Daniel Levy - Chairman

[DaveT316]

I think people have legitimate grievance with them (and those are justified), I would argue either they are not debating the points well or are too easily pulled into media narratives (which frustrates me more, go after Levy/ENIC, but don't take a flimflam narrative against our club and keep repeating it). e.g. The club has no ambition, clearly not true, you don't build the infrastructure we have due to no ambition, you don't hire Jose (even if it's a bad decision) due to no ambition, you don't fire managers who don't get you CL due to no ambition (may be unrealistic expectations but not lack of ambition)

The stadium was an unbelievably complicated project that I think very few people will ever really appreciate, the decade of planning/approval then the changes of scope (include NFL), the work done (I know they did site visits of stadiums all over the world to compare, got ideas). The timing is a good & bad, the bad was the best team in recent memory pretty much peaking when we had to be away in Wembley, Brexit with cost implications, delays leading to it not being one season out but almost two. The good, it's funded on the lowest interest rates ever and most importantly it's done, with Covid and the financial implications, if it wasn't started/finished, it probably would be pushed off for years.

I could go through you list and debate point by point but to make it simple as @billyiddo said -> yes they have been mistakes, many, I don't think anyone believes otherwise (and this is the crux of this whole thread, a few people see this as @Junior19, i.e. a balance of those mistakes (and no club is without them), as you have said with your dial reference, does the current ownership do/have done more to benefit or not, and a few lean towards the positive a few lean towards the negative.

What is massively frustrating is not that, it's the people (here, Reddit, twitter, all social media) who will non-figuratively take anything, a player leaving/staying, us getting a player, us not getting a player, the manager situation, any random internet rumour and translating that somehow into = see, bald man bad, fudge Levy, especially when it's something that has been addressed previously.

The player conversation is always more nuanced than people would admit, yes we could have spent more, arguably we should have spent more but for every Bruno Fernandes & Dias there are a dozen like Hazard (to Madrid), Fred, Sanchez (to United), take your pick at Chelsea, we have spent a lot of money on Sanchez, we spent money on Soldado, we have spent a lot of money on Ndombele (that may work out)

Poch like the player conversation is nuanced, the timing/stadium delays hurt him directly (probably fund availability, and the points/games being at home would have pushed us that little further), he also didn't help himself (the book, the stupid pre CL final comments, what looked like frustration/burnout being publicly visible, his apparent hesitancy with taking players), and I believe Levy was distracted by the stadium and that impacted the refresh (easy example of allowing Eriksen to run down contract, I believe without stadium it would never have happened), do I believe in the end it was a mistake to fire him = no. The things that led to the situation were mistakes, but with players no longer giving a fudge (something that has continued), results not improving, Poch seeming to not be "all up for the fight", historical evidence that shows these slumps don't fix themselves, it was the logical thing to do.

And again, for those who want to have a real discussion, let's assume Poch is at least considering returning?

- Your response and others have been = see, Levy is a fudge up, should never have fired Poch in the first place
- Do you not see how well Spurs must actually be run for a manger at PSG to even consider leaving them for fudging Spurs? this is Poch's moment, he's made the step into the elite clubs, won two trophies, his next step should be Madrid/United, if he's even considering Spurs, then a lot of the assumptions made re Levy/ENIC simply cannot be true.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

People don’t like nuance much these days. It seems to be all about following a binary narrative for a lot of people.

 

[Lilbaz]

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

People don’t like nuance much these days. It seems to be all about following a binary narrative for a lot of people.

Who you calling a nuance?

 

[Finney Is Back]

There's only 3 clubs in the country that are not in danger of doing a leeds. We're a £billion in debt. Don't assume it cannot happen to us. The way players transfers are done these days using installments means if one or two go that could cause a domino effect. The whole of ligue 1 (apart from psg) might go under this year.

Also why is it always leeds? Rangers, chelsea, liverpool, sunderland have all had massive financial problems in the last 20 years.

