Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Baleforce]

The money shouldn't have needed to be earmarked for the stadium project at all. The new stadium should be able to sink or swim all by itself. If it can't swim funded as it's own entity then it probably isn't worth embarking upon. I think Levy's original plan may have actually been exactly as he stated (that its funding would be from an entirely separate stream). It just went horribly over budget. I expect that sort of thing in the public sector but usually in the private sector senior execs have to walk when that sort of thing happens.

So, if the stadium is a long term success and makes loads of money, we shouldn’t put any of that money into the squad, which should sink or swim all by itself?

It’s one football club, it can’t be sliced up, everything effects everything else.

Our problem is that other clubs have more money than us, improving the stadium gets us more money, it was necessary.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So how can we afford to increase the turnover to wages ratio when all the money we make is earmarked for existing projects and our revenue has been hit due to COVID.

My understanding of the inner workings of a football club are effectively those of a 12 year old, I have no real world experience of it.

Can’t disagree with the logic. Funny how it never gets applied when appraising the manager or the players despite none of us having experience playing professional football or managing a premier league side.

 

[Baleforce]

Can’t disagree with the logic. Funny how it never gets applied when appraising the manager or the players despite none of us having experience playing professional football or managing a premier league side.

That’s a fair point, personally I’ve been swayed by all those who say football is a simple game. How can so many people on the internet and live game coverage on TV be wrong?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't know why ETH isn't jumping all over it - I don't even know if he wasn't, i don't know where he sits/sat on our list or who else we're interested in, same as you. I had him on my list as managers I'd like but let's not pretend he's the hottest managerial prospect in the game - he's just one of many and had we not played them in the CL i doubt our fanbase would even have had him touted. I'm personally going to wait and see who the appointment is before worrying about idle gossip and what any of it means regarding our standing as a club.

We challenged for the title in a period where the City & Liverpool teams of the past 2-3 seasons were not performing at the level they have been since, by 'challenging the top 4' i mean to say we'll be one of the teams in and around those top places, not that we're only looking at hoping to finishing 4th. United are second and not uncatchable, in fact i think with proper management in place this season we'd arguably be right up there with them.

Winning the league when a club with Citys backing are at full tilt is a tough ask for anyone but we'll be one of the teams in with a chance the years they aren't at their peak

I don't think he is the hottest managerial prospect in the game either. But I don't think that should make us happy that he's choosing to stay another year at Ajax. The hottest was Nagelsman, and I don't blame us for not getting him. We can all pretend that maybe ETH isn't the one, and there is some masterplan ENIC has for us, but the point is at this level, and the level we aspire to be, there can only be so many 'top' candidates. Then there is a bunch of managers who would be step up, and unproven at the highest level, and I am 90% certain it is from the latter pool that we will be hiring. And I think that is an issue.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

This is what i mean wrt people saying just a little more - we've spent well(lots) over the last couple of years yet still it isn't seen as enough as there's always a little bit more that could have been spent/done. We just needed that extra back up CF or 40m CB on top of the 3rd/4th highest spend in the league to really push on...

I just want to really challenge this. What I am not saying is that we should do a little bit more each time. I was fully on board with the plan to have our wages as they were. I understood the logic that we keep them at a certain level, and we don't break the structure because then everyone would ask. I was onboard with that at the time.

But, this is where I have lost the trust in Levy / ENIC's ability / strategy on the football side. The reason Poch was relatively successful is because he got alignment. For all intents and purposes, for the first 2-3 years of his time at the club, he was backed. We sold who he wanted sold. We bought largely who he wanted (although missed out on players like Berahino). But we made it work, his system made the absolute most out of pliable young players. He then achieved more than anyone thought possible, and this is where I get annoyed.

We have had these moments many times under ENIC. We didn't quite get Moutinho for AVB. We didn't get Jose a new proven centre back, etc etc. And I kind of get it. If you don't think AVB is going to be the person that is going to be with you for the next 10 years, don't do it. Don't break your strategy. ENIC will be here long after AVB. I get that. Similarly, don't break it for Jose, you know he is a short term punch regardless of how he actually does. (Although, another subject, but clearly we broke down under Jose because the CBs were way too error prone and couldn't defend in the way he wanted - better CBs would have meant Jose would have done better).

