Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Gazza]

I'm not entrenched because I'm willing to change, it's just levy keep confirming with his pattern of work.

If he changes I'm not going to lie to myself and claim things are as they've always been. I give credit where it's due and corn when that's due too.

You've never seen me complain about signing Ndombele or Lo Celso, or Janssen or even Sanchez as those are the type of signings that make sense for a club of our positioning.

But not backing the manager when we've finally qualified for the CL or the January we genuinely had a chance at the title or the 3 Windows of no players for Poch. Or letting Eriksen's deal run down. Those things will get corn from me every day.

I care about what I see on the pitch. That's my concern.

The thing what gets me is that he has had ample chances to revise and change his strategy to work well within the confines of the team and budget, or even with some unlikely dreaming of slightly pushing the boat out to get the team across the line .. he has repeatedly stuck to his failing ways.

This suggests to me that he will not change and will stick to this as long as he is charge = No success under Enic.

 

[Bishop]

Or maybe it's not that they are blind to Levy but admit that they don't know what goes on behind the scenes. There's so many rumor's about what goes on and one half contradicts the other half. All teams have players come in at the last min, if that didn't happen Sky and BT wouldn't have deadline day shows devoted to deals being completed on the last day.

This answer suggests then you can never criticise because you don't know the true details which is fair enough. It also though does mean you can not give any praise either. [emoji2379]

 

[billyiddo]

This answer suggests then you can never criticise because you don't know the true details which is fair enough. It also though does mean you can not give any praise either. https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji2379.png

There's no use, imo, getting in to the nuts and bolts of (most) individual decisions - owners should be judged on medium to long term performance (managers on short to medium term) the who what where and whys are mostly by the by afaic - you're either getting enough right to move forwards or getting too much wrong and are going backwards.

atm over the medium term we are performing poorly so Levy & co are called in to question - as most people seem to be doing over a variety of issues (signings/Poch>Mourinho etc) - prior to this we were progressing well over the medium to long term and so they were either being praised by "fan boys" or ignored by "haters", swings and roundabouts - i think the push back comes when things ramp up to a point that people want to see change, at which point the whole tenure and other things come in to discussion, not just whether we are on a bad run or not.

 

[parklane1]

I think people have legitimate grievance with them (and those are justified), I would argue either they are not debating the points well or are too easily pulled into media narratives (which frustrates me more, go after Levy/ENIC, but don't take a flimflam narrative against our club and keep repeating it). e.g. The club has no ambition, clearly not true, you don't build the infrastructure we have due to no ambition, you don't hire Jose (even if it's a bad decision) due to no ambition, you don't fire managers who don't get you CL due to no ambition (may be unrealistic expectations but not lack of ambition)

The stadium was an unbelievably complicated project that I think very few people will ever really appreciate, the decade of planning/approval then the changes of scope (include NFL), the work done (I know they did site visits of stadiums all over the world to compare, got ideas). The timing is a good & bad, the bad was the best team in recent memory pretty much peaking when we had to be away in Wembley, Brexit with cost implications, delays leading to it not being one season out but almost two. The good, it's funded on the lowest interest rates ever and most importantly it's done, with Covid and the financial implications, if it wasn't started/finished, it probably would be pushed off for years.

I could go through you list and debate point by point but to make it simple as @billyiddo said -> yes they have been mistakes, many, I don't think anyone believes otherwise (and this is the crux of this whole thread, a few people see this as @Junior19, i.e. a balance of those mistakes (and no club is without them), as you have said with your dial reference, does the current ownership do/have done more to benefit or not, and a few lean towards the positive a few lean towards the negative.

What is massively frustrating is not that, it's the people (here, Reddit, twitter, all social media) who will non-figuratively take anything, a player leaving/staying, us getting a player, us not getting a player, the manager situation, any random internet rumour and translating that somehow into = see, bald man bad, fudge Levy, especially when it's something that has been addressed previously.

