Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

imo you're deluded if you don't think Dembele isn't deployed as a DM. That's his starting position, that's where he spends a large chunk of the game, that's where he played for a large part of last season.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

just because he roams and just because he's not a natural DM it doesn't mean he's not been played in that role.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

just because he roams and just because he's not a natural DM it doesn't mean he's not been played in that role.

Just because he roams he's not a DM? Just because LLoris wears gloves and doesn't leave his box (much) doesn't mean he's not a DM :-k

If by DM you mean "the guy with the most responsibility to tackle the opposition forward of the defence" then yes, that's what he's doing. But a DM role is far more limited than what he's been doing.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Just because he roams he's not a DM? Just because LLoris wears gloves and doesn't leave his box (much) doesn't mean he's not a DM :-k

If by DM you mean "the guy with the most responsibility to tackle the opposition forward of the defence" then yes, that's what he's doing. But a DM role is far more limited than what he's been doing.

No a dm's role CAN BE far more limited (ie Lucas, Sandro, Makelele) but there are other DM's that take up the exact same starting position but are expected to do more (ie thread balls, get forward, dictate play). What position did Carrick play for us in your opinion?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

No a dm's role CAN BE far more limited (ie Lucas, Sandro, Makelele) but there are other DM's that take up the exact same starting position but are expected to do more (ie thread balls, get forward, dictate play). What position did Carrick play for us in your opinion?

Deep-lying playmaker - that's absolutely not the role Dembele is playing as it requires the ability to pass.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

No a dm's role CAN BE far more limited (ie Lucas, Sandro, Makelele) but there are other DM's that take up the exact same starting position but are expected to do more (ie thread balls, get forward, dictate play). What position did Carrick play for us in your opinion?

I was about to agree with Scara but then I was also about to agree with you...I think it's just a question of what you are defining a DM as, as opposed to one of you being right or wrong. You both have a point.

I wouldn't say Carrick was a DM, I'd say he was a deep lying playmaker, or holding midfielder. Sandro is a DM. Capoue is a DM. Dembele is a strange one, a bit of a hybrid in that he wins the ball but is encouraged to be a ball carrier too. But if we were to arbitrariliy say that the '2' in the 4-2-3-1 we have been playing are DMs, then we could say he is one. But then we may have to say Paulinho is one too, and I don't think he is really.

So then it could be argued that we sometimes don't play with a DM even though we do technically play with a double pivot. Complicated stuff.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I was about to agree with Scara but then I was also about to agree with you...I think it's just a question of what you are defining a DM as, as opposed to one of you being right or wrong. You both have a point.

I wouldn't say Carrick was a DM, I'd say he was a deep lying playmaker, or holding midfielder. Sandro is a DM. Capoue is a DM. Dembele is a strange one, a bit of a hybrid in that he wins the ball but is encouraged to be a ball carrier too. But if we were to arbitrariliy say that the '2' in the 4-2-3-1 we have been playing are DMs, then we could say he is one. But then we may have to say Paulinho is one too, and I don't think he is really.

So then it could be argued that we sometimes don't play with a DM even though we do technically play with a double pivot. Complicated stuff.

My understanding of the double pivot is that it was always played with either 2 DMs or 1 DM and 1 deep-lying playmaker?

There may be examples where that's not the case, but not that I know of.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Carrick himself stated he played Defensive midfield for us? all this "deep lying playmaker" talk is just a fancy name created by football fans. When you ask the footballer that plays as a 'deep lying playmaker' what position he plays on the pitch he will answer Defensive midfield. Same with Xabi Alonso and others.

'Deep lying playmakers' are defensive midfielders with the ability and freedom to express themselves and pick a pass. Some are given even more freedom and are allowed to bomb forward but if your starting position is in the area of the grass in between centre backs and midfielders and if that's where you spend the majority of the game then you're a DM.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

http://performance.fourfourtwo.com/technique/the-holding-role-discipline-is-key

Here's Carrick talking about it himself...his primary job is to "protect the back 4"...a defensive role designed for a defensive midfielder...he elaborates further so watch it for yourself (there's another interview where he specifically states he played DM for spurs and his job was to make sure we "didn't concede")...I'll look for it.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Carrick himself stated he played Defensive midfield for us? all this "deep lying playmaker" talk is just a fancy name created by football fans. When you ask the footballer that plays as a 'deep lying playmaker' what position he plays on the pitch he will answer Defensive midfield. Same with Xabi Alonso and others.

'Deep lying playmakers' are defensive midfielders with the ability and freedom to express themselves and pick a pass. Some are given even more freedom and are allowed to bomb forward but if your starting position is in the area of the grass in between centre backs and midfielders and if that's where you spend the majority of the game then you're a DM.

It's obviously a question of terminology. Most are talking of roles in a team, not limiting the description to the starting position.