But...you had Poch. You had a guy here that was perfectly philosophically aligned. He wanted to work with young players. He didn't need the most money. He wanted to bring players through from the academy. He turned down the biggest club in the world. He got us to a CL final and consistent finishes in the top 4. He had us challenging for the title. I think in those circumstances, you have struck gold, and you do what you can to make it work with him. That means maybe assuming that the precise, exact plan that Levy and ENIC had laid out for us on the football side might not be absolutely flawless. Or maybe it means that with a few adjustments, we could actually really go for it from a position of strength. That's why I said a few pages back about making Poch a Partner in ENIC. It obviously wouldn't happen, but it's the kind of person that comes along, adds so much value to your organisation, that you think fudge, maybe we need to challenge our assumptions a bit because he has shown us a better way.

But they didn't go with it. THAT'S what I'm annoyed about. Not a few million more here and there over 20 years, because I understand that adds up. I'm talking about landing one of the best managers in the world, who has built an emotional attachment to this club to the point he will turn down more money and bigger clubs, because he wants to make this work. And it just meant trusting his vision. But we have decided Levy's vision is the way forward. We get these swings where we bring someone in, who's the opposite of the previous guy, to make the other half of the squad happy again, and we just about level out to our rightful place of 6th.

And I just don't trust it. I don't buy that we will get to success quicker under Levy than we would have with Poch still here, and trusting in his plan. Because if we were going to get close, I think Poch would still be here, and I certainly think we could attract a better name than who we've been linked with. It just doesn't add up. I think managers need to be backed, there needs to be alignment. When clubs are aligned from coach to boardroom, you can tell. It looks strategic. The moves make sense. It all looks joined up. For 2-3 years under Poch, we had it perfect. Then we deviated. Ultimately all these coaches are hired because they have methods and a style that works for them. If you don't get Jose top CBs, he's not going to work out. If you don't let Poch build a squad that has a spirit and a connection together, I don't think he works. Every single manager has the things they need. And Levy never fully backs them. He gets some of the way there, and the moment it starts feeling like we might be straying too far from the ENIC plan, he pulls back.

That is why I am ENIC out. We gave up the chance to really make a swing for it after striking gold, to continue with this slow and steady slog. And it's really a slog because ENIC don't want to invest in the way that many other owners do. They don't want to take the risk. It doesn't work for their plan, for their ROI. They have done us a great service in building the stadium and they deserve to be handsomely rewarded for it. But I want success. I want real trophies, and I want it quicker than I think they want it.

 

[Baleforce]

I don't think he is the hottest managerial prospect in the game either. But I don't think that should make us happy that he's choosing to stay another year at Ajax. The hottest was Nagelsman, and I don't blame us for not getting him. We can all pretend that maybe ETH isn't the one, and there is some masterplan ENIC has for us, but the point is at this level, and the level we aspire to be, there can only be so many 'top' candidates. Then there is a bunch of managers who would be step up, and unproven at the highest level, and I am 90% certain it is from the latter pool that we will be hiring. And I think that is an issue.

we don't know he had us a choice

 

[DubSpur]

The money shouldn't have needed to be earmarked for the stadium project at all. The new stadium should be able to sink or swim all by itself. If it can't swim funded as it's own entity then it probably isn't worth embarking upon. I think Levy's original plan may have actually been exactly as he stated (that its funding would be from an entirely separate stream). It just went horribly over budget. I expect that sort of thing in the public sector but usually in the private sector senior execs have to walk when that sort of thing happens.

You can treat me as another 12 year old here... How can the stadium fund itself before it's built?

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think he is the hottest managerial prospect in the game either. But I don't think that should make us happy that he's choosing to stay another year at Ajax. The hottest was Nagelsman, and I don't blame us for not getting him. We can all pretend that maybe ETH isn't the one, and there is some masterplan ENIC has for us, but the point is at this level, and the level we aspire to be, there can only be so many 'top' candidates. Then there is a bunch of managers who would be step up, and unproven at the highest level, and I am 90% certain it is from the latter pool that we will be hiring. And I think that is an issue.