I did a few back of the fag packet calculations.... Our gross debt was £1.2 billion before our new round of funding (where we have replaced the £175m BoE loan with a new £250m facility). If we look at the interest terms of that new loan that has an average maturity of around 20 years, then we will be paying a total of £146.5m in interest on that £250m loan. If we remove the £175m BoE loan from our gross debt and add the new £250m loan plus interest.... Our gross debt is now around £1.42 billion.

I know lots on here think that is absolutely fine but it is a HUGE amount of debt for a business the size of THFC to be carrying.

One thing we don't yet know of course is our cash position, it may be that the club didn't use a great deal of the £175m BoE loan and we're still holding a reasonable portion of that as cash. If so then it is strange that we have taken out even more debt to pay it off?

 

[Raziel]

I did a few back of the fag packet calculations.... Our gross debt was £1.2 billion before our new round of funding (where we have replaced the £175m BoE loan with a new £250m facility). If we look at the interest terms of that new loan that has an average maturity of around 20 years, then we will be paying a total of £146.5m in interest on that £250m loan. If we remove the £175m BoE loan from our gross debt and add the new £250m loan plus interest.... Our gross debt is now around £1.42 billion.

I know lots on here think that is absolutely fine but it is a HUGE amount of debt for a business the size of THFC to be carrying.

One thing we don't yet know of course is our cash position, it may be that the club didn't use a great deal of the £175m BoE loan and we're still holding a reasonable portion of that as cash. If so then it is strange that we have taken out even more debt to pay it off?

We don't know, but if you could have cash at a very low interest rate, why not?

Who knows, maybe we might spend some of it on players ..

 

[Hotspur75]

Good post mate. One question you've asked a couple of times is whether sacking Poch in 2019 was wrong? And is bringing him back an admission that it was the wrong decision?

I'd have given him to the end of that season personally out of loyalty but I had no faith he could turn it around. He looked like a broken man. He was making strange noises. In the cold light of day, stripping away all sentiment, I think Levy was right to let him go at that point. The performances against Munich and Brighton were not Poch performances. There were many more in that last 12 months. But I place more responsibility on Levy for that than Poch. We broke him by watching him repeat miracles year after year, not backing him and expecting him to do the same thing again. By not backing him, Levy broke Poch to the point that there had to be a parting of ways. I don't blame Levy for the decision, I blame him for creating the conditions that meant the decision had to be made.

I'm thrilled Poch could be coming back. I really hope everyone has learned a hard lesson from this and we are aligned in the way you talk about. If Poch comes back, it has to be a long term thing. No one can afford this to blow up in our faces within a couple of years.

Excellent post, this is exactly how I see it.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We don't know, but if you could have cash at a very low interest rate, why not?

Who knows, maybe we might spend some of it on players ..

The 2021 accounts should tell all I expect.... Our debt mountain is a massive concern however and I find it strange that a few on here think it is of no concern at all.

 

[Raziel]

The 2021 accounts should tell all I expect.... Our debt mountain is a massive concern however and I find it strange that a few on here think it is of no concern at all.

Because even the most ardent Levy critic doesn't usually need to worry about us managing money?

The debt, or even final interest paid isn't the issue, it's what do we owe per year and outside of the £175M, which was to my understanding a contingency as we had massively reduced income (therefore separate from stadium debt), all indication seemed that the re-payments were well within our ability (add in our very low wage cost %, it meant we were ok)

I'd repeat, no football club is in a great position now

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think people have legitimate grievance with them (and those are justified), I would argue either they are not debating the points well or are too easily pulled into media narratives (which frustrates me more, go after Levy/ENIC, but don't take a flimflam narrative against our club and keep repeating it). e.g. The club has no ambition, clearly not true, you don't build the infrastructure we have due to no ambition, you don't hire Jose (even if it's a bad decision) due to no ambition, you don't fire managers who don't get you CL due to no ambition (may be unrealistic expectations but not lack of ambition)

The stadium was an unbelievably complicated project that I think very few people will ever really appreciate, the decade of planning/approval then the changes of scope (include NFL), the work done (I know they did site visits of stadiums all over the world to compare, got ideas). The timing is a good & bad, the bad was the best team in recent memory pretty much peaking when we had to be away in Wembley, Brexit with cost implications, delays leading to it not being one season out but almost two. The good, it's funded on the lowest interest rates ever and most importantly it's done, with Covid and the financial implications, if it wasn't started/finished, it probably would be pushed off for years.

