ENIC

[RigorMortis]

Tickets prices have never really equated to the level of competitiveness of the team on the pitch in football so im not sure why you are looking to use that as your yardstick to measure our performance. Our prices are high because of supply/demand the fact we are based in London and because our facilities are among the best in the world.

The argument for why ENIC could succeed moving forwards is a simple one so doesn't really need to be repeated all the time - money is king in football, the stadium gives us more money therefore our chances for success increases with our bottom line, it's not a magic bullet though and requires the money to be invested correctly/wisely - which we have done in the past over several years/managers & DoFs (from Arnesen & Comoli to Baldini & Mitchell and Jol & Redknapp to Poch and hopefully Conte) so there's a clear precedent that we can invest well and build the football side up to a competitive level with ENIC running the club.

What isn't actually given any substance is your earlier assertion that we'll end up a 6th-8th place team under ENIC because there currently is no precedent for that beyond singular bad seasons which are usually the catalyst for a change on the football side of things.

I mentioned that point that there are other factors involved.
I am looking from a nirvana perspective just like other posters here in a pro ENIC stance will claim it’s a shame that city or Chelsea were taken over, or if they are waiting for the aforementioned and others to fall away and implode.

On your point over where there is no substance we revert to 5-8 positions after a bounce

let’s look at it

under Jol two fifth place finishes and then 11th and 8th
Redknapp comes in his three full seasons 4,5,4
Under avb and sherwood 5th and then 6th
Poch 5th,3rd,2nd,3rd,4th
Since then 6th,7th and currrently 8th

what I actually said if was that under ENIC we will occasionally get a CL place and then stay around the 5th to 7th/8th

I can’t see how I haven’t added substance there, it’s not singular bad seasons but a clear pattern of bouncing around and then reverting back.

the outlier being the consistency under Poch of four successive cl seasons

Also I don’t think I have suggested that money isn’t king or the stadium won’t generate funds or that we should have a magic bullet. I’m not sure where

it’s more on what ENIC’s motives are, I don’t think they are invested in making us compete and more on priming the club up for a sale.

I will repeat it again
I do not think ENIC are not doing a good job because they don’t spend money on city or Chelsea levels

I don’t believe they are doing a good job because they are( and again I state in my opinion) they are happy to see us as a top half premier league club with the occasional champions league push,
It serves their interests to be risk averse

I think descision son the footballing side are poor, chopping and changing managers and going for the sexiest options and indecisiveness in the transfer market

 

[RigorMortis]

So not building the new stadium? And borrowing instead to invest more into the playing staff? Many fans seem to think it is not so much we haven't spent money, it's that we've spent it badly the last couple of years.

That’s what I have said as well
It’s not about spending money but spending money wisely

I’m not sure where I’ve put it any differently

and I ask you again why do you think ENIC’s model will get us to break the glass ceiling

 

[SpurMeUp]

That’s what I have said as well
It’s not about spending money but spending money wisely

I’m not sure where I’ve put it any differently

and I ask you again why do you think ENIC’s model will get us to break the glass ceiling

I don't think Enic will compete with oil-subsidised clubs. Which non-oil funded clubs consistently do? That is where your wrath should be directed - that leagues and competitions are skewed in favour of clubs who are subsidised by sales of a polluting resource.

That said, Enic's model is sustainable. If Ambranovick pulls out, chelsea would sink without another benefactor. Enic have done what they can in terms of lifting the clubs profile, facilities and profitability. We can now invest more than we ever have in players and that's year in year out. It doesn't compete with City and Chelsea because they are subsidised. If more people focused on this, and made more noises about it, then Spurs (and arsnal, united and pool) would benifit. Longer-term leagues will want to ensure there is more robust controls on buying success. As it leaves fans without hope and passion. Clubs who are capable of winning trophies are not competing on a equal footing - that is clear isn't it?

