AVB's one upfront system doomed for failure at WHL

[milo]

He has been unlucky with injuries, to be fair. I'm certain we'd be much better off yesterday with Sandro for the entire game, and I think both Dembele and Parker would be preferred over Thudd in the middle. A midfield trio of Sandro - Parker - Dembele would have made a big difference yesterday, IMO.

I'm not so sure, I've never been impressed when Sandro and Parker have played together, they tend to get in each others way.

 

[onlyme]

I've never been impressed when Sandro and Parker have played together, they tend to get in each others way.

Agree. Have noticed that recently Sandro has started to do the Parker pirouette. Baffled as to why so many like this combo.

 

[onlyme]

But boy do I wish we had someone like Aguero or Javi Martinez to throw on today. Sometimes it's not the formation, but the players, sometimes it's the formation, sometimes it's the manager, sometimes it's just a bad day all around.

Agree.

 

[NWND]

The one upfront system isn't the problem it's the lack of drive and creativity in midfield. We look 10 times better with Dembele in midfield it's no coincidence looking at these results:

Without Dembele starting:

Saudi Sportswashing Machine Away - lost 2-1
WBA Home - drew 1-1
Norwich Home - drew 1-1 only drew because Dembele came on as sub and we looked much better
Chelsea Home - lost 4-2
Southampton Away - won 2-1
Wigan Home - lost 1-0

P 6 W 1 D 2 L 3

With Dembele from the start:

Reading away - won 3-1
QPR Home - won 2-1
Man U away - won 3-2
Aston Villa home - won 2-0

P 4 W 4 D 0 L 0

I also think the board should have done more to land one of AVBs top creative targets in the summer. We were linked with Willian, Gaston Ramirez, Hernanes, Dzagoev, Isco and the one he really wanted was Moutinho. Seems we moved very late for Moutinho and didn't give ourselves enough time to get it done. I think AVB sees the problems with the squad but I think he like many managers before him have been let down by the board

 

[Rossi22]

Agree. Have noticed that recently Sandro has started to do the Parker pirouette. Baffled as to why so many like this combo.

Because we generally don't lose when using it. If everyone was fit then for City and Arsenal away I'd have Sandro, Parker and Dembele as our midfield all day long.

 

[DHSF]

Because we generally don't lose when using it. If everyone was fit then for City and Arsenal away I'd have Sandro, Parker and Dembele as our midfield all day long.

Im not being facetious or anything but that right there is the problem. Some want to not lose. I want to go out there to win. I think AVB goes with the mentality 'lets not lose' rather than 'lets go out there and win it'.

 

[onlyme]

Because we generally don't lose when using it. If everyone was fit then for City and Arsenal away I'd have Sandro, Parker and Dembele as our midfield all day long.

I agree with those who say we lacked creativity against Wigan and one thing you are guaranteed with Sandro and Parker is no creativity.

 

[Jurgen the German]

The same one upfront that Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Barca, Madrid, Milan, Inter, Juve, Bayern etc. all use at home?

Only having 4 in midfield is doomed to failure, and has been all this century.

Bring in Ade as the forward, bring in some ballplayers in midfield (Carroll and Falque will do till Dembele returns) and we'll see performances and results.

Didn't seem to hinder United when they won three titles in a row and won the CL and also reached another two finals.

 

[Rossi22]

I agree with those who say we lacked creativity against Wigan and one thing you are guaranteed with Sandro and Parker is no creativity.

I wouldn't start them both at home to Wigan, one thing you can guarantee though if they did is that Wigan wouldn't have waltzed through our midfield at will. Sandro and Parker gives us a solid base for our 4 attacking players and full backs to get forward and create, it's not their fault if they fail to do that.

 

[SUIYHA]

Last season when we played 4-4-1-1 then the two front men were Van Der Vaart and Adebayor. Van Der Vaart offered creativity, guile and outstanding technical ability. Dempsey and Sigurdsson do not. Well...Sig does a little, but nowhere near to the same extent. Adebayor offered strength, an aerial threat, pace, highly unpredictable movement and excellent link up play. Defoe, whilst his holding up of the ball has improved, does not offer that.

