Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Bedfordspurs]

I haven't missed the debt at all..... I have factored it in. With zero debt we're probably worth a minimum of £2 billion.

That number does highlight why no one will buy us and the problem with football valuations

 

[Spur of the moment]

We had the 5th highest income in the PL when ENIC took over, along with a net positive cash position. The finances were actually in very good shape.

In the last 15 years or so we've had two managers who did fantastically for the club and consistently over achieved compared to their budget.... Both were sacked.

Both were sacked, yes but why? You cannot just leave it at that without context.

By dropping his trousers for the England job Redknapp had signalled his lack of commitment to the club just at a time when we were on the verge of major success. Similarly Pochettino let it be known, again at a super-critical time just as we faced the biggest final in our history, that he was less than 100% committed going forward. In each instance the performance of the team fell off a cliff in relative terms. So please, let's not pretend their sacking was exclusively down to the heartless butchery of greedy owners.

 

[Raziel]

You couldn't get anywhere near buying Barcelona for that (or Real Madrid). Firstly because the valuation is far too low and secondly because they are both owned by their members as opposed to being owned by an individual or corporation.

So how much do you think THFC is worth then?

Mate, Barca has been teetering on huge debt for multiple years, £1.2B +taking on their existing debt, yes I think you would buy them.

I think you are confusing brand value for what something will actually sell for. Yes, Tottenham is "valued" at somewhere in the £2B+ range, is anyone going to pay that? = no

Why not
- Market is uncertain, no one knows when full revenue resumes
- The money outlay in Spurs would have to be followed by another money outlay to make the squad truly competitive (£300-500M?)
- Alternatives, even if you disagree with me re Barca, for £2B you could certainly buy Arsenal, new stadium, more recent success, London and arguably bigger brand globally. That isn't even going down the route of buying a Leeds/Everton/West Ham for a fraction of that and pump the money into squad.

To be honest, I only see two routes for Spurs
- We continue, Stadium kicks in, non sporting events, etc, probably another 2 years of stumbling before the revenue kicks in, we control debts and with right choices get ourselves back into top 4 by leveraging the additional revenue advantage over others.
- Your option, ENIC doesn't sell controlling interest but sells a part of club under idea of utilizing cash input as team investment to accelerate short term progress.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that. More interesting, is what do you think Spurs should be doing going forward? Easy to criticise harder to create.

10 years ago, developing the stadium was probably the one thing we'd have isolated as the key to Spurs developing. It puts us into a different echelon. We've also developed the training facilities. Levy is not in charge day to day of what happens on the pitch, and with some vastly wealthier clubs it is no surprise we have not been able to surpass these sides on a regular basis. What is it you are looking for? And rather than look back, what is it that needs to happen next going forward?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that. More interesting, is what do you think Spurs should be doing going forward? Easy to criticise harder to create.

10 years ago, developing the stadium was probably the one thing we'd have isolated as the key to Spurs developing. It puts us into a different echelon. We've also developed the training facilities. Levy is not in charge day to day of what happens on the pitch, and with some vastly wealthier clubs it is no surprise we have not been able to surpass these sides on a regular basis. What is it you are looking for? And rather than look back, what is it that needs to happen next going forward?

Sugar daddy plain and simple.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that

Its not easy if one can't be bothered to understand/comprehend/take on board all sides of the situation(s). Or at least do their best too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that. More interesting, is what do you think Spurs should be doing going forward? Easy to criticise harder to create.

10 years ago, developing the stadium was probably the one thing we'd have isolated as the key to Spurs developing. It puts us into a different echelon. We've also developed the training facilities. Levy is not in charge day to day of what happens on the pitch, and with some vastly wealthier clubs it is no surprise we have not been able to surpass these sides on a regular basis. What is it you are looking for? And rather than look back, what is it that needs to happen next going forward?