The player conversation is always more nuanced than people would admit, yes we could have spent more, arguably we should have spent more but for every Bruno Fernandes & Dias there are a dozen like Hazard (to Madrid), Fred, Sanchez (to United), take your pick at Chelsea, we have spent a lot of money on Sanchez, we spent money on Soldado, we have spent a lot of money on Ndombele (that may work out)

Poch like the player conversation is nuanced, the timing/stadium delays hurt him directly (probably fund availability, and the points/games being at home would have pushed us that little further), he also didn't help himself (the book, the stupid pre CL final comments, what looked like frustration/burnout being publicly visible, his apparent hesitancy with taking players), and I believe Levy was distracted by the stadium and that impacted the refresh (easy example of allowing Eriksen to run down contract, I believe without stadium it would never have happened), do I believe in the end it was a mistake to fire him = no. The things that led to the situation were mistakes, but with players no longer giving a fudge (something that has continued), results not improving, Poch seeming to not be "all up for the fight", historical evidence that shows these slumps don't fix themselves, it was the logical thing to do.

And again, for those who want to have a real discussion, let's assume Poch is at least considering returning?

- Your response and others have been = see, Levy is a fudge up, should never have fired Poch in the first place
- Do you not see how well Spurs must actually be run for a manger at PSG to even consider leaving them for fudging Spurs? this is Poch's moment, he's made the step into the elite clubs, won two trophies, his next step should be Madrid/United, if he's even considering Spurs, then a lot of the assumptions made re Levy/ENIC simply cannot be true.

I think that is a fair summing up of our position, i would hope that once fans have read it and taken it all in they would reflect on all the calling out that is going on. Sadly i will not hold my breath for that to happen.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

My issues with Levy aren't really related to the last 3 or 4 years. They started 10 years ago with the season following our qualification for the CL. We had finally reached the Holy Grail of Champions League qualification after many years or trying.

To continue our tragectory of progression we desperately needed a striker as the ones we had at the time weren't up to par. Pav and Bent were unfavoured, Defoe had the season of his career but only scored 2 in the second half of the season and we could all see that he was a very streaky striker and unsuited to the way we were now playing.

A striker was absolutely positively our number 1 priority. Yet not for the last time Levy decided in his wisdom not to follow his managers wishes and left the team to stagnant. There was talk of Forlan, Damiao, Cavani and a few other numbers I don't remember now. the names don't matter I would have taken anyone. If you remember our only incomings that season were old shop worn Gallas (cheap) and the last minute reprieve signing of VDV which would not have happened if Real Madrid did not offer him up. So going in to that last day of the window Levy was perfectly happy to not improve the weakest part of the side at all in the very season that we were now going to face our toughest challenge.

This was enough for me to realise that success on the pitch does not interest Levy. It's not his primary concern. Instead a caution and paralysis when the decisive moment occurs is a reoccurring pattern.

So the last few years aren't of any surprise to me. Whenever we have progressed and appear to be ready to take the next stage Levy gets stage fright and stops adding to the squad.

It's as if he believes that our players having gotten us to wherever they have will suffice for the foreseeable future and it never works. We always go into a period of regression directly after progressing.

I've never been one asking to just spunk the money, I think our budgets are workable but just like he expects for his managers to over perform he needs to also over perform in the transfer windows and for me he far from does that.

I think Levy / ENIC are willing to spend more than 14 other clubs in the league to maintain our position in the top 6, but they aren't willing to do more. Because they know they can't sustain a financial fight with the clubs above us unless we have the stadium and the predictable revenues from everything it brings. So for Levy, it's not that he gets scared, it's that it's never the plan. He could do it once, but then we'd get on a negative spiral, we'd get less good rates from banks, we'd have to sell off players to make ends meet, and the whole plan around our club of having regular European football will not work.

I actually think it is good, well thought through strategy. It makes sense. I can just completely see why people would want new owners to allow us to compete at the higher level, because I understand people who say there is no glory in 'doing it the right way' if we keep making boneheaded decisions on the football side.

 

[thfcsteff]

No one on this board could tell me that they would prefer levy over the owners of Emirates Marketing Project. Not one, all this flim clan of doing it the right way is stupid.