Defoe and Sigurdsson are both good players in their own right. But they do not offer the unpredictability, physical presence, creativity and technical skill that Van Der Vaart and Adebayor's combo offered. We cannot therefore play that formation and expect the same results.

At home to bottom half teams = 4-4-2, simple as.

 

[mudshark]

Regardless of formation, I think our build-up play is far too ponderous and lacking intelligent movement. We may be trying to draw the other side out, but if they don't bite, we need to be much more creative. Too often, we seem to play people into isolation as well. Suddenly, they're surrounded by three or four opposition players, can't readily find a teammate with a pass, and we end up losing possession again. Players like Lennon and Bale can use their pace to get out of a hole, but then half the time there's still nobody who has moved to receive the ball from them when they do. It seems to me our passing game has been quite poor in general. There appear to be too many individuals unable to move the ball quickly or accurately enough, and who are too easy to dispossess to boot.

 

[Danners9]

1 up front against teams we can blow away is going to fail. In games against better teams it is the way to go.

The opportunity yesterday was Sandro going off, it didn't need another midfielder to come on. Adebayor coming on and using Dempsey to link would have been fine, Dempsey drops deep anyway. Otherwise it was leaving Defoe isolated. Bale and Lennon weren't joining up with the play as they usually do.

Wigan offered a threat because Spurs were sloppy, and then desperate.

 

[indianspur]

if AVB wants to stubbornly persist with his favoured formation of one up front, maybe its time to put Bale in behind Ade

...................Adebayor

....Townsend.....Bale.......Lennon

Bale is technically superior than Dempsey and Sig, more explosive, quicker, at the moment he seems to want to drift everywhere so let him play off the main striker.

 

[Rossi22]

Can you imagine the outrage by Spurs fans if he moved their beloved Bale off the left wing, Jesus.

GARETH BALE!
HE PLAYS ON THE LEFT!!!!!!!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[indianspur]

Can you imagine the outrage by Spurs fans if he moved their beloved Bale off the left wing, Jesus.

GARETH BALE!
HE PLAYS ON THE LEFT!!!!!!!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

he very rarely sticks to that left wing anymore. It seems Gareth Bale plays wherever he wants. Its all about Gareth Bale

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I have to say, 1 up front isn't doomed for failure at WHL, that's a ridiculous thing to say. What is probably right though, is that to play Defoe as the one upfront against a lower half Premier League team, or even a European team that would consider a point against us a good result, probably is doomed. It has been from the start.

It's like we are playing with ten men. We can't get the ball into the forward players, and Dempsey and Siggy both look rubbish as a result. I think Siggy in particular is absolutely class and it's sad to see people say he needs to be eased in, isn't ready for first team football etc. Both of these players have been playing behind Defoe, and it's been lucky for them if Defoe manages to lay off a pass to them, after it's been drilled into his feet and usually snuffed out. Against Villa when Ade came on, it was for about 15 minutes but the improvement in Siggy was massive, and all it took was Ade laying off a pass to Siggy in space on the edge of the box, allowing him to trick his way in and fashion a good opportunity. I'm convinced the same would happen for Dempsey too.

I used to be really annoyed at AVB and in a way I still am for persisting with it. It's clear that against lower half teams at home, it simply isn't going to work. Away, we look classy. And that's no surprise. But this is one of the things Harry had right, in that it is about the players. No matter how much AVB writes on his notepad mid game, it isn't going to change the fact that we can't build up play in the opponents half if they are going to stifle us and we can't even get our striker on the ball. He must know it too.

But that then makes me think that there's nothing much he can do about it. Ade has been unfit/injured/sick and therefore can't play. And he also wants to run a system of meritocracy with the players all knowing they have a chance. So he's given Defoe his chance, who scores, particularly in the away games and therefore it's harder to just drop him. So he's had to play Defoe because he's had no other choice. He probably knows full well it doesn't work against lower half sides, and he knows full well Siggy and Dempsey will suffer from it as a result, although Bale and Lennon may look pretty good away from home. But he can't publicly say that it won't work, and he can't really drop Defoe for Dempsey when Defoe is playing well and scoring when the opposition suits him and when Dempsey isn't an out and out striker anyway.

