Antonin Kinsky

[Muttley]

As he should. The latter two both need loans to champ or div 1 level IMO.

Dorrington definitely does. 13 mins in 9 or 10 games in the match day squad should tell him to get himself away on loan for a while. Ange's judgment has come under scrutiny over Bergval, Spence, Reggie, Austin etc this season and Alfie can't win this round. Just like Donley couldn't last season when it was blatantly obviously he could have been used more. Ange doesn't make junior subs. He'd rather only use 3 or 4 seniors, rather than the full compliment. If he does, it is the exception versus the norm. He only really has 2 or 3 go-to youngsters, and fortunately Bergval looks like he's becoming one as well.

 

[Muttley]

There is a difference between the former pair and the latter two. Gray and Bergvall have both got a lot of first team minutes relative to their ages at the clubs they played for before joining us. To an extent they were already proven, someone gave them a chance and they took it.

Lankshear and Dorrington are both highly rated by the fans who have watched them in youth football but neither are actually proven and there is a lot of hope involved in the rating they've been getting from the fans. Fans are not the best judge of youth players if we are honest, they tend to get a tad overrated when they are playing underage football.

We have to accept that Ange having looked at them in training over a elongated period doesn't think either of Lankshear or Dorrington are ready to play regularly for us. There is of course the chance they never will be.

Ange hasn't been the best judge either though. He has been left with egg on his face when those players he's ignored have got their chance and proven their value. Ange has definitely made this squad smaller than it needs to be.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Could well be right. Really pleased with his performance yesterday and looked promising, but I wouldn't judge too much in isolation. Remember Tanganga looking great and being MOTM against Liverpool on debut. He is now plying his trade at Millwall.....

I think one telling thing is that he's not even USA's GK either, despite his competition playing for global giants like Raith Rovers and Colombus Crew

 

[SteveAWOL]

As he should. The latter two both need loans to champ or div 1 level IMO.

Agreed.

There is a difference between the former pair and the latter two. Gray and Bergvall have both got a lot of first team minutes relative to their ages at the clubs they played for before joining us. To an extent they were already proven, someone gave them a chance and they took it.

Lankshear and Dorrington are both highly rated by the fans who have watched them in youth football but neither are actually proven and there is a lot of hope involved in the rating they've been getting from the fans. Fans are not the best judge of youth players if we are honest, they tend to get a tad overrated when they are playing underage football.

We have to accept that Ange having looked at them in training over an elongated period doesn't think either of Lankshear or Dorrington are ready to play regularly for us. There is of course the chance they never will be.

Pochettino’s policy of keeping our youngsters at the club so they learn by training with first team has proven to be no substitute for them playing competitive matches.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Agreed.



Pochettino’s policy of keeping our youngsters at the club so they learn by training with first team has proven to be no substitute for them playing competitive matches.

I dont think it was a bad policy per se. He only tended to keep 3, to make up squad places 23, 24 and 25. The wildcards after you've got your 2 players for every position. E.g it was Whiteman, KWP and Skipp in his final season. I think that's better than 3 big wage journeymen taking those spots.

Ange has actually done exactly the same this year - Dorrington, Moore and Lankshear are the 23, 24 and 25. We've obviously also got Devine, Donely, Philips and Veliz out. And maybe next season we swap some of them round or promote younger players into the 23-25 spots. But i quite like the 22 + 3 squad building model

 

[braineclipse]

Ange hasn't been the best judge either though. He has been left with egg on his face when those players he's ignored have got their chance and proven their value. Ange has definitely made this squad smaller than it needs to be.

Quite a few on here thought Bergvall would need a January loan when he was playing and doing all that well in the EL not that long ago...

Of course the conclusion can be that Ange has been left with egg on his face. The alternative conclusion is that Ange has done a good job integrating these younger players. Not asked too much of them too soon. Given them time to settle in and get up to speed before asking more of them.

What conclusion you reach isn't fact based, we can't actually know how these players would have done if given more serious game time earlier.

The one I would question the most is Spence. A bit older, more experienced. But still a fairly young player new to the system and new to the PL taking some time before he's trusted by the manager really isn't a huge issue.

Gray and Bergvall to me have been managed really well.

It seems fairly obvious that Ange rates all of these players.

 

[braineclipse]

This guy is younger than Austin so I'm presuming that means we don't really rate Austin?