The modern game closely shows that the richest team will usually rise to the top.

Levy is not stupid and done his best with the tools he has had. But he has fell short terribly with support on the pitch but made large strides off it.

And also just because it's not levy it doesn't mean that the new owner will do a Leeds or whatever .... talk about doomsday fear mongering.

Levy and Enic have made the club self sustainable hoping that we remain "competitive", but I bet he would take the money and run if a stupid offer came in. A stupid offer that he and Joe are waiting for. He didn't have the minerals to make this club run as consistent winners but knows how to spin a story.

Allow me. Capt Stupid ...from Shinawatra to Mansour, City's sponsors are nasty pieces of brick. I am not suggesting Joe Lewis might not have some dirt under his fingernails, but it isn't going to be blood and human rights. fudge them and fudge that.

 

[thfcsteff]

See I don't get this play thing idea either, I respect your opinion ... but surely this is looking like a levy enic investment thing which is just as bad?

I think I just want owners who are ambitious on the pitch not just ones to be proud of a P&L.

This is what makes our recent past so utterly soul-destroying. We were right there, we nearly were the impossible dream... and then...

 

[DubSpur]

This answer suggests then you can never criticise because you don't know the true details which is fair enough. It also though does mean you can not give any praise either. [emoji2379]

You can give praise and criticise for things that are fact, not things that you don't know or are guessing at. You can have an opinion on what is likely true, but some of the venom towards Levy on here based purely on speculation and guess work is ridiculous.
We know he hired Poch deserves praise for that, he hired Mourinho, deserves criticism for that (although I can understand why he did it).
There's plenty of things like that is fair game for criticism and praise, but trying to blame him for transfers that none of us have a clue who's responsible for and then in the next give praise for another signing to the manager, it just screams of an agenda.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is what makes our recent past so utterly soul-destroying. We were right there, we nearly were the impossible dream... and then...

The money ran out

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think Levy / ENIC are willing to spend more than 14 other clubs in the league to maintain our position in the top 6, but they aren't willing to do more. Because they know they can't sustain a financial fight with the clubs above us unless we have the stadium and the predictable revenues from everything it brings. So for Levy, it's not that he gets scared, it's that it's never the plan. He could do it once, but then we'd get on a negative spiral, we'd get less good rates from banks, we'd have to sell off players to make ends meet, and the whole plan around our club of having regular European football will not work.

I actually think it is good, well thought through strategy. It makes sense. I can just completely see why people would want new owners to allow us to compete at the higher level, because I understand people who say there is no glory in 'doing it the right way' if we keep making boneheaded decisions on the football side.

I think enic are happy to spend as much moeny as we make
Their not happy to spend money we don’t make
They don’t actually have much other income in ENIC either don’t forget

 

[Finney Is Back]

Because even the most ardent Levy critic doesn't usually need to worry about us managing money?

The debt, or even final interest paid isn't the issue, it's what do we owe per year and outside of the £175M, which was to my understanding a contingency as we had massively reduced income (therefore separate from stadium debt), all indication seemed that the re-payments were well within our ability (add in our very low wage cost %, it meant we were ok)

I'd repeat, no football club is in a great position now

Surely we absolutely have to worry about over £1.4billion of gross debt? (the biggest debt in football). What was Leeds’ debt to turnover ratio when they went pop?

 

[Bishop]

You can give praise and criticise for things that are fact, not things that you don't know or are guessing at. You can have an opinion on what is likely true, but some of the venom towards Levy on here based purely on speculation and guess work is ridiculous.
We know he hired Poch deserves praise for that, he hired Mourinho, deserves criticism for that (although I can understand why he did it).
There's plenty of things like that is fair game for criticism and praise, but trying to blame him for transfers that none of us have a clue who's responsible for and then in the next give praise for another signing to the manager, it just screams of an agenda.

That sounds like you want to create an echo chamber where only praise is possible. If we speak only of the verifiable facts then only signings made will count.

You do see how that creates an culture where mainly the good things that are done are counted.

Positive work is also about the decisions you chose not to make as much as it does the ones you do.