I just want to really challenge this
<snip>
That is why I am ENIC out

Afaia Ajax had an option to extend and took it. But i can't say I'm following our managerial hunt through the media all that much - personally i don't know why people do it to themselves, same with transfer gossip - not really my bag. Nice to muse on the possibilities on the forum, but taking any of it seriously? Nah.

Let's see who we appoint, let's see how they perform - if it's an appointment that i disagree with, i won't be happy and after the Poch sacking and the Mourinho appointment i think they need to get it right, appointing someone like Southgate or Benitez will have me questioning what their vision for success is (for different reasons) - but I'll appreciate that i have been wrong about managers before (Redknapp/AVB) Get it wrong though (as in whoever it is actually fails) and then we are looking at an extended period of wrong decisions off the field that will have taken us backwards on the field, from not back backing Poch, to sacking him, to appointing Jose to whoever the new guy is - that sort of run, although some of it in the testing circumstances of a stadium build, would be enough to have me thinking about whether Levy/ENIC can take us forward on the pitch now we have the clout of a stadium behind us.

It seems you're already at that point - i get it and anyone that has read my take on Pochettino and what went wrong over the last few years will know i put the blame there on the clubs shoulders and i agree mostly with what you have said about that above however i also appreciate that between the stadium build and more importantly the delay on moving in and extended stay at Wembley we were balancing some pretty big plates at that time, one of them a multi-hundred million pound plate that could bury us if it smashed.

If you look at what went wrong during Pochettinos time it can mostly be traced back to that near two year period we played at Wembley and especially that final 3/4s of a year where noone knew one week to the next where we were going to be playing. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the year that there were no signings.

For me bad decisions were made in this period, that were then compounded when we made the manager change - but ultimately, as stated above, the root are the decisions/mistakes made when trying to deliver the stadium build off the pitch, i think that's just about the bricktiest timing of anything Spurs related i can think of - our best team in decades coming at a point in time that we had our focus elsewhere.

No stadium issue going on in the background and we likely invest in Pochettinos vision better than we did - is essentially what I'm getting at and considering it's rare situation for a club to work through I'm not particularly worried about the club mismanaging certain things at that juncture, (or at least I'm willing to give them a pass) nor am i expecting us to be in that sort of situation again so I'm not worried about those mistakes being repeated. I think that's fair.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So, if the stadium is a long term success and makes loads of money, we shouldn’t put any of that money into the squad, which should sink or swim all by itself?

It’s one football club, it can’t be sliced up, everything effects everything else.

Our problem is that other clubs have more money than us, improving the stadium gets us more money, it was necessary.

What?.... I suspect you get what I am saying and are being deliberately obtuse but I’ll respond anyway....

The stadium was built for the football team. Profits made as a result of higher attendances, ticket prices and extra events should be reinvested back in the football team (as well as paying the debt and capital of the loans). The stadium should also have been viable as an investment in its own right.... i.e. the cost of the build should’ve been able to be met by a separate funding stream, that funding would then be paid back by the additional profit that the stadium generated over the course of the next 20+ years. This was the model that Levy himself explained upon the outset of the build.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think he is the hottest managerial prospect in the game either. But I don't think that should make us happy that he's choosing to stay another year at Ajax. The hottest was Nagelsman, and I don't blame us for not getting him. We can all pretend that maybe ETH isn't the one, and there is some masterplan ENIC has for us, but the point is at this level, and the level we aspire to be, there can only be so many 'top' candidates. Then there is a bunch of managers who would be step up, and unproven at the highest level, and I am 90% certain it is from the latter pool that we will be hiring. And I think that is an issue.

Or we can pretend that ETH was the one standout candidate after Nagelsmann and that he rejected us because of Levy.

Didn't really see the line of enthusiasm about ETH before the extension was signed. Thought he was one of several potential candidates, with strenths and potential downsides like all our realistic targets.

