Ange’s system / formation

[braineclipse]

That couldn't be less Ange. He wants bodies deep in the midfield and attackers up high and stretching the pitch. Wingbacks will have the opposite effect.

Didn't we all just come out of 1.5 laborious seasons of 352/343?

Agreed.

Having had the benefit of a full season playing a style consistently. Having had the benefit of players learning that style. Having had the benefit of figuring out who works in what roles and to what extent making for what hopefully is a solid plan for the summer.

This is not the time to change the system.

I do know that it's possible to change the formation and play the same system. I think we change a bit in and between games looking more 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. We change our pressing plan. But a change to a back 3/5 would almost certainly involve a significant change of both style of play and player roles.

 

[Raziel]

Agreed.

Having had the benefit of a full season playing a style consistently. Having had the benefit of players learning that style. Having had the benefit of figuring out who works in what roles and to what extent making for what hopefully is a solid plan for the summer.

This is not the time to change the system.

I do know that it's possible to change the formation and play the same system. I think we change a bit in and between games looking more 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. We change our pressing plan. But a change to a back 3/5 would almost certainly involve a significant change of both style of play and player roles.

I also think this season, Ange made short term tradeoffs for a long term perspective

To me, more game time for PEH & Lo Celso, less game time for Deki, VDV at LB earlier were all things that I think would have probably netted us a few more points. But some of those players clearly had no long term future with us vs. others .. was it the right call? next season will answer that.

 

[metalgear]

I wasnt too impressed wuth angeball in year 1. Was good until the Chelsea game and we were poor after christmas.

Its alright to want to play attacking football but a good defence is needed if winning things is important. I think defending set pieces was poor, also defending the far post in open play is weak.

for all the attacking we committed to, the injuries kept piling up, indicating some failures in the broader support system - either fitness or rotation was lacking.

Then towards the end our attack was slow and labourious, opting to allow the opponents defence to organize themselves instead of taking more risks with fast ditect football.

But its year 1 and i will cut ange some slack.i wont be as forgiving in year 2. I think a key measure would be a significant improvement in goal differrence next season

Objectively, there is no evidence that angeball can succeed at the PL and CL level.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Objectively, there is no evidence that angeball can succeed at the PL and CL level.

The first 10 games of the season?.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I wasnt too impressed wuth angeball in year 1. Was good until the Chelsea game and we were poor after christmas.

Its alright to want to play attacking football but a good defence is needed if winning things is important. I think defending set pieces was poor, also defending the far post in open play is weak.

for all the attacking we committed to, the injuries kept piling up, indicating some failures in the broader support system - either fitness or rotation was lacking.

Then towards the end our attack was slow and labourious, opting to allow the opponents defence to organize themselves instead of taking more risks with fast ditect football.

But its year 1 and i will cut ange some slack.i wont be as forgiving in year 2. I think a key measure would be a significant improvement in goal differrence next season

Objectively, there is no evidence that angeball can succeed at the PL and CL level.

Surely a lack of players may have an issue.
You can’t judge style in year 1 or you may end up rating Brighton managers

 

[tommysvr]

I wasnt too impressed wuth angeball in year 1. Was good until the Chelsea game and we were poor after christmas.

Its alright to want to play attacking football but a good defence is needed if winning things is important. I think defending set pieces was poor, also defending the far post in open play is weak.

for all the attacking we committed to, the injuries kept piling up, indicating some failures in the broader support system - either fitness or rotation was lacking.

Then towards the end our attack was slow and labourious, opting to allow the opponents defence to organize themselves instead of taking more risks with fast ditect football.

But its year 1 and i will cut ange some slack.i wont be as forgiving in year 2. I think a key measure would be a significant improvement in goal differrence next season

Objectively, there is no evidence that angeball can succeed at the PL and CL level.

Strange post overall. Did you not see the injuries league wide? It wasn’t just a Spurs thing.

 

[metalgear]

The first 10 games of the season?.

i always thought it was unsustainable and there were weaknesses waiting to be exploited.

Surely a lack of players may have an issue.
You can’t judge style in year 1 or you may end up rating Brighton managers

true that we can get better players that fit the style...however Ange's game is more about outscoring the competition than a controlled game where the opponent's attack is snuffed out. so this is very subjective i know, but instinctively, i think angeball with the right players could help us to a record goal difference in a season but still lose the league. its far easier to win the league with narrow victories and clean sheets. but yeah angeball is exciting and i support it.