So if we are not to critique the things we don't have 100% clarity on (and I think that is a fair angle to take) then as I said earlier no praise can also be given because you have created a echo chamber where only praise is likely.

 

[metalgear]

Perhaps the way forward is to have Levy and his cronies can go on tinkering with the rest of the stadium (franchising, overseas revenue, sponsorships, corporate events and hospitality, community development .. Theres still aot more to be done).

But also invest in a separate process and structure for player transfers, team development and coaching. Even without mega money we can invest and trade wisely to grow the value of of the youth and senior squads over time and become more competitive.

A dof comes to mind but more than that how he/she is given sufficient autonomy for hard decisions. Not just player decisions but also the emotionally risky stuff like Replacing mason, Powell, King with industry specialists e.g. Mcdermott or the like poaching them from other clubs or the fa.




Sent from my SM-T865 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[DubSpur]

That sounds like you want to create an echo chamber where only praise is possible. If we speak only of the verifiable facts then only signings made will count.

You do see how that creates an culture where mainly the good things that are done are counted.

Positive work is also about the decisions you chose not to make as much as it does the ones you do.

So if we are not to critique the things we don't have 100% clarity on (and I think that is a fair angle to take) then as I said earlier no praise can also be given because you have created a echo chamber where only praise is likely.

Read what I wrote, I gave an example of where Levy deserves criticism. It's the blaming everything bad on Levy and attributing everything good to a manager.
If you're going to blame Levy for the transfers that turn out badly, then he should also get the credit for the good ones. But that's not the case with a lot in here,
anything bad = Levy, anything good = nothing to do with Levy or got lucky. It's ridiculous. At least the likes of BrainofLevy, while being anti-Levy, is able to give credit
as well as criticism to Levy. It makes for a proper discussion when there's some facts on why you want Levy out rather than the rants and name calling by the,
to use your own words, "the anti-Levy cult"

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Read what I wrote, I gave an example of where Levy deserves criticism. It's the blaming everything bad on Levy and attributing everything good to a manager.
If you're going to blame Levy for the transfers that turn out badly, then he should also get the credit for the good ones. But that's not the case with a lot in here,
anything bad = Levy, anything good = nothing to do with Levy or got lucky. It's ridiculous. At least the likes of BrainofLevy, while being anti-Levy, is able to give credit
as well as criticism to Levy. It makes for a proper discussion when there's some facts on why you want Levy out rather than the rants and name calling by the,
to use your own words, "the anti-Levy cult"

It’s just extremes
No club buys everyone they want, even city
No club gets every call right even when money is no object for some
When things look like their going well it seems everything that needs to happen is happening
We never know the actual true story
So we have people guess and speculating from different perspectives with different baggage too
I genuinely believe we have brought every player we could afford that the club agreed they wanted. The key caveat being who we could afford of course
I also believe we see so much speculation written about who we want in the modern world it paints a skewed picture
Every club will have admiring glances at players they don’t have. Likewise other clubs will look at, and want some of ours.
But buying players is complicated. Financing has footballs deals are complicated (your buying the right to use people which is banned for pretty much every country when you simplify it)

 

[Robspur12]

Read what I wrote, I gave an example of where Levy deserves criticism. It's the blaming everything bad on Levy and attributing everything good to a manager.
If you're going to blame Levy for the transfers that turn out badly, then he should also get the credit for the good ones. But that's not the case with a lot in here,
anything bad = Levy, anything good = nothing to do with Levy or got lucky. It's ridiculous. At least the likes of BrainofLevy, while being anti-Levy, is able to give credit
as well as criticism to Levy. It makes for a proper discussion when there's some facts on why you want Levy out rather than the rants and name calling by the,
to use your own words, "the anti-Levy cult"

There is no poster on here who doesn’t give Levy credit for what he has done well? The infrastructure and the financial value of the club is in good hands, assuming the debt can be managed. Levy has had pretty much unconditional support from the fan base. The minute he’s criticised though, some posters jump on criticism even the plausible well thought out posts. There are several posters who are wilfully blind to any faults. Yet they have no more knowledge than those criticising!