Really I think AVB's hands are tied in that there's nothing else he could have done in order to achieve what he wants. He could play a straight 4-4-2, but he is also trying to acclimatise the club to a 4-3-3 system and doesn't want to lose time in that progression. So it's tough. He's had to play Defoe. Even though he probably knows it isn't going to work against certain teams. It's also frustrating because other clubs seem to be able to play a small striker upfront alone and do well, but I guess someone like Aguero is stronger even though shorter and are more natural 'drop deepers' rather than pure natural poachers which Defoe is.

What needs to happen really is that Defoe needs to be sold in Jan because his good performances have pushed the price up, and the reason we kept him and had him sign a new contract was because we couldn't get maximum value for him after a season on the bench almost last term. And then we get someone more able to play upfront by themselves. That would answer the question of why we had him sign a new contract in the first place, although I am surprised AVB accepted that. He must know it doesn't work. Levy must know. The coaches must know. All the players must even know because it's so obvious. There's simply no way the Norwich and Wigan performances can happen and people don't notice the massive change between that and the first half at Old Trafford, Southampton or all of the Reading game. Everyone must know.

We just have to get to the next transfer window and hopefully continue the transition of the squad. And go 4-4-2 in the meantime to lower half teams!

 

[glorygloryeze]

I have to say, 1 up front isn't doomed for failure at WHL, that's a ridiculous thing to say. What is probably right though, is that to play Defoe as the one upfront against a lower half Premier League team, or even a European team that would consider a point against us a good result, probably is doomed. It has been from the start.

It's like we are playing with ten men. We can't get the ball into the forward players, and Dempsey and Siggy both look rubbish as a result. I think Siggy in particular is absolutely class and it's sad to see people say he needs to be eased in, isn't ready for first team football etc. Both of these players have been playing behind Defoe, and it's been lucky for them if Defoe manages to lay off a pass to them, after it's been drilled into his feet and usually snuffed out. Against Villa when Ade came on, it was for about 15 minutes but the improvement in Siggy was massive, and all it took was Ade laying off a pass to Siggy in space on the edge of the box, allowing him to trick his way in and fashion a good opportunity. I'm convinced the same would happen for Dempsey too.

I used to be really annoyed at AVB and in a way I still am for persisting with it. It's clear that against lower half teams at home, it simply isn't going to work. Away, we look classy. And that's no surprise. But this is one of the things Harry had right, in that it is about the players. No matter how much AVB writes on his notepad mid game, it isn't going to change the fact that we can't build up play in the opponents half if they are going to stifle us and we can't even get our striker on the ball. He must know it too.

But that then makes me think that there's nothing much he can do about it. Ade has been unfit/injured/sick and therefore can't play. And he also wants to run a system of meritocracy with the players all knowing they have a chance. So he's given Defoe his chance, who scores, particularly in the away games and therefore it's harder to just drop him. So he's had to play Defoe because he's had no other choice. He probably knows full well it doesn't work against lower half sides, and he knows full well Siggy and Dempsey will suffer from it as a result, although Bale and Lennon may look pretty good away from home. But he can't publicly say that it won't work, and he can't really drop Defoe for Dempsey when Defoe is playing well and scoring when the opposition suits him and when Dempsey isn't an out and out striker anyway.

Really I think AVB's hands are tied in that there's nothing else he could have done in order to achieve what he wants. He could play a straight 4-4-2, but he is also trying to acclimatise the club to a 4-3-3 system and doesn't want to lose time in that progression. So it's tough. He's had to play Defoe. Even though he probably knows it isn't going to work against certain teams. It's also frustrating because other clubs seem to be able to play a small striker upfront alone and do well, but I guess someone like Aguero is stronger even though shorter and are more natural 'drop deepers' rather than pure natural poachers which Defoe is.

What needs to happen really is that Defoe needs to be sold in Jan because his good performances have pushed the price up, and the reason we kept him and had him sign a new contract was because we couldn't get maximum value for him after a season on the bench almost last term. And then we get someone more able to play upfront by themselves. That would answer the question of why we had him sign a new contract in the first place, although I am surprised AVB accepted that. He must know it doesn't work. Levy must know. The coaches must know. All the players must even know because it's so obvious. There's simply no way the Norwich and Wigan performances can happen and people don't notice the massive change between that and the first half at Old Trafford, Southampton or all of the Reading game. Everyone must know.