If your definitions do not separate between the roles of Xabi Alonso and Gennaro Gattuso then to me those definitions are not particularly descriptive. Whoever came up with the term deep lying playmaker, however fancy it may seem, it's a lot more descriptive and thus (to me at least) more useful.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Carrick himself stated he played Defensive midfield for us? all this "deep lying playmaker" talk is just a fancy name created by football fans. When you ask the footballer that plays as a 'deep lying playmaker' what position he plays on the pitch he will answer Defensive midfield. Same with Xabi Alonso and others.

'Deep lying playmakers' are defensive midfielders with the ability and freedom to express themselves and pick a pass. Some are given even more freedom and are allowed to bomb forward but if your starting position is in the area of the grass in between centre backs and midfielders and if that's where you spend the majority of the game then you're a DM.

I disagree with most of that - to me a defensive midfielder is a midfielder whose role is primarily to defend.

Now I thought the whole point of you insisting that we were playing 2 DMs was a criticism of AVB suggesting that he's too cautious and defensive. If that's not the case then I apologise and I've been wasting your time.

If that is the case, then how does that fit with your assertion that a DM can be pretty much anything as long as the line up on paper/screen has them positioned in that 30-40yd area between our box and the midfield line?

**EDIT**

And if that is the case, whose line up are you using to find out where their starting positions are? AVB's? Freund's? Sky's? I'm pretty sure I know which of the three you have access to. After all, you can see from the links above that neither Dembele nor Paulinho stay in that position much.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

My understanding of the double pivot is that it was always played with either 2 DMs or 1 DM and 1 deep-lying playmaker?

There may be examples where that's not the case, but not that I know of.

I'd agree, but if it's Dembele Paulinho then I think that can be kind of a double pivot definition. Sandro/Dembele for example fits it too IMO.

But I do see what you are saying, Dembele is a slightly different sort of player and he does float a bit. He's very modern and I don't think there are many actual like him around at the moment, a player who is a ball carrier through the centre rather than a passer. You can't class him as a deep lying play maker but not a pure DM either. He's a bit like Wheelchair, but Wheelchair is a better passer.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

http://performance.fourfourtwo.com/technique/the-holding-role-discipline-is-key

Here's Carrick talking about it himself...his primary job is to "protect the back 4"...a defensive role designed for a defensive midfielder...he elaborates further so watch it for yourself (there's another interview where he specifically states he played DM for spurs and his job was to make sure we "didn't concede")...I'll look for it.

Then that is a failing of the manager. Carrick's primary role should be the platform from which the team attacks - defending isn't an objective in it's own right, it's a means for allowing a team to attack.

If the manager didn't get that across properly then he should have done better.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I disagree with most of that - to me a defensive midfielder is a midfielder whose role is primarily to defend.

Now I thought the whole point of you insisting that we were playing 2 DMs was a criticism of AVB suggesting that he's too cautious and defensive. If that's not the case then I apologise and I've been wasting your time.

If that is the case, then how does that fit with your assertion that a DM can be pretty much anything as long as the line up on paper/screen has them positioned in that 30-40yd area between our box and the midfield line?

**EDIT**

And if that is the case, whose line up are you using to find out where their starting positions are? AVB's? Freund's? Sky's? I'm pretty sure I know which of the three you have access to. After all, you can see from the links above that neither Dembele nor Paulinho stay in that position much.

The dashboard :lol:

Anyway my point in this debate wasn't to point out how cautious we are..it was to define the role of a DM. We're not going to agree...you will ignore what the footballer himself states his role/position is and i will ignore 'The Dashboard' we will continue to go around in circles.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Then that is a failing of the manager. Carrick's primary role should be the platform from which the team attacks - defending isn't an objective in it's own right, it's a means for allowing a team to attack.

If the manager didn't get that across properly then he should have done better.

I don't understand? failing of the manager?

I guess you know more than the player himself and his manager ....as i said we're going to go around in circles.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I'd agree, but if it's Dembele Paulinho then I think that can be kind of a double pivot definition. Sandro/Dembele for example fits it too IMO.

But I do see what you are saying, Dembele is a slightly different sort of player and he does float a bit. He's very modern and I don't think there are many actual like him around at the moment, a player who is a ball carrier through the centre rather than a passer. You can't class him as a deep lying play maker but not a pure DM either. He's a bit like Wheelchair, but Wheelchair is a better passer.

I see where you're going with the Dembele definition issue - he's certainly tough to categorise.

When I was a kid and used to play Championship Manager he'd have been one of those players whose position was just labelled MC. Not DMC, (D)MC, AMC, (A)MC, etc. just MC. One of those players you really didn't know how to use unless you were playing the standard, flat 4-4-2. I guess that's my problem with Dembele now (when compared to Sandro & Paulhinho) - I just find it hard to work out how he benefits the team and how best to utilise him.

He can tackle - but he's not great, he can dribble - but only in ineffective areas of the pitch, he can pass - but rarely in a dangerous manner, he can shoot - but not all that well......

