just does not stack up, during lockdown there was 150 fans who turned up for a protest, since then the numbers have been 30-40 maximum on the highroad, once was even less, the day I was there and was about 12. If you are singing you want Daniel Levy out at away games but not protesting outside at home games, how much do you really believe what you are singing?

Im not arguing that people are not Enic Out but there is definitely a scale to it from those that stand on the highroad with flags, who lie and conflate information to aid their anger all the way to those that are happy to see them leave and have a fresh board, which also probably explains the chanting at games.

My overall point being that there is not the numbers in the extreme end of the scale, on a level with say the anti Sugar during the Venebles saga that make the movement anything to really worry about, IMHO.

Thats not to say I don't respect people for having a view and I love to discuss the ins and outs of the club and I respect you, for example for having the conviction to take the time to explain your views etc. I just don't buy the online social stuff which lies and bloats up the failures at every turn...the Tifo fury this week a case in example

 

[braineclipse]

Sure - see here - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world

Only takes about 3.5% of any given population protesting to force change.



Well, here's the thing - I don't use Twitter, nor Facebook, nor any social media, really. So most of the people you've mentioned, I have zero idea about - I remember this place having a bee in their bonnet about some bloke called Harry Hotspur once, but that's about it.

Any movement will have its share of self-aggrandizing weirdos - I'm sure there are Levy In cultists to match. I don't class all people who want ENIC to stay based on the subset of people who are pricks about it.

And, re: protests, the people who are most committed are, to my mind, the folks who travel to see us - home and away, but mainly away. I pay more attention to them than the general population of folks at games. So when our away end sings about Levy fudging off for game after game, loud enough for the cameras and mics to pick up, loud enough for the media to pick up (everyone from the Beeb to the Guardian), it's worth paying attention to. Arguably more than if you rustled up the same number of people to go protest in front of Hotspur Way.

I've seen and heard our growing discontent about Levy and Lewis emerge on the TV, in the news, in the commentators' box - for the first time in 25 years, I think we're being picked up, and that's a good thing. I think that alone will grow the sentiment more than all those Twitter folks you mention.

As for thr anti-semitic stuff, agreed - no place for that, and it's sad people throw it around. I have no issues admitting that my objection to Levy and Lewis is that they don't put enough money into the club to be decent owners, in an age where that is a bare minimum to let us compete.

Not sure the data from those protests generalise to football club ownership. Saudi Sportswashing Machine had big resistance to their owners over years. Got their new owners in the end, but I think that was more Ashley getting the money he wanted rather than the protests making a big difference.

We may see a move in the direction you suggest. My impression is that a lot of the Levy out stuff pops up when results are disappointing over a couple of months. Didn't hear much about it last season when we got top four. If results continue to disappoint (no trophies, no top four) for a couple of years no doubt the Levy out stuff will increase.

I have real doubts about that making much of a difference. Lewis will sell when he gets the money he thinks he can get.

I have to say I struggle to see who the "Levy in cultists" are. Are there any on this board that you think fall in that category?

I can definitely respect your views though we disagree. My impression is that very much of the criticism aimed at Levy boils down to your final sentence. "Put more money in to be a good owner". That's ultimately the one area where I think a new owner could realistically improve us.

 

[Raziel]

I have to say I struggle to see who the "Levy in cultists" are. Are there any on this board that you think fall in that category?

I can definitely respect your views though we disagree. My impression is that very much of the criticism aimed at Levy boils down to your final sentence. "Put more money in to be a good owner". That's ultimately the one area where I think a new owner could realistically improve us.

But this is the circle we complete every few months

- ENIC runs a self funded model, and there is a legitimate statement that said model will not get us top level success (it probably should have got us a trophy or two) and will not allow us to really compete with money doping clubs.

My objection is the subset who can't just say that, the PL model is broken and full of cheaters, so I want us to join the cheaters as well. Instead, we have to justify that ENIC/Levy are the worse owners ever and destroying the club (and throw in some antisemitic brick for free) and anyone who disagree is an idiot, apologists, etc.

As for the protestors/grumblers, including away fans and those in stadium, it's absolutely influenced by social media, our social media (twitter/youtube/etc.) has gone from reasonably balanced two years ago to full on AFTV. We have full on become the fanbase that is entitled, that waits "to be entertained" before we back our side, the atmosphere at the stadium is absolute brick and it starts with the south stand, and someone will tell me it's the football and my answer is the atmosphere at WHL was never like that, and we were worse and tickets weren't cheap then, we have changed, not the club.