I could go through you list and debate point by point but to make it simple as @billyiddo said -> yes they have been mistakes, many, I don't think anyone believes otherwise (and this is the crux of this whole thread, a few people see this as @Junior19, i.e. a balance of those mistakes (and no club is without them), as you have said with your dial reference, does the current ownership do/have done more to benefit or not, and a few lean towards the positive a few lean towards the negative.

What is massively frustrating is not that, it's the people (here, Reddit, twitter, all social media) who will non-figuratively take anything, a player leaving/staying, us getting a player, us not getting a player, the manager situation, any random internet rumour and translating that somehow into = see, bald man bad, fudge Levy, especially when it's something that has been addressed previously.

The player conversation is always more nuanced than people would admit, yes we could have spent more, arguably we should have spent more but for every Bruno Fernandes & Dias there are a dozen like Hazard (to Madrid), Fred, Sanchez (to United), take your pick at Chelsea, we have spent a lot of money on Sanchez, we spent money on Soldado, we have spent a lot of money on Ndombele (that may work out)

Poch like the player conversation is nuanced, the timing/stadium delays hurt him directly (probably fund availability, and the points/games being at home would have pushed us that little further), he also didn't help himself (the book, the stupid pre CL final comments, what looked like frustration/burnout being publicly visible, his apparent hesitancy with taking players), and I believe Levy was distracted by the stadium and that impacted the refresh (easy example of allowing Eriksen to run down contract, I believe without stadium it would never have happened), do I believe in the end it was a mistake to fire him = no. The things that led to the situation were mistakes, but with players no longer giving a fudge (something that has continued), results not improving, Poch seeming to not be "all up for the fight", historical evidence that shows these slumps don't fix themselves, it was the logical thing to do.

And again, for those who want to have a real discussion, let's assume Poch is at least considering returning?

- Your response and others have been = see, Levy is a fudge up, should never have fired Poch in the first place
- Do you not see how well Spurs must actually be run for a manger at PSG to even consider leaving them for fudging Spurs? this is Poch's moment, he's made the step into the elite clubs, won two trophies, his next step should be Madrid/United, if he's even considering Spurs, then a lot of the assumptions made re Levy/ENIC simply cannot be true.

I’m actually more on the side of it not being the decision to sack Poch which was the mistake, but the decisions leading up to sacking him which created the environment that he had to deal with, that was the mistake.

I think he was special, a real competitive advantage for us, and we blew it. Agreed, that if he comes back, we’ve clearly got something as a club, a platform that he thinks he can work from.

I am very interested in why we let ourselves blow it the first time though. If as @Bedfordspurs says it was spiralling costs, exchange rates working against us etc I will actually understand it. If it was ‘he was distracted’, I probably won’t. Because the buck stops with him, and as much as it was a complex project he’s the one that decides to oversee football matters as well as club business. So if he’s distracted and letting Eriksen’s contract run down, leading to a squad going stale when Poch’s whole reign was built on energy and vibrancy, that’s a bad move from Levy.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

That's not what Brain of Levy was saying, which is what i responding to.

We've regressed over 3-4 years so obviously the balance has been off

Maybe think of it less as have we made mistakes or not, but more could the plan have been altered slightly, to keep us broadly financially sustainable for the long term but increase the chances of trophies? As I said, turn the dial in a couple of notches.