Probably means Austin is rated as good enough to be third choice. And probably that's fine.

I'm assuming signing Kinsky now means we really rate him. Both as a short term upgrade on Forster and longer term as someone talented enough to challenge Vicario at some point.

 

[braineclipse]

As he should. The latter two both need loans to champ or div 1 level IMO.

Fully agreed.

I think people underestimate Gray, Bergvall and perhaps also Moore by putting them in the same conversation as Lankshear and Dorrington.

No doubts Lankshear and Dorrington are talented players. I don't think a limit should be set on what they can do in the future. But in terms of how far along they are in their development compared to Gray and Bergvall they're not at that point yet.

 

[Muttley]

Quite a few on here thought Bergvall would need a January loan when he was playing and doing all that well in the EL not that long ago...

Of course the conclusion can be that Ange has been left with egg on his face. The alternative conclusion is that Ange has done a good job integrating these younger players. Not asked too much of them too soon. Given them time to settle in and get up to speed before asking more of them.

What conclusion you reach isn't fact based, we can't actually know how these players would have done if given more serious game time earlier.

The one I would question the most is Spence. A bit older, more experienced. But still a fairly young player new to the system and new to the PL taking some time before he's trusted by the manager really isn't a huge issue.

Gray and Bergvall to me have been managed really well.

It seems fairly obvious that Ange rates all of these players.

Yeah, but this is a forum. It is always going to be skewed to opinions over fact. If it was only a fact based forum we'd have about half the content because, as fans, we only get to see the external fan piece. In reality it's a combo of some good work in the background, but also oversight and judgment issues. It doesn't have to be one over the other.

It doesn't matter though. The squad is feeling bigger with Austin (+Kinsky), Spence, Reggie and Bergval. I just hope Ange now leverages his full squad because rotation is key when you play 60 games. Perhaps a couple more signings as well.

lol - the naivety in me is also looking forward to see the return of Richi.

 

[Daisuk]

You're assuming ange is telling the truth in press conferences, why would he?
Why tip everyone off to your business.

The nature of press conferences are a bit weird to me. I get why the press love it, of course, they need to churn out some flimflam all the time to stay relevant, but it's not worth a thing for our coach or the club. It must be annoying to be interviewed five times a week by duds asking the same bloody questions over and over.

 

[Bishop]

Ange hasn't been the best judge either though. He has been left with egg on his face when those players he's ignored have got their chance and proven their value. Ange has definitely made this squad smaller than it needs to be.

I agree with regards to players we have already seen like Reguilion, Spence and even GLC last season. We know how they can perform in adult football, we've seen it with our own eyes. With Lankshear and more so Dorrington we really don't have much to go on beyond tiny glimpses and a lot of hope.

I'm not saying Ange is correct, sometimes the only way for a young player to prove themselves is to be given the chance I'm just saying we have to accept his viewpoint as it stands.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Dorrington definitely does. 13 mins in 9 or 10 games in the match day squad should tell him to get himself away on loan for a while. Ange's judgment has come under scrutiny over Bergval, Spence, Reggie, Austin etc this season and Alfie can't win this round. Just like Donley couldn't last season when it was blatantly obviously he could have been used more. Ange doesn't make junior subs. He'd rather only use 3 or 4 seniors, rather than the full compliment. If he does, it is the exception versus the norm. He only really has 2 or 3 go-to youngsters, and fortunately Bergval looks like he's becoming one as well.

Donkey took a third of the season to start performing well at league 1 level.

Bergval makes basic mistakes every game that put us in trouble.

There is a really fine line when it comes to youngsters. I think Bergval is just about the right side of it, probably because he had already played proper men’s football. Our young players who haven’t all need to prove they can do so away from Spurs before they get a chance to do the same at Spurs IMO.

 

[RunTMC]

Just leave the S out and say it was a mitake.

And don’t forget the A for his initial

 

[braineclipse]

Donkey took a third of the season to start performing well at league 1 level.

Bergval makes basic mistakes every game that put us in trouble.

There is a really fine line when it comes to youngsters. I think Bergval is just about the right side of it, probably because he had already played proper men’s football. Our young players who haven’t all need to prove they can do so away from Spurs before they get a chance to do the same at Spurs IMO.

I agree in most cases. Moore may prove the exception to that, we'll see.

Harsh on Donley to nickname him Donkey at this point BTW

 

[Muttley]

Donkey took a third of the season to start performing well at league 1 level.