Strange post overall. Did you not see the injuries league wide? It wasn’t just a Spurs thing.

i tend to think that teams that play high octane football end up with more injuries. it could be a deliberate strategy or just haphazard reactionary football. Angeball throws too much forward for my comfort and so when we get dispossessed or countered, a lot of scrambling happens.

i prefer football where there's more control in both attack and defence - like that of Emirates Marketing Project and arsenal. generally to me less panic more deliberate movements = more physical efficiency and less injuries. with 38 games a season and europe you'd need to conserve energy to maintain fitness and produce consistent results to win things. arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project were the two most consistent teams last season with the least injuries.

but i'm no pro coach or player so just take my thougts with a pinch of salt. no need to get upset if you disagree

 

[tommysvr]

i tend to think that teams that play high octane football end up with more injuries. it could be a deliberate strategy or just haphazard reactionary football. Angeball throws too much forward for my comfort and so when we get dispossessed or countered, a lot of scrambling happens.

i prefer football where there's more control in both attack and defence - like that of Emirates Marketing Project and arsenal. generally to me less panic more deliberate movements = more physical efficiency and less injuries. with 38 games a season and europe you'd need to conserve energy to maintain fitness and produce consistent results to win things. arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project were the two most consistent teams last season with the least injuries.

but i'm no pro coach or player so just take my thougts with a pinch of salt. no need to get upset if you disagree

Who doesn’t prefer football like that? There’s a massive problem with your comparison though: it’s taken those teams many years to get there. Why do you expect Ange to do it in 1?

 

[Bishop]

The first 10 games of the season?.

I don't agree with the premise that the system can't work, but 10 games is not a big enough sample to suggest that it can. Over the decades there have been many teams that had a 10 game spell of excellent form and results. Ours just especially stood out as it was at the very start of the season as opposed to lost somewhere in the middle of the campaign.

Regarding the system itself, I think we've seen evidence with City that the general idea works. It does though need a high calibre of player to truly succeed. If we continue to bring in the calibre of player then it will work, the willingness and ability to identify and acquire such players is the key part.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't agree with the premise that the system can't work, but 10 games is not a big enough sample to suggest that it can. Over the decades there have been many teams that had a 10 game spell of excellent form and results. Ours just especially stood out as it was at the very start of the season as opposed to lost somewhere in the middle of the campaign.

Regarding the system itself, I think we've seen evidence with City that the general idea works. It does though need a high calibre of player and time to truly succeed. If we continue to bring in the calibre of player then it will work, the willingness and ability to identify and acquire such players is the key part.

You forgot to add the words “and time” after high calibre okayed, so I’ve added it for you

And on city…l their player identification has improved over time too. This was a club and coach who went through 4 keepers in a couple of years to find one … how many strikers too!!!

But with time they now only add small amounts that cost a fortune every summer

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I don't agree with the premise that the system can't work, but 10 games is not a big enough sample to suggest that it can. Over the decades there have been many teams that had a 10 game spell of excellent form and results. Ours just especially stood out as it was at the very start of the season as opposed to lost somewhere in the middle of the campaign.

Regarding the system itself, I think we've seen evidence with City that the general idea works. It does though need a high calibre of player to truly succeed. If we continue to bring in the calibre of player then it will work, the willingness and ability to identify and acquire such players is the key part.

'Objectively, there is no evidence '

Objectively those 10 games are evidence...that is all my post was contesting.

Play like that, rack up points like that, you go very close to winning the league.

 

[Bishop]

You forgot to add the words “and time” after high calibre okayed, so I’ve added it for you

And on city…l their player identification has improved over time too. This was a club and coach who went through 4 keepers in a couple of years to find one … how many strikers too!!!

But with time they now only add small amounts that cost a fortune every summer

Oh yeah definitely time, I thought that was clear with what I said. I think some fans forget what a bad state we've been in over the last few years, the Kane and Son partnership really papered over many cracks.

It's going to take time, courage, great decision making, persistence and a degree of luck to get to where we want to get to. I believe in Ange's, system and I think it can with the right ingredients achieve everything he wants and failing that it builds a good structure for whoever follows.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Oh yeah definitely time, I thought that was clear with what I said. I think some fans forget what a bad state we've been in over the last few years, the Kane and Son partnership really papered over many cracks.

It's going to take time, courage, great decision making, persistence and a degree of luck to get to where we want to get to. I believe in Ange's, system and I think it can with the right ingredients achieve everything he wants and failing that it builds a good structure for whoever follows.