Let's see where it ends...

 

[Baleforce]

What?.... I suspect you get what I am saying and are being deliberately obtuse but I’ll respond anyway....

The stadium was built for the football team. Profits made as a result of higher attendances, ticket prices and extra events should be reinvested back in the football team (as well as paying the debt). The stadium should also have been viable as an investment in its own right.... i.e. the cost of the build should’ve been able to be met by a separate funding stream, that funding would then be paid back by the additional profit that the stadium generated over the course of the next 20+ years. This was the model that Levy himself explained upon the outset of the build.

Why does it have to be a separate funding stream?

 

[billyiddo]

This was the model that Levy himself explained upon the outset of the build.

Do you have any links handy to what was actually said regarding this?

 

[Finney Is Back]

You can treat me as another 12 year old here... How can the stadium fund itself before it's built?

Debt, naming rights, future sold corporate packages, debentures, etc.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Do you have any links handy to what was said regarding this?

Levy definitely said one wouldn’t affect the other
But in reality the contract for the build was let on a PM basis so the costs were always unknown
It made sense to have money in the bank to cover the costs

 

[billyiddo]

Levy definitely said one wouldn’t affect the other
But in reality the contract for the build was let on a PM basis so the costs were always unknown
It made sense to have money in the bank to cover the costs

I know he said something about it that everyone refers back to as an iron clad agreement that transfer spending wasn't to suffer - but it'd be nice to see what was said, when it was said and who it was said to after all this time

 

[Finney Is Back]

I know he said something about it that everyone refers back to as an iron clad agreement that transfer spending wasn't to suffer - but it'd be nice to see what was said, when it was said and who it was said to after all this time

Google is your friend I’d imagine.....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I know he said something about it that everyone refers back to as an iron clad agreement that transfer spending wasn't to suffer - but it'd be nice to see what was said, when it was said and who it was said to after all this time

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/cart...debt-refinanced-daniel-levy-transfer-business

One article with comments from levy’s board feedback

 

[billyiddo]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/cart...debt-refinanced-daniel-levy-transfer-business

One article with comments from levy’s board feedback

That's post stadium build, what Finney is refering to is what Levy said prior to the build

 

[Baleforce]

Debt, naming rights, future sold corporate packages, debentures, etc.

again, you make it sound really simple, there are loads of clubs who would benefit from a new stadium, why are they not doing this?

 

[Raziel]

again, you make it sound really simple, there are loads of clubs who would benefit from a new stadium, why are they not doing this?

No one is, the only other major stadium builds in PL recently

- Arsenal, made huge mistakes, bad interest rates, not really designed for non football events, corporate facilities behind us, knocked them out of contention
- West Ham, got a fudging freebie (with lots of questions)

We have done an amazing job with the stadium, the issue was simply timing/outside scenarios

- Poch unfortunately burnt out (and so did team) at just the wrong time (and I really don't believe buying one or two more players would have changed that)
- Covid has fudged everyone but money doping clubs, with full stadium revenue and non football events, perhaps we could have got Skrinar (as example) and what difference that could have made even to this season (we have lost 20 points from winning position, one top class CB could have saved what % of that? half of that would put us in 3rd)

This is all the same conversation in a bricky loop

- For years, Levy/ENIC was here for a quick flip
- Then the stadium planning/build was a red herring that never was going to happen (yes, this was a conversation on this board for years)
- Then it was the net spend conversation, i.e. we were never going to spend more than we earn
- Now it's we won't take the new stadium revenue (when it comes online) and apply it to players, or won't spend for managers/whatever (despite it being shown when Levy believes he has to do something, e.g. to let go Poch/Jose, he does it regardless of cost)

It comes back to the same thing

- People actually thinking RA at Chelsea is a good model? wtf, all the debt is still on the club (money they could never pay back) and they exist purely on his mood/goodwill
- Same as above, it is the sugar daddy want.

Levy is playing the long game, always has, in the long run it's the right decision

- In two years with full revenue, non-football events and potential NFL collaboration, we will have a different conversation, problem is no one wants to wait.