We just have to get to the next transfer window and hopefully continue the transition of the squad. And go 4-4-2 in the meantime to lower half teams!

Gutterboy, is that you???

Lol, you make some thought-provoking points...i'll sit back and wait for the debate to ignite like a Guy Fawkes sparkler...

 

[indianspur]

AVB wont sell Defoe. He'll sell Ade before he sells Defoe imo

I think AVB wants a finisher to play the lone striker role. Right now his option is Defoe, but im sure he'd like a Damiao, or a Lewandowski, or a Huntelaar too

 

[Rossi22]

They'd be equally ineffective if we can't get the ball to them, ok perhaps not equally, but almost.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Gutterboy, is that you???

Lol, you make some thought-provoking points...i'll sit back and wait for the debate to ignite like a Guy Fawkes sparkler...

Thing is I really don't hate Defoe whatsoever. I think he is a great player and in the right system or against the right opponents he is devastatingly effective. You can say that about a lot of players though, but if we are looking to build towards a certain way of playing, I just can't see how Defoe will fit into it. We can't just wait for the right opponents, who are just so happening to give us enough space to let Defoe play on that particular game.

We are just in an awkward state as a team, and it's really good that we are 4th despite it. Our away form has been great though and that's no surprise. We've got players who are good on the break and I think they are playing with more intelligence that allows them to exploit the space left for them. But at home, it really is depressing, like watching a different team. Norwich and Wigan were utterly terrible performances. I started a thread after the Norwich game saying we were so bad that it was quite heartening, because it was so obviously a problem that just needed to be fixed, rather than Norwich absolutely dominating us. I still feel the same after the Wigan game to be honest, even though they were better at creating clearer chances - but that was probably just because of their system.

It's just strange though that the quotes coming from AVB and the players seem to cite the fact that it was just a bad day, rather than noticing the very obvious pattern with other games against teams of a similar standing. Maybe the players really just weren't concentrating, and maybe AVB is convinced that system can work, even with Defoe as the striker, and it just takes a heck of a lot of concentration and intelligent movement to pull a team around to create the space for us to play. And maybe that's why we hear it was a bad day. But at the end of the day, it's just an obvious pattern that has happened twice at home and twice in Europe to lesser teams as well.

It's an awkward state. We have players more suited to playing at a quicker tempo. But we are looking to progress towards a slower one. So we still look good when away, and we can play the quick tempo because we have the space, but at home I just don't think our players can do it. Against Wigan it was made worse because of the system they played. It wasn't only that we couldn't get the ball into the front players, we could barely get the ball into the deep midfielders. The amount of times we knocked the ball around defence, passed the ball back to Friedel, who then had no options because Wigan's front 3 had stifled all of them, and then forced him to try and chip the ball forward...it was ridiculous. Friedel can't do that, it's not his game. So he'd either kick the ball out of play or the pass would reach a player that already had another Wigan guy baring down on them so they couldn't do anything productive with it. I don't think it was a motivation problem with the players, I just think that tactically we were completely stifled.

But that's what happens when you play an unsuited goalkeeper in the name of smooth transition (even though he's already admitted he would be happy being 3rd choice) and that's what happens when you persist with a guy that's never looked capable of bringing others into play his whole career as the loan striker. How on earth are we going to play a possession based game when that is happening? Tactically, in theory it might work. Perhaps it even should work. But we are clearly more suited to a quicker tempo game, releasing Defoe into space quickly to fire a shot away, and getting the ball quickly to Bale and Lennon to exploit any space against a full back. To set us up to slow down and play more patiently, we just don't have the players.

And ironically, I'm still completely behind AVB. I just feel he needs more time to shape the squad how he wants. Last season Harry tried to have us playing the way that suited us, and it was clear we did need a bit more intelligence against teams that simply sat back against us and gave us no space. We could then dominate possession without looking threatening at all. And I think we have that extra intelligence away from home. We just need to find a way of performing well at home too. I think Defoe and Ade until January before making some changes may be the way.