Would Donley have taken a third of the season, if his manager had made the right choices? His manager had 6 loanees and could only put 5 in his squad from memory. I bet he realises what a donut he was for omitting the 19 year old now though.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I agree in most cases. Moore may prove the exception to that, we'll see.

Harsh on Donley to nickname him Donkey at this point BTW

Oops…. Damn auto correct!

I think Donley has huge potential, is perhaps even more guaranteed to make it at PL level than Moore IMO.

I think Moore is an exception as with the way he plays I’d fear a bit for him coming up against league 1 players who will want to just kick him out of the game. An overseas loan for him could be great though. If we fail to make Europe next season then I think that’s what will happen with him.

 

[braineclipse]

Oops…. Damn auto correct!

I think Donley has huge potential, is perhaps even more guaranteed to make it at PL level than Moore IMO.

I think Moore is an exception as with the way he plays I’d fear a bit for him coming up against league 1 players who will want to just kick him out of the game. An overseas loan for him could be great though. If we fail to make Europe next season then I think that’s what will happen with him.

Europe or not is definitely a factor.

Moore already got a PL start this season before illness stopped his integration that at that time looked to be going in a good direction. Will depend on what happens for the rest of the season I guess. Just thinking that he may be the exception to what you said that I otherwise agree with.

I wouldn't be shocked if Moore does enough in the second half of the season to stay here next year.

Let's hope Kinsky is a great addition to what is looking a real special bunch of young players we have here now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Would Donley have taken a third of the season, if his manager had made the right choices? His manager had 6 loanees and could only put 5 in his squad from memory. I bet he realises what a donut he was for omitting the 19 year old now though.

He played some games and wasn’t at the races.

I’m not sure those who didn’t play football understand the massive difference between age group and men’s football. As a young player I played academy and reserve football at what is now PL level and coped fine, even coped well I’d say, I then went and played semi pro football, thought I’d be able to run the show and even at that low level it was so incredibly different and so much more difficult, the pace and physicality so much more intense, so many more decisions you have to take, in much less time, have to be the right ones or you get punished, even get your body shape wrong receiving the ball and you’ll get clattered in a ‘fair’ tackle. It took me many games to adjust, you’re just used to having more time, it is ingrained in you and takes a while to kind of train out of your system. At first you compensate by rushing and make bad decisions and touches but gradually you learn to be quicker but not to rush, be ready to receive the ball earlier, anticipate better, know where you’re probably going to go/pass to before you receive the ball, etc.

Equally I always laugh to myself when people cream themselves over a young player doing well in a pre-season game and say the player needs to be in the first team, it’s just not a decent barometer at all. Semi pro football is a big step up from age group football, league 2 a big step up from that, there is the same step up at each level. It’s not a mystery why so few academy players fail to make a decent living playing football.

 

[braineclipse]

He played some games and wasn’t at the races.

I’m not sure those who didn’t play football understand the massive difference between age group and men’s football. As a young player I played academy and reserve football at what is now PL level and coped fine, even coped well I’d say, I then went and played semi pro football, thought I’d be able to run the show and even at that low level it was so incredibly different and so much more difficult, the pace and physicality so much more intense, so many more decisions you have to take, in much less time, have to be the right ones or you get punished, even get your body shape wrong receiving the ball and you’ll get clattered in a ‘fair’ tackle. It took me many games to adjust, you’re just used to having more time, it is ingrained in you and takes a while to kind of train out of your system. At first you compensate by rushing and make bad decisions and touches but gradually you learn to be quicker but not to rush, be ready to receive the ball earlier, anticipate better, know where you’re probably going to go/pass to before you receive the ball, etc.

Equally I always laugh to myself when people cream themselves over a young player doing well in a pre-season game and say the player needs to be in the first team, it’s just not a decent barometer at all. Semi pro football is a big step up from age group football, league 2 a big step up from that, there is the same step up at each level. It’s not a mystery why so few academy players fail to make a decent living playing football.

Great post.

Just to continue our previous conversation on exceptions I think there are some exceptions to that. Some players that just get that level even with limited experience. I think Moore may be one of those.

 

[braineclipse]

Anyway, back to Kinsky.

Straight in for the Liverpool game is the expectation? Baptism of fire, play Ange ball against one of the best teams around, do some step overs and hopefully stop some shots?