It does feel like many times they’ve had a choice between risking it for success or staying conservative and in line with the financial plan, they stay conservative. I think that’s a fair critique of their ownership which has its plus points (we built a great stadium, we get loans at great rates from the banks, we can always spend our way back into the top 6 at a minimum and have not gone bottom half / suffered relegations) but has meant we have almost 0 trophies to show for it.

Could we have altered the strategy slightly is what I’m asking. I think it’s a fair question.

 

[Jeff Brooks]

(posted this on Next Manager thread as well)

I have watched Levy's MO for years and would expect the MOPO negotiations to go at the usual snails' pace that our transfers - ins and outs - follow.

On a slightly different subject - but related - I am slowly watching the Amazon series - I know, I am late (!) - but what stands out to me is that Levy is far too close to the footballing matters. He is far too accessible to the players - he should be well removed from the day to day stuff in terms of football on the training ground. In fact, if I were him I would never go the the Training Ground. When Danny Rose grumbles to Jose about playing time and Jose fobs him off, Danny immediately says he will go to the Chairman. The Chairman shouldn't be an option to him unless his relationship with the Manager has completely broken down. Its like going over your boss's head at work. How can the Manager manage if Levy is so available to them?
Don't start me off on matrix management either please!

And we get Hitchen parroting on about how difficult Transfers are as they bring in Bergwijn. Why oh why are our transfers such lengthy and difficult affairs? Do please tell me - although I really do put it down to Levy's inch by tortuous inch negotiating style.

Anyway I believe we owe it to Poch to bring him back and support him to the hilt, if he is biddable. As people on here are now saying, if its anybody else he had better be able to hit the ground running and have a very thick skin!

 

[Bishop]

That's not what Brain of Levy was saying, which is what i responding to.

We've regressed over 3-4 years so obviously the balance has been off

My issues with Levy aren't really related to the last 3 or 4 years. They started 10 years ago with the season following our qualification for the CL. We had finally reached the Holy Grail of Champions League qualification after many years or trying.

To continue our tragectory of progression we desperately needed a striker as the ones we had at the time weren't up to par. Pav and Bent were unfavoured, Defoe had the season of his career but only scored 2 in the second half of the season and we could all see that he was a very streaky striker and unsuited to the way we were now playing.

A striker was absolutely positively our number 1 priority. Yet not for the last time Levy decided in his wisdom not to follow his managers wishes and left the team to stagnant. There was talk of Forlan, Damiao, Cavani and a few other numbers I don't remember now. the names don't matter I would have taken anyone. If you remember our only incomings that season were old shop worn Gallas (cheap) and the last minute reprieve signing of VDV which would not have happened if Real Madrid did not offer him up. So going in to that last day of the window Levy was perfectly happy to not improve the weakest part of the side at all in the very season that we were now going to face our toughest challenge.

This was enough for me to realise that success on the pitch does not interest Levy. It's not his primary concern. Instead a caution and paralysis when the decisive moment occurs is a reoccurring pattern.

So the last few years aren't of any surprise to me. Whenever we have progressed and appear to be ready to take the next stage Levy gets stage fright and stops adding to the squad.

It's as if he believes that our players having gotten us to wherever they have will suffice for the foreseeable future and it never works. We always go into a period of regression directly after progressing.

I've never been one asking to just spunk the money, I think our budgets are workable but just like he expects for his managers to over perform he needs to also over perform in the transfer windows and for me he far from does that.

 

[billyiddo]

@Bishop no offence mate but it sounds like you made your mind up at that point 10 year or so ago and tbh i don't see much use in discussing things with someone entrenched in their position like that.

 

[Bishop]

@Bishop no offence mate but it sounds like you made your mind up at that point 10 year or so ago and tbh i don't see much use in discussing things with someone entrenched in their position like that.

No offence taken at all. We agree on many things but Levy isn't one of them. [emoji28]

I'm not entrenched though, I'm quite open minded but I do see the repeating pattern of behaviour.

 

[Gazza]

I just find it slightly concerning how some fans are blind to how Levy has not backed the team or the manager when it has been crucial for speed and being decisive.