 

[Finney Is Back]

But this is the circle we complete every few months

- ENIC runs a self funded model, and there is a legitimate statement that said model will not get us top level success (it probably should have got us a trophy or two) and will not allow us to really compete with money doping clubs.

My objection is the subset who can't just say that, the PL model is broken and full of cheaters, so I want us to join the cheaters as well. Instead, we have to justify that ENIC/Levy are the worse owners ever and destroying the club (and throw in some antisemitic brick for free) and anyone who disagree is an idiot, apologists, etc.

As for the protestors/grumblers, including away fans and those in stadium, it's absolutely influenced by social media, our social media (twitter/youtube/etc.) has gone from reasonably balanced two years ago to full on AFTV. We have full on become the fanbase that is entitled, that waits "to be entertained" before we back our side, the atmosphere at the stadium is absolute brick and it starts with the south stand, and someone will tell me it's the football and my answer is the atmosphere at WHL was never like that, and we were worse and tickets weren't cheap then, we have changed, not the club.

I don’t think anyone (or at least very few) want us to cheat. I think most probably just want us to operate at the limit of FFP instead of constantly being way below the limit.

 

[Raziel]

I don’t think anyone (or at least very few) want us to cheat. I think most probably just want us to operate at the limit of FFP instead of constantly being way below the limit.

And that is a legitimate ask, and there are some who would welcome the full on cheat mode (and that's them).

It's not me, but my view isn't others and doesn't need to be.

I just don't understand/connect with the catastrophe narrative

 

[Lilbaz]

I don’t think anyone (or at least very few) want us to cheat. I think most probably just want us to operate at the limit of FFP instead of constantly being way below the limit.

We have raised spending though and are getting closer to the ffp limit.

You have to remember the new spending rules are based on amortisation and wages (every player over 21/coach counts towards it). So once you reach the limit you'll have to sell to buy. Which i'm sure the fans will love.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We have raised spending though and are getting closer to the ffp limit.

You have to remember the new spending rules are based on amortisation and wages (every player over 21/coach counts towards it). So once you reach the limit you'll have to sell to buy. Which i'm sure the fans will love.

£50m short this set of accounts. Likely even further short in the next set and that is ignoring the £300+ million of leeway we had under the old rules. I wonder whether there will be any other PL clubs as far under the line as we are?

 

[scaramanga]

£50m short this set of accounts. Likely even further short in the next set and that is ignoring the £300+ million of leeway we had under the old rules. I wonder whether there will be any other PL clubs as far under the line as we are?

£50m isn't a lot short if you need to get rid of a player or two at a loss or revenue falls under projections.

Do you run your business at the absolute limit of credit or cash at all times?

 

[Grays_1890]

£50m short this set of accounts. Likely even further short in the next set and that is ignoring the £300+ million of leeway we had under the old rules. I wonder whether there will be any other PL clubs as far under the line as we are?

50m, which is about 3/4 of the standard of players more are expecting, or 1 Porro, so thats pretty close TBH

 

[Lilbaz]

£50m short this set of accounts. Likely even further short in the next set and that is ignoring the £300+ million of leeway we had under the old rules.

I have us at around 55%. So yes under the 70%. Although i have not included agents fees and only counted £15m for conte, no idea what the rest of the coaching staff comes too.

 

[Finney Is Back]

£50m isn't a lot short if you need to get rid of a player or two at a loss or revenue falls under projections.

Do you run your business at the absolute limit of credit or cash at all times?

I operate my capital ratio and leverage right up to the limits yes.

 

[Grays_1890]

£50m isn't a lot short if you need to get rid of a player or two at a loss or revenue falls under projections.

Do you run your business at the absolute limit of credit or cash at all times?

Cash that the club had to show on the books around the time of the stadium build in order to negotiate such favourable terms with the bank loans

 

[Finney Is Back]

50m, which is about 3/4 of the standard of players more are expecting, or 1 Porro, so thats pretty close TBH

Actually in theory it is 4 or 5 of them seeing as they are amortised over the length of their contract.

 

[scaramanga]

I operate my capital ratio and leverage right up to the limits yes.

So what would you do if something unexpected happens and you find yourself the wrong side of credit covenants?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I have us at around 55%. So yes under the 70%. Although i have not included agents fees and only counted £15m for conte, no idea what the rest of the coaching staff comes too.

Except the limit isn’t 70% yet is it?…. It is 90%. I bet other PL clubs are trying to comply to the limits for the current year instead of complying now with the limits 2 years forward.

 

[Lilbaz]

Actually in theory it is 4 or 5 of them seeing as they are amortised over the length of their contract.

Not when you count wages and agents fees.