I agree with a lot of this tbh but I would add I’ve always found it strange that the vast proportion of the credit for being where we are today goes to Levy/ENIC, but they escape any criticism at all for us not being able to win trophies. I wouldn’t use the word blame as that’s unfair, but criticism or asking questions is not unreasonable IMO. They’d get most of the credit if we had won everything but look at the net spend over the last 5 years and that tells me that we haven’t given the managers the appropriate tools to do their jobs. If you are a manager and in your company and you lose key members of your team all at once or in quick succession and don’t replace their experience then it doesn’t matter how good a manager you are, you’re kind of screwed.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I agree with a lot of this tbh but I would add I’ve always found it strange that the vast proportion of the credit for being where we are today goes to Levy/ENIC, but they escape any criticism at all for us not being able to win trophies. I wouldn’t use the word blame as that’s unfair, but criticism or asking questions is not unreasonable IMO. They’d get most of the credit if we had won everything but look at the net spend over the last 5 years and that tells me that we haven’t given the managers the appropriate tools to do their jobs. If you are a manager and in your company and you lose key members of your team all at once or in quick succession and don’t replace their experience then it doesn’t matter how good a manager you are, you’re kind of screwed.

There is no doubt we performed above our spending for some time. We were building a stadium, a massive spend for a company of Spurs' size. But something so integral to the business, it is worth it. So there were times we didn't spend and we performed on the pitch. What it highlights is that throwing money at the team is not the way to go either. Throwing money at the right players for the team is where Levy/Enic might improve however; rather than going after value. But that is a natural progression from being a side that needs to find value in the transfer market, to a club that can outspend 80% of the league. Thing is we are not there yet. We have debt and no revenue from the stadium as things stand.

Yes we should critique Levy on transfers. Moving from a position of seeking value in the transfer market, to one where we isolate and secure the best players to address the team's need is the next stage, I would agree.

 

[billyiddo]

I agree with a lot of this tbh but I would add I’ve always found it strange that the vast proportion of the credit for being where we are today goes to Levy/ENIC, but they escape any criticism at all for us not being able to win trophies. I wouldn’t use the word blame as that’s unfair, but criticism or asking questions is not unreasonable IMO. They’d get most of the credit if we had won everything but look at the net spend over the last 5 years and that tells me that we haven’t given the managers the appropriate tools to do their jobs. If you are a manager and in your company and you lose key members of your team all at once or in quick succession and don’t replace their experience then it doesn’t matter how good a manager you are, you’re kind of screwed.

I think the owners get credit for the overall medium/long term direction the club takes and managers get credit for the short to medium term on field results (if they last long enough to be classed medium term...) - at the moment we are suffering through poor squad management going back several years, which is a medium to long term issue = Levy's responsibility, in the last year the team has been mismanaged on the pitch/training field, short term issue = Mourinho's responsibility.
On the flip side we recently had 4 consecutive years in the CL and were runners up in the league and CL - Pochettino gets the praise for the on field progress and Levy/Enic get the praise for medium term planning that went in to building the squad over several years and making the right manager appointment. Seems the right kind of balance to me.

Wrt to giving the right tools - always had you down as being critical of Pochettino and Redknapp for not winning trophies with the teams they had, are you now saying they didn't have the required tools to win trophies after all?

The reason I'm not critical of the club over our trophy record is the same reason I'm not critical of the managers for it either - we have not been a club that spends to the level that those who regularly win do. Since Levy arrived at Tottenham there have been 54 domestic trophies on offer, 45 of them won by the OG Sky top 4 + City the other 9 were solitary wins. Remove the League Cup and only 3 of 36 trophies were won by non OG + City clubs. So until we have the financial clout that those clubs do, afaic, there is no blame to be had regarding our lack of trophies as we just aren't a rich enough club to expect a share of the spoils. The stadium will put us at that level though, I dunno what effect COVID will have but in the 2 years since moving in we were 4th highest net spenders in the league, which is a huge leap forward from where we were in the 5+ years previous and if our wage budget increases to a similar level then we will be on a level that we can start to aim set the bar at that level.

 

[metalgear]

So it's 160 mil over 4 years if you count the 2 drought years.
Effectively it was much less as significant amounts went to players that would not be ready soon.