Buying players that the manager doesnt want and have them come in at the last minute kills a month of team building into the season.

Why are we the only club that has to wait until the last minute?

 

[billyiddo]

No offence taken at all. We agree on many things but Levy isn't one of them. [emoji28]

I'm not entrenched though, I'm quite open minded but I do see the repeating pattern of behaviour.

I think making your mind up 10 years ago doesn't really go hand in hand with being open minded - hence the entrenched comment, you had your opinion then and what has happened since has only solidified that.

 

[billyiddo]

I just find it slightly concerning how I think that I am a better football fan than the rest of you are blind to how Levy has not backed the team or the manager when it has been crucial for speed and being decisive.

Buying players that the manager doesnt want and have them come in at the last minute kills a month of team building into the season.

Why are we the only club that has to wait until the last minute?

Who are these people? Every time you or someone else paints this picture of an Enic supporter blind to their failures most people who regularly defend them on here will step forward and say this isn't true...

 

[Raziel]

I’m actually more on the side of it not being the decision to sack Poch which was the mistake, but the decisions leading up to sacking him which created the environment that he had to deal with, that was the mistake.

I think he was special, a real competitive advantage for us, and we blew it. Agreed, that if he comes back, we’ve clearly got something as a club, a platform that he thinks he can work from.

I am very interested in why we let ourselves blow it the first time though. If as @Bedfordspurs says it was spiralling costs, exchange rates working against us etc I will actually understand it. If it was ‘he was distracted’, I probably won’t. Because the buck stops with him, and as much as it was a complex project he’s the one that decides to oversee football matters as well as club business. So if he’s distracted and letting Eriksen’s contract run down, leading to a squad going stale when Poch’s whole reign was built on energy and vibrancy, that’s a bad move from Levy.

So we agree

The answer is probably "all of the above", scope creep on project (some good with improvements, some inevitable corrections, some bad), cost changes with Brexit, delays, etc. Levy had to be involved as this was the club's #1 priority above all (no matter how people will object to that).

I do think @Jeff Brooks is on to something. The club Levy took over was a much smaller enterprise, and it was normal for a main person to take on a lot of the duties, with what Spurs has become, the infrastructure, the addition of non football events, the sponsorship work, etc. it probably is a reflection that Levy is simply trying to do too much, if we go for a DoF with this next manager appointment it will probably be an admitting of that.

 

[Gazza]

Who are these people? Every time you or someone else paints this picture of an Enic supporter blind to their failures most people who regularly defend them on here will step forward and say this isn't true...

Dont make me trawl lol.

 

[DubSpur]

I just find it slightly concerning how I think that I am a better football fan than the rest of you are blind to how Levy has not backed the team or the manager when it has been crucial for speed and being decisive.

Buying players that the manager doesnt want and have them come in at the last minute kills a month of team building into the season.

Why are we the only club that has to wait until the last minute?

Or maybe it's not that they are blind to Levy but admit that they don't know what goes on behind the scenes. There's so many rumor's about what goes on and one half contradicts the other half. All teams have players come in at the last min, if that didn't happen Sky and BT wouldn't have deadline day shows devoted to deals being completed on the last day.

 

[Bishop]

I think making your mind up 10 years ago doesn't really go hand in hand with being open minded - hence the entrenched comment, you had your opinion then and what has happened since has only solidified that.

I'm not entrenched because I'm willing to change, it's just levy keep confirming with his pattern of work.

If he changes I'm not going to lie to myself and claim things are as they've always been. I give credit where it's due and corn when that's due too.

You've never seen me complain about signing Ndombele or Lo Celso, or Janssen or even Sanchez as those are the type of signings that make sense for a club of our positioning.

But not backing the manager when we've finally qualified for the CL or the January we genuinely had a chance at the title or the 3 Windows of no players for Poch. Or letting Eriksen's deal run down. Those things will get corn from me every day.

I care about what I see on the pitch. That's my concern.