 

[Lemonade Money]

Back in the eighties, we were a cup team because that was our level (the last time we were winning stuff regularly). Once CL money (Top 4) overtook cups in importance, Levy concentrated on making us a Top 4 club, which he did pretty well at considering our monetary level. Now that we have the financial backing of the stadium, I think I would like us to go back to concentrating on cups (for the glory), and every now and then when the stars collide, we may get a shot at the league/CL.
Our player and manager acquisitions have always been far better getting people who are making a step up, and we should go back to that model rather than trying to compete with clubs we can't compete with. The fact we got Jol, Redknapp, Pochettino, Modric, Berbatov, Eriksen, Son, Bale and Dele was because the bigger clubs have bigger fish to fry. They all made a step up.

 

[billyiddo]

I mentioned that point that there are other factors involved.
I am looking from a nirvana perspective just like other posters here in a pro ENIC stance will claim it’s a shame that city or Chelsea were taken over, or if they are waiting for the aforementioned and others to fall away and implode.

On your point over where there is no substance we revert to 5-8 positions after a bounce

let’s look at it

under Jol two fifth place finishes and then 11th and 8th
Redknapp comes in his three full seasons 4,5,4
Under avb and sherwood 5th and then 6th
Poch 5th,3rd,2nd,3rd,4th
Since then 6th,7th and currrently 8th

what I actually said if was that under ENIC we will occasionally get a CL place and then stay around the 5th to 7th/8th

I can’t see how I haven’t added substance there, it’s not singular bad seasons but a clear pattern of bouncing around and then reverting back.

the outlier being the consistency under Poch of four successive cl seasons

Also I don’t think I have suggested that money isn’t king or the stadium won’t generate funds or that we should have a magic bullet. I’m not sure where

it’s more on what ENIC’s motives are, I don’t think they are invested in making us compete and more on priming the club up for a sale.

I will repeat it again
I do not think ENIC are not doing a good job because they don’t spend money on city or Chelsea levels

I don’t believe they are doing a good job because they are( and again I state in my opinion) they are happy to see us as a top half premier league club with the occasional champions league push,
It serves their interests to be risk averse

I think descision son the footballing side are poor, chopping and changing managers and going for the sexiest options and indecisiveness in the transfer market

You said 6th to 8th with the odd foray in to 4th - (go back and check if you like) which like i said and as your list of finishes show there is no precedent for - our recent run of top 6 finishes was the most consistent run of top end league finishes in our history, for example and yet you think we're going to mostly finish below that - strange.

We're going to more or less be the 4th/5th richest team in the league so that's going to be our base level to measure against.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sorry what?

why would I be jealous? So your guess at least in my case is wrong
I’m not five years old?
I’m Walthamstow born and bred and grew up round the corner from Spurs.
My support isn’t defined by spurs being successful or not.
Rather I am frustrated.
However I am well within my rights to criticise owners who have been here over twenty years, in my opinion have used the club to their own benefit and we have seen little success on the pitch in that time.

Yes you are well within your rights to criticise. What i don't like is some fans creating a negative atmosphere at games and wanting spurs to lose thinking it will miraculously get new owners.
Criticisms should be fair though and based on fact.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That’s what I have said as well
It’s not about spending money but spending money wisely

I’m not sure where I’ve put it any differently

and I ask you again why do you think ENIC’s model will get us to break the glass ceiling

Spending money wisely is the key for any side unless your Chelsea or city
We have had too many poor signings of late, but I would have probably brought all of them myself
Clubs that aren’t doped cannot afford a low hit rate on signings

 

[Lilbaz]

I mentioned that point that there are other factors involved.
I am looking from a nirvana perspective just like other posters here in a pro ENIC stance will claim it’s a shame that city or Chelsea were taken over, or if they are waiting for the aforementioned and others to fall away and implode.