Predictably the knives are out for Levy, but, going by transfermarkt.com, the Board's investment in the squad over the last two seasons amounts to a net outlay of over £160m.

GLC, Ndombele, Sessegnon, Clarke, Gedson and Bergwyn were all relative newcomers when Jose took over in November 2019. Of those, only Clarke and Gedson were greeted with anything other than outright approval. Arrivals during JM's tenure included Hart, Doherty, Reguilon, Hojbjerg, Bale, Vinicius and Rodon. With the possible exception of Hart, all were hailed on here as excellent buys.

Okay we did have to endure two seasons of famine prior to that, but the £1.2bn investment in the new stadium may have been something of a distraction.

At the end of the day, Mourinho was brought in as the man most likely to deliver a trophy. He was given plenty of backing by the board, the only real negative being he would have preferred to invest in a CB rather than Bale. Against that there was huge excitement at the arrival of Bale, it was considered something of a coup.

So, all things considered, I'm not yet ready to buy into this latest narrative that Enic are exclusively preoccupied with putting profit before progress.

Sent from my SM-T865 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think the owners get credit for the overall medium/long term direction the club takes and managers get credit for the short to medium term on field results (if they last long enough to be classed medium term...) - at the moment we are suffering through poor squad management going back several years, which is a medium to long term issue = Levy's responsibility, in the last year the team has been mismanaged on the pitch/training field, short term issue = Mourinho's responsibility.
On the flip side we recently had 4 consecutive years in the CL and were runners up in the league and CL - Pochettino gets the praise for the on field progress and Levy/Enic get the praise for medium term planning that went in to building the squad over several years and making the right manager appointment. Seems the right kind of balance to me.

Wrt to giving the right tools - always had you down as being critical of Pochettino and Redknapp for not winning trophies with the teams they had, are you now saying they didn't have the required tools to win trophies after all?

The reason I'm not critical of the club over our trophy record is the same reason I'm not critical of the managers for it either - we have not been a club that spends to the level that those who regularly win do. Since Levy arrived at Tottenham there have been 54 domestic trophies on offer, 45 of them won by the OG Sky top 4 + City the other 9 were solitary wins. Remove the League Cup and only 3 of 36 trophies were won by non OG + City clubs. So until we have the financial clout that those clubs do, afaic, there is no blame to be had regarding our lack of trophies as we just aren't a rich enough club to expect a share of the spoils. The stadium will put us at that level though, I dunno what effect COVID will have but in the 2 years since moving in we were 4th highest net spenders in the league, which is a huge leap forward from where we were in the 5+ years previous and if our wage budget increases to a similar level then we will be on a level that we can start to aim set the bar at that level.

I definitely believe there were times during both Poch’s and Redknapp’s tenure where they had a squad capable of winning trophies. Not at the start and nor the end of Poch’s reign. But towards the end of the Poch days, the squad needed reinforcements for a year or so beforehand and I honestly feel we got to the CL in spite of making no signings. Also, I think it’s possible to say we built a great squad that got us into great positions but did well with what we spent rather than levy backing the manager fully, whereas teams like Liverpool could spend £150m on two players which elevated them to the next level which I’m not sure Levy would ever be comfortable doing, rightly or wrongly.

 

[billyiddo]

I definitely believe there were times during both Poch’s and Redknapp’s tenure where they had a squad capable of winning trophies. Not at the start and nor the end of Poch’s reign. But towards the end of the Poch days, the squad needed reinforcements for a year or so beforehand and I honestly feel we got to the CL in spite of making no signings. Also, I think it’s possible to say we built a great squad that got us into great positions but did well with what we spent rather than levy backing the manager fully, whereas teams like Liverpool could spend £150m on two players which elevated them to the next level which I’m not sure Levy would ever be comfortable doing, rightly or wrongly.

So Redknapp & Pochettino were both given the tools to win trophies then, doesn't that kind of contradict your post earlier?