But it’s things like waiting until a week before the cup final to sack a manager when Chelsea made the decision far more quickly (not the first time we have got rid of a manager before a big cup game of course). It’s lurching from one type of manager to another and generally appointing his best managers when he is put into a corner a la Redknapp or his first choices do not work out a la Jol and Poch. These things matter and are acknowledged by some but ignored by most in the eulogising of Levy. Ultimately ENIC are as @Finney Is Back says an investment company who will put their financial investment before the football side in a pretty risk averse way. I like Levy but I support the club not the owners.

 

[Gazza]

There is no poster on here who doesn’t give Levy credit for what he has done well? The infrastructure and the financial value of the club is in good hands, assuming the debt can be managed. Levy has had pretty much unconditional support from the fan base. The minute he’s criticised though, some posters jump on criticism even the plausible well thought out posts. There are several posters who are wilfully blind to any faults. Yet they have no more knowledge than those criticising!

But it’s things like waiting until a week before the cup final to sack a manager when Chelsea made the decision far more quickly (not the first time we have got rid of a manager before a big cup game of course). It’s lurching from one type of manager to another and generally appointing his best managers when he is put into a corner a la Redknapp or his first choices do not work out a la Jol and Poch. These things matter and are acknowledged by some but ignored by most in the eulogising of Levy. Ultimately ENIC are as @Finney Is Back says an investment company who will put their financial investment before the football side in a pretty risk averse way. I like Levy but I support the club not the owners.

Someone add the "Clapping Gif" of Leonardo Di Caprio

 

[DubSpur]

There is no poster on here who doesn’t give Levy credit for what he has done well? The infrastructure and the financial value of the club is in good hands, assuming the debt can be managed. Levy has had pretty much unconditional support from the fan base. The minute he’s criticised though, some posters jump on criticism even the plausible well thought out posts. There are several posters who are wilfully blind to any faults. Yet they have no more knowledge than those criticising!

But it’s things like waiting until a week before the cup final to sack a manager when Chelsea made the decision far more quickly (not the first time we have got rid of a manager before a big cup game of course). It’s lurching from one type of manager to another and generally appointing his best managers when he is put into a corner a la Redknapp or his first choices do not work out a la Jol and Poch. These things matter and are acknowledged by some but ignored by most in the eulogising of Levy. Ultimately ENIC are as @Finney Is Back says an investment company who will put their financial investment before the football side in a pretty risk averse way. I like Levy but I support the club not the owners.

Valid criticism. The statements that those eulogising Levy ignore his faults is no more valid than those that demonise him ignore what he does well.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There is no poster on here who doesn’t give Levy credit for what he has done well? The infrastructure and the financial value of the club is in good hands, assuming the debt can be managed. Levy has had pretty much unconditional support from the fan base. The minute he’s criticised though, some posters jump on criticism even the plausible well thought out posts. There are several posters who are wilfully blind to any faults. Yet they have no more knowledge than those criticising!

But it’s things like waiting until a week before the cup final to sack a manager when Chelsea made the decision far more quickly (not the first time we have got rid of a manager before a big cup game of course). It’s lurching from one type of manager to another and generally appointing his best managers when he is put into a corner a la Redknapp or his first choices do not work out a la Jol and Poch. These things matter and are acknowledged by some but ignored by most in the eulogising of Levy. Ultimately ENIC are as @Finney Is Back says an investment company who will put their financial investment before the football side in a pretty risk averse way. I like Levy but I support the club not the owners.

They 100% will protect the investment
It’s their role for their shareholders
They want money to keep the club going as a relevant concern

 

[scaramanga]

Surely we absolutely have to worry about over £1.4billion of gross debt? (the biggest debt in football). What was Leeds’ debt to turnover ratio when they went pop?

Debt to turnover really isn't of any relevance to anyone (except those attempting to force a point that's getting no traction).

Debt cover is all we need to be concerned about. I suspect our total repayments will be well under £50m per year - a fraction of our profit in even a bad (non-COVID) year.