On your point over where there is no substance we revert to 5-8 positions after a bounce

let’s look at it

under Jol two fifth place finishes and then 11th and 8th
Redknapp comes in his three full seasons 4,5,4
Under avb and sherwood 5th and then 6th
Poch 5th,3rd,2nd,3rd,4th
Since then 6th,7th and currrently 8th

what I actually said if was that under ENIC we will occasionally get a CL place and then stay around the 5th to 7th/8th

I can’t see how I haven’t added substance there, it’s not singular bad seasons but a clear pattern of bouncing around and then reverting back.

the outlier being the consistency under Poch of four successive cl seasons

Also I don’t think I have suggested that money isn’t king or the stadium won’t generate funds or that we should have a magic bullet. I’m not sure where

it’s more on what ENIC’s motives are, I don’t think they are invested in making us compete and more on priming the club up for a sale.

I will repeat it again
I do not think ENIC are not doing a good job because they don’t spend money on city or Chelsea levels

I don’t believe they are doing a good job because they are( and again I state in my opinion) they are happy to see us as a top half premier league club with the occasional champions league push,
It serves their interests to be risk averse

I think descision son the footballing side are poor, chopping and changing managers and going for the sexiest options and indecisiveness in the transfer market

You realise we're the 6th biggest team in england? So our natural league finish should be 6th. When enic took over we were a mid table team.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

That’s what I have said as well
It’s not about spending money but spending money wisely

I’m not sure where I’ve put it any differently

and I ask you again why do you think ENIC’s model will get us to break the glass ceiling

You haven’t mate and in fact none of us have. These posters will just use their tried and tested methods of straw manning and pretending we all want a sugar daddy to come in and spend billions on players. Just like that guy earlier who said we want the 40 best players in the world etc.

What I have repeatedly called for and lament is that our owner hasn’t put his hand into his own pocket one single time in 20 plus years for player recruitment. We dont want a roman or sheikh (I’ve said this many many times) but why when levy has negotiated a moutinho or fernandes deal to the absolute hilt and no more movement was coming from the selling club, why couldnt that ultra rich taco who owns us not dip into his own pocket for a little bit of help, £10m here and a bit more there, to get these game changing deals over the line.

If he just did that now and again (maybe a dozen times in his 20 plus years) what would we have achieved? And the good will from fans would be huge, whilst at the same time the spend from his massive pockets would have been relatively minimal, lets say £200m over 20 plus years.

But he didnt do it and never will and for that reason I hate him and think he is a disgrace.

 

[RigorMortis]

You said 6th to 8th with the odd foray in to 4th - (go back and check if you like) which like i said and as your list of finishes show there is no precedent for - our recent run of top 6 finishes was the most consistent run of top end league finishes in our history, for example and yet you think we're going to mostly finish below that - strange.

“Funding has nothing to do with it, I don’t honk even with increased revenue are they prepared to invest the required amounts to make us truly competitive at the CL and PL challenging level and we will continue to lumber between 4th-7th”

That’s what I said, maybe me typing honk rather than think confused you and you have equated 4th-7th to 6th-8th

And I would say the positions I have posted support that we hover around fourth and then slide back to just outside the cl places and towards the Europa ones and that’s how i believe it will continue( and I have mentioned that I believe Poch was the outlier)

 

[RigorMortis]

Yes you are well within your rights to criticise. What i don't like is some fans creating a negative atmosphere at games and wanting spurs to lose thinking it will miraculously get new owners.
Criticisms should be fair though and based on fact.

This is a football forum and not a stadium so not quite sure why you are directing that towards me

 

[RigorMortis]

You realise we're the 6th biggest team in england? So our natural league finish should be 6th. When enic took over we were a mid table team.

Erm what?

have you taken that chap Baleforce’s pills on our fixed place in the football food chain

so let’s do everything in line with being sixth best including having the ticket prices as the sixth best

marvellous solution there

 

[Lilbaz]

This is a football forum and not a stadium so not quite sure why you are directing that towards me

I was just stating that some fans are doing that. I didn't say you were.