Wrt to your latter point, teams like Liverpool weren't building a stadium when they needed a couple of signings to push on...

 

[parklane1]

Before Levy tookover, Spurs had played in 16 cup finals and won 14 from 1900 - 1999.

Since Levy tookover we have played in 6 cup finals and won 1.

We have now failed to score, let alone win, in our past 4 cup finals.

Spurs's "sexy" cup final record under Levy:

P6 W1 L5 F3 A8

I non-figuratively don't care any more, yes he is better than Sugar, no doubt, but f@cking ell it is nothing but humiliation trophy wise. This our most barren trophy period since 1921-1950, some 70 years ago.

I non-figuratively defended him to hills, even during the 2003-04, 2008 collapse, Redknapp sacking and 2013/14 debacles. But now sick of the sight of him.

Sorry but that seems to be,

 

[parklane1]

Cough! Stadium? Then fecked by a pandemic. Give the guy a break!

Too much sense in that for some.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mate, Barca has been teetering on huge debt for multiple years, £1.2B +taking on their existing debt, yes I think you would buy them.

I think you are confusing brand value for what something will actually sell for. Yes, Tottenham is "valued" at somewhere in the £2B+ range, is anyone going to pay that? = no

Why not
- Market is uncertain, no one knows when full revenue resumes
- The money outlay in Spurs would have to be followed by another money outlay to make the squad truly competitive (£300-500M?)
- Alternatives, even if you disagree with me re Barca, for £2B you could certainly buy Arsenal, new stadium, more recent success, London and arguably bigger brand globally. That isn't even going down the route of buying a Leeds/Everton/West Ham for a fraction of that and pump the money into squad.

To be honest, I only see two routes for Spurs
- We continue, Stadium kicks in, non sporting events, etc, probably another 2 years of stumbling before the revenue kicks in, we control debts and with right choices get ourselves back into top 4 by leveraging the additional revenue advantage over others.
- Your option, ENIC doesn't sell controlling interest but sells a part of club under idea of utilizing cash input as team investment to accelerate short term progress.

You cannot buy Barcelona out. They are owned by their members. If you somehow put together a deal of £1.2 billion to try to somehow purchase them from their members you wouldn't get anything other than laughed at by those very same members.

For what it's worth here are the valuations from Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/soccer-valuations/list/

I would say that their valuations are based on a lot more credibility than yours and mine (but especially yours ).

Oh and if you think that Barcelona are teetering on huge debt then lord knows what you think about our debt (as it is a lot higher than Barcelona's despite our turnover being only about 60% of their turnover).

 

[Raziel]

You cannot buy Barcelona out. They are owned by their members. If you somehow put together a deal of £1.2 billion to try to somehow purchase them from their members you wouldn't get anything other than laughed at by those very same members.

For what it's worth here are the valuations from Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/soccer-valuations/list/

I would say that their valuations are based on a lot more credibility than yours and mine (but especially yours ).

Oh and if you think that Barcelona are teetering on huge debt then lord knows what you think about our debt (as it is a lot higher than Barcelona's despite our turnover being only about 60% of their turnover).

Mate .. all debt is not equal, honestly .. first thing in search engine (https://www.insider.com/fc-barcelona-financial-results-lionel-messi-loss-debt-2021-1). Spurs has long term low interest debt, and Barca's debt is 1.4B (way higher than ours). It's like arguing Credit Card debt is the same risk as a mortgage ..

Yes you can buy Barca, either the "owners" (members isn't some magic thing) manage the debt or it goes to the banks who can sell to anyone

Back to original point, valuation means nothing without precedent and buyers
- What football clubs have been bought for in excess of £2B and how do they/that compare to Spurs?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Mate .. all debt is not equal, honestly .. first thing in search engine (https://www.insider.com/fc-barcelona-financial-results-lionel-messi-loss-debt-2021-1). Spurs has long term low interest debt, and Barca's debt is 1.4B (way higher than ours). It's like arguing Credit Card debt is the same risk as a mortgage ..