 

[scaramanga]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I don't understand? failing of the manager?

I guess you know more than the player himself and his manager ....as i said we're going to go around in circles.

Tactically, I suspect that most of us know more than most footballers. They're not bright on the whole and only tend to know one or two positions even vaguely well.

What they are good at and we're not is being drilled into reacting the right way without thinking about it. Those few who do react through thought tend to stand out from the rest.

I'm not saying I know more than the manager, merely that the manager failed to get across the point that defending in itself can never be the objective. If all a team does is defend (if they're any good at it) then they'll get 38 points in a season and get relegated. Defending is just a way of regaining possession in order to score. Carrick's role would partly be to tackle or preferably intercept the ball but only so that he could get the ball to begin another attack.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I see where you're going with the Dembele definition issue - he's certainly tough to categorise.

When I was a kid and used to play Championship Manager he'd have been one of those players whose position was just labelled MC. Not DMC, (D)MC, AMC, (A)MC, etc. just MC. One of those players you really didn't know how to use unless you were playing the standard, flat 4-4-2. I guess that's my problem with Dembele now (when compared to Sandro & Paulhinho) - I just find it hard to work out how he benefits the team and how best to utilise him.

He can tackle - but he's not great, he can dribble - but only in ineffective areas of the pitch, he can pass - but rarely in a dangerous manner, he can shoot - but not all that well......

Dembele was always a bugger with me when playing FM last year. As you say he doesn't really fit in to any of those pre-defined roles and therefore I kept him as MC, as went really specific with his individual player instructions.

That said, I think he's perfect for what AVB wants from his players. A team player, functional but with the ability to move through the gears when needed. Helps to win the ball back, helps to press, comfortable with possession and not going to be a passenger.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

On AVB - I really do agree with African's point that we are seeing right now what AVB wants, to an extent.

E.g. the reason we do look better going forward when one down is because the directive is there to flood forward a bit more. What I like is that when needing to push forward, we do seem capable of creating chances. When Torres get sent off in the game earlier in the season I was confident we would create one good chance and could win the game, it was just a shame Defoe fluffed it.

I think the plan is to play with more control earlier in matches and turn it up towards the end of games. That is then the point at which the opposition is tiring, the opposition is losing concentration and we can then step up after conserving our energy with the ball and over-run them. People always accuse AVB of being defensive or conservative, but I don't think it is that. It is control he wants. He wants to win. And the best way to control a game is to keep hold of the ball, and not let the opposition score and force us to make all the running. A solid defence is obviously the base of that.

We do need to improve the period in the games where we don't quite need to flood forward, but do need to look a bit more comfortable in what we are doing. I think that will come. There was discussion earlier in this thread about Arsenal having rehearsed movements - e.g. when this player goes here, that player goes there - and it helps pull apart a defence. I think we are getting to that but with so many new attacking players, all that have their little intricacies and ways of being used best, it will take time to get that firing. Something in AVB's biography talked about rehearsed movements I think. Kind of like plays in basketball.

I think we will get there. The players are buying into it. We have the defensive side down. The good part is that when we actually do need to flood forward and create chances, we can do it. We just need to learn what is probably the hardest bit, which is playing with the balance and good decision making that means we can conserve energy and keep the ball but still create chances when needed over the earlier parts of the game. This will come. This is clearly what we are working towards.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

And also what I would say, is this kind of controlled way of playing is exactly what top clubs do. They conserve their energy over a season and strike at the appropriate times. Plucky mid table teams need to gather as many points as soon as possible and it doesn't matter where they come from because they won't be fighting for anything at the end of the year. Arsenal's run at the end of last season coincided with them facing a plethora of mid-table teams that had nothing to play for. For sure they put in some good work, but they also had a very favourable run. Arsenal had also lost a few games earlier in the season (Norwich away for example) that they would never have lost in a final run in.

We are now being coached as a top club would be. That is over a game, and over a season. Conserving energy and waiting for the time to strike in both cases is the smart play. It's not the only factor in success for example - Arsenal's good start is a lot down to the fact that they have kept their good players and added a great one - but I'd say it's massively important and often understated when fans analyse their team, which is why the discussion then deviates into the manager not knowing what he is doing or this or that player being a flop or a panic buy. It is telling that our players are fully behind the manager, there aren't really any rumblings of discontent and they are clearly trying to implement what he wants from them out on the pitch. I'd say the fact that we look so awkward at the moment shows we are trying to do what he wants, it's just that we aren't comfortable and aren't very good at it yet.

So absolutely we do need to get to that stage where we are comfortable and creating good chances earlier on in games. It's just at the moment a good chance may come every 10 minutes and it should come every 5. (Spurious example, I don't know the exact stats but I'm just trying to illustrate the point). The fact that we have signed the players to get to that style as opposed to Dempsey et al means I think we will get there.