 

[billyiddo]

“Funding has nothing to do with it, I don’t honk even with increased revenue are they prepared to invest the required amounts to make us truly competitive at the CL and PL challenging level and we will continue to lumber between 4th-7th”

That’s what I said, maybe me typing honk rather than think confused you and you have equated 4th-7th to 6th-8th

And I would say the positions I have posted support that we hover around fourth and then slide back to just outside the cl places and towards the Europa ones and that’s how i believe it will continue( and I have mentioned that I believe Poch was the outlier)

I’ll repeat whilst ENIC may be great business people and have enhanced the value of their asset, I do not see us being anything either than a club which bumbles around between 6-8th with the occasional surges to 4th under them unless there is a drastic change in their

Cheers

 

[RigorMortis]

You haven’t mate and in fact none of us have. These posters will just use their tried and tested methods of straw manning and pretending we all want a sugar daddy to come in and spend billions on players. Just like that guy earlier who said we want the 40 best players in the world etc.

What I have repeatedly called for and lament is that our owner hasn’t put his hand into his own pocket one single time in 20 plus years for player recruitment. We dont want a roman or sheikh (I’ve said this many many times) but why when levy has negotiated a moutinho or fernandes deal to the absolute hilt and no more movement was coming from the selling club, why couldnt that ultra rich taco who owns us not dip into his own pocket for a little bit of help, £10m here and a bit more there, to get these game changing deals over the line.

If he just did that now and again (maybe a dozen times in his 20 plus years) what would we have achieved? And the good will from fans would be huge, whilst at the same time the spend from his massive pockets would have been relatively minimal, lets say £200m over 20 plus years.

But he didnt do it and never will and for that reason I hate him and think he is a disgrace.

Yeah I’m starting to realise that any criticism of ENIC seems to negate any nature of coherent debate

 

[Lilbaz]

Erm what?

have you taken that chap Baleforce’s pills on our fixed place in the football food chain

so let’s do everything in line with being sixth best including having the ticket prices as the sixth best

marvellous solution there

No we should always aim higher. If we finish higher than 6th though we've performed above expectations. If we finish lower we've done worse.

 

[RigorMortis]

Cheers

Fair enough but I think the general context of what I’ve said is consistent

And the stats support that don’t they ( with Poch being the outlier)

Maybe to avoid it let’s say we will lumber around the Europa / Europa conference league places with the occasional foray into champions league

does that make it clearer?

And the stats under ENIC seem to justify it.
It’s a shame that I think you probably understood the context but decided instead to be pedantic

 

[RigorMortis]

No we should always aim higher. If we finish higher than 6th though we've performed above expectations. If we finish lower we've done worse.

Well it depends how you define expectations

that’s subjective

 

[Jeff Brooks]

I give credit to ENIC/Levy for a world class Training facility and a World class Stadium - but, of course, those facilities are terrific assets on a balance sheet and therefore the club's valuation, so obvious self interest there - not a terrible thing but lets remember it was a business decision first and foremost.

On building a scouting team and a player academy that really is poor - very few coming through (Winks, Tanganga - not doing it for me, sorry) and lots of misses from the scouting team - N'jie, Clarke and further back Defendi - load of players that didn't come through. That aspect is barely a 2 out of 10.

And then there is the main transfer policy - never changing and generally hopeless - almost always waiting until the final day of a window to tie up a couple of deals - having crept towards them with glacial pace through the rest of the window. We all know the tactics - bid VERY low - almost insultingly low - and then creep incrementally towards what the selling club want but playing brinkmanship with them for weeks. Looking for cheap bargains - Rodon, not Skriniar, N'Jie, not Mane - hoping that they will be as good at a quarter of the cost. Leaving things so late that they can't get the deal over the line - Moutinho, who could have been the final great piece in the jigsaw of that very good team.

And it all sounds so difficult and protracted - other clubs don't seem to suffer from all these issues - they get the deal done - Pool come in for Diaz, done in a day. Yet some of the posters on here lionise the Chairman for his wonderful negotiating skills - yet if they were so good I suggest we might have produced a team that actually won trophies. I don't get great pleasure from the Chairman bagging a player for a couple of a million less than we think the selling team wanted if that player has no pre-season because he arrives on transfer deadline day. Mr Levy must be a nightmare to negotiate with and other club's Chairmen must abhor his tactics - and that isn't a good thing - the best deals are win-win, developing goodwill not antagonism and mistrust.