Yes you can buy Barca, either the "owners" (members isn't some magic thing) manage the debt or it goes to the banks who can sell to anyone

Back to original point, valuation means nothing without precedent and buyers
- What football clubs have been bought for in excess of £2B and how do they/that compare to Spurs?

Barcelona have tried to “fudge” their debt as a big chunk of it is on failed signings

 

[Finney Is Back]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that. More interesting, is what do you think Spurs should be doing going forward? Easy to criticise harder to create.

10 years ago, developing the stadium was probably the one thing we'd have isolated as the key to Spurs developing. It puts us into a different echelon. We've also developed the training facilities. Levy is not in charge day to day of what happens on the pitch, and with some vastly wealthier clubs it is no surprise we have not been able to surpass these sides on a regular basis. What is it you are looking for? And rather than look back, what is it that needs to happen next going forward?

For me (assuming ENIC don't want to sell up to another set of owners)....

1. Make a capital injection - £200 million right now could secure our future for years. Lots of clubs will be extremely hard up this summer and it will be a buyers market. While that capital injection would be a short term pain in the wallet for the owners it could well end up being a medium term gain as doing this and then continually just investing our profits from then on should see us remain in the CL (especially considering the coefficient rule that is coming in in 2024) and thus boost the value of the club. If ENIC cannot fund that capital injection (they should be able to do so simply by ENIC borrowing money secured against its stake in THFC) then let somebody else make that sort of injection for a share of ownership.

2. Go out and get Campos as DoF. Give him as much control on transfers as he desires. He has proven that he is a brilliant operator at Lille. Get him in and let him operate.

3. Set aside a separate moderate budget to sign talented English youngsters from lower league clubs. Reinvest any profits made from signing players from this route into this budget.

4. Choose the new manager in conjunction with Campos. Give Campos the main voice in this selection.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

For me (assuming ENIC don't want to sell up to another set of owners)....

1. Make a capital injection - £200 million right now could secure our future for years. Lots of clubs will be extremely hard up this summer and it will be a buyers market. While that capital injection would be a short term pain in the wallet for the owners it could well end up being a medium term gain as doing this and then continually just investing our profits from then on should see us remain in the CL (especially considering the coefficient rule that is coming in in 2024) and thus boost the value of the club. If ENIC cannot fund that capital injection (they should be able to do so simply by ENIC borrowing money secured against its stake in THFC then let somebody else make that sort of injection for a share of ownership.

2. Go out and get Campos as DoF. Give him as much control on transfers as he desires. He has proven that he is a brilliant operator at Lille. Get him in and let him operate.

3. Set aside a separate moderate budget to sign talented English youngsters from lower league clubs. Reinvest any profits made from signing players from this route into this budget.

4. Choose the new manager in conjunction with Campos. Give Campos the main voice in this selection.

Agree with all of these other than ... your assumption that enic don’t want to sell. I think they do personally but don’t think there is a buyer out there
The value is disproportionately high for a buyer IMO
The likliesty option wound be an owner who wants an NFL combo but that would mean the football side possible playing second fiddle to the NFL side. I’d hate that considering the club and stadium was built for football

 

[thfcsteff]

@Finney Is Back its easy to look back and say what could have been done better. Any fool can do that. More interesting, is what do you think Spurs should be doing going forward? Easy to criticise harder to create.

10 years ago, developing the stadium was probably the one thing we'd have isolated as the key to Spurs developing. It puts us into a different echelon. We've also developed the training facilities. Levy is not in charge day to day of what happens on the pitch, and with some vastly wealthier clubs it is no surprise we have not been able to surpass these sides on a regular basis. What is it you are looking for? And rather than look back, what is it that needs to happen next going forward?

Evidence recently suggest that is not the case.

If Levy could remember that, he'd be the perfect chairman. As it is, his fatal flaw is not giving the final word to the experts he hires, and making deals/appts based on HIS theory of football progression versus what, say, a DOF might think.

We need a progressive set up, progressive manager, but more than anything we need Levy to not just hire a real DoF, but to let him work unfettered.