Yep
100% tight
Luck is key too but it’s uncontrollable
Was chatting to an arsenal supporting mate and he is broken now after last season and I was like why? The lack of injuries they had can’t happen again (his words)

 

[Baleforce]

Yep
100% tight
Luck is key too but it’s uncontrollable
Was chatting to an arsenal supporting mate and he is broken now after last season and I was like why? The lack of injuries they had can’t happen again (his words)

The lack of injuries isn’t necessarily all positive, some forced rotation may have ensured form was more consistent over the season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The lack of injuries isn’t necessarily all positive, some forced rotation may have ensured form was more consistent over the season.

Depends on the team of course
Varies for every side

 

[braineclipse]

'Objectively, there is no evidence '

Objectively those 10 games are evidence...that is all my post was contesting.

Play like that, rack up points like that, you go very close to winning the league.

Fully agreed.

Objectively the entire season is evidence too. With a squad lacking in real depth Angeball was good enough to come 5th. That's about as much as could realistically be expected in his first season. That is some evidence that the system works in the PL. If the system didn't work in the PL I would have expected the team to perform worse than realistic expectations.

Subjectively I think there's more evidence. There were some really rather disappointing performances. But even in most of the games in our more disappointing period we could see what a team playing Ange ball can do in the PL. We weren't able to find that consistency, but in most games there definitely were periods were it clicked and we were an absolute pain to play against.

If Ange can get a squad together that can do that with constency I see no reason to think Angeball won't work in the PL. But as others have said, takes time, definitely more than two transfer windows.

 

[metalgear]

Who doesn’t prefer football like that? There’s a massive problem with your comparison though: it’s taken those teams many years to get there. Why do you expect Ange to do it in 1?

obviously i don't expect everything to be perfect in year 1.

we're probably different - i preferred mourinho and conte's year 1 with us and agreed with the way they had set up with the players we had and the lack of convincing transfer activity.

I think many new managers underestimate the pace and exertions of the epl. especially at the end of the season with all kinds of travels and competitions and ange is no exception. the lack of suitable players certainly didn't help, but there's also the option of tactical changes. Then again maybe ange is still instilling a new mindset, so I will give him a pass.

looking forward to 24/25 and Europe, its clear that ange coming in solo without his own staff doesn't help - it will be a new challenge for him next season especially on the administration and logistics side of things. also, hopefully someone is looking hard at reducing the number of injuries we had last season i.e. physio, sports science etc.

 

[braineclipse]

obviously i don't expect everything to be perfect in year 1.

we're probably different - i preferred mourinho and conte's year 1 with us and agreed with the way they had set up with the players we had and the lack of convincing transfer activity.

I think many new managers underestimate the pace and exertions of the epl. especially at the end of the season with all kinds of travels and competitions and ange is no exception. the lack of suitable players certainly didn't help, but there's also the option of tactical changes. Then again maybe ange is still instilling a new mindset, so I will give him a pass.

looking forward to 24/25 and Europe, its clear that ange coming in solo without his own staff doesn't help - it will be a new challenge for him next season especially on the administration and logistics side of things. also, hopefully someone is looking hard at reducing the number of injuries we had last season i.e. physio, sports science etc.

Has been said (even by Ange perhaps) that the adjustment to the physical work needed in his system takes time and that there will often be more injuries in the first season.

I think the lack of suitable players is an important factor. And I do think the knowledge that some of the players here would be moved on was a factor as well.

Him not bringing "his own" staff seems to be the way he likes to work. Don't think we can know if that impacted things one way or the other.

 

[Jordinho]

With both Maddison and Kulusevski playing as AMs, are we seeing a tweak in how we play? The FBs get up in midfield, but stay a little wider, and form a kind of 2-3-2-3 formation. We have Son, Maddison and Udogie playing little triangles on the left and hopefully we'll see more of that on the right as well. This also leaves room in the middle for Solanke dropping a little deeper (or very deep as this image shows) or the deeper lying playmaker (in this case Bentancur) moving forward.

 

[Raziel]

With both Maddison and Kulusevski playing as AMs, are we seeing a tweak in how we play? The FBs get up in midfield, but stay a little wider, and form a kind of 2-3-2-3 formation. We have Son, Maddison and Udogie playing little triangles on the left and hopefully we'll see more of that on the right as well. This also leaves room in the middle for Solanke dropping a little deeper (or very deep as this image shows) or the deeper lying playmaker (in this case Bentancur) moving forward.

Ange makes tweaks all the time, it's absolute nonsense to say we play the same all the time.

The "same" is we play out the back, we play a possession based style, we attack all the time based on a model where players move into open space if there, create overloads.

Outside of that, it's way less strict than most believe.