So on transfer policy I can't even give a one out of ten. And I know posters will pile in saying that Paratici is now in charge of transfers but do you really think a money man like Levy simply delegates all negotiations and final pricing to Paratici? Its not in his make up to do that. Paratici will be into the finer print and dealing with the agents but Levy is a full time (executive) Chairman and will be heavily involved in multi million pound decisions.

So many posters on here just seem to make excuses for ENIC/Levy - how can you be content with such a terrible performance in 20 years - ONE trophy? So how long will we harp back to the CL Final - saying how only three years ago we were finalists? Move on - where will we be in two years' time? And with Harry either gone or in his later career stage and disillusioned, Conte gone, scratching around for sixth place - how can we be happy with that outlook? Please tell me what will change after 20 years of ENICs MO?

 

[Lilbaz]

I give credit to ENIC/Levy for a world class Training facility and a World class Stadium - but, of course, those facilities are terrific assets on a balance sheet and therefore the club's valuation, so obvious self interest there - not a terrible thing but lets remember it was a business decision first and foremost.

On building a scouting team and a player academy that really is poor - very few coming through (Winks, Tanganga - not doing it for me, sorry) and lots of misses from the scouting team - N'jie, Clarke and further back Defendi - load of players that didn't come through. That aspect is barely a 2 out of 10.

And then there is the main transfer policy - never changing and generally hopeless - almost always waiting until the final day of a window to tie up a couple of deals - having crept towards them with glacial pace through the rest of the window. We all know the tactics - bid VERY low - almost insultingly low - and then creep incrementally towards what the selling club want but playing brinkmanship with them for weeks. Looking for cheap bargains - Rodon, not Skriniar, N'Jie, not Mane - hoping that they will be as good at a quarter of the cost. Leaving things so late that they can't get the deal over the line - Moutinho, who could have been the final great piece in the jigsaw of that very good team.

And it all sounds so difficult and protracted - other clubs don't seem to suffer from all these issues - they get the deal done - Pool come in for Diaz, done in a day. Yet some of the posters on here lionise the Chairman for his wonderful negotiating skills - yet if they were so good I suggest we might have produced a team that actually won trophies. I don't get great pleasure from the Chairman bagging a player for a couple of a million less than we think the selling team wanted if that player has no pre-season because he arrives on transfer deadline day. Mr Levy must be a nightmare to negotiate with and other club's Chairmen must abhor his tactics - and that isn't a good thing - the best deals are win-win, developing goodwill not antagonism and mistrust.

So on transfer policy I can't even give a one out of ten. And I know posters will pile in saying that Paratici is now in charge of transfers but do you really think a money man like Levy simply delegates all negotiations and final pricing to Paratici? Its not in his make up to do that. Paratici will be into the finer print and dealing with the agents but Levy is a full time (executive) Chairman and will be heavily involved in multi million pound decisions.

So many posters on here just seem to make excuses for ENIC/Levy - how can you be content with such a terrible performance in 20 years - ONE trophy? So how long will we harp back to the CL Final - saying how only three years ago we were finalists? Move on - where will we be in two years' time? And with Harry either gone or in his later career stage and disillusioned, Conte gone, scratching around for sixth place - how can we be happy with that outlook? Please tell me what will change after 20 years of ENICs MO?

Yes 1 trophy is not good enough. But we've been runners up 5 times and got to 7 semis that we lost. Our league positions in thd last 10 years has on average been the highest in the clubs history. Averaging 4.5 in the league. Compared to the glory years which was 4.6. The 10 years prior to enic our average league position was 10.8.
All the while with investing in the stadium and training ground. Now we will start seeing the benefits from that and hopefully turn those runners up places into wins.

Yes our recruitment the last 5 years has been bad.
Bringing in mourinho and nuno were bad choices.
Yes we dither too long on transfers and i would like us to us more decisive in who we want and get them sewn up before preseason starts.
If new investors or owners come in brilliant. But enic haven't ruined our club and levy doesn't deserve the hate.