20 years....it's just unacceptable

[Bullet]

Jacques Santini was our Arsene Wenger.

Or Christian Gross.

Or Juande Ramos.

Visionaries, continentals, Wengerettes.

 

[billyiddo]

Wenger wasn't really an unkown in the football world either, he was recommended by Hoddle of all people having known him during his time in France.

@DubaiSpur you say Levy wasn't that kind of 'visionary' seems a bit unquantafiable that, but i can point to him bringing in the DoF set up that at the time went against English Footballs ways - so i don't see how you can flat out say he wouldn't have been all for a coach who had similarly different ideals to the norm, here.

I think your best line of argument in this hypothetical scenario would be wether he would have stuck with Wenger as long as Arsenal have - at least then you'd have something to base your thinking on...


Anyway it's all moot

 

[Baleforce]

Wenger was a big story when he left France iirc, didn't he try to blow the whistle on monacos recruitment practices?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Wenger was a big story when he left France iirc, didn't he try to blow the whistle on monacos recruitment practices?

And there was an 'age of consent' issue wasn't there, which is where the taunts originate from?

 

[jts1882]

I seem to remember seeing the ranking for 95-96 and we were above Arsenal and Chelsea. I'll see if I can find it later.

Meanwhile, here is an interesting comment from the 2003 report (on 2001-2 season):

The top ten operating profits all came from Premiership clubs. Manchester United (£34 million) again topped the table with profits double those of Saudi Sportswashing Machine (£15 million) in second place. Indeed over the ten years of the Premiership, Manchester United’s cumulative operating profits of £229 million are over three times greater than their nearest rival – Tottenham Hotspur (£74 million)

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/econ/faculty/Vrooman/Football-Finance-2003.pdf (p8)

Also see the chart on p33, which shows top ten.

--------------------

Edit: I have the following list in a file with Deloitte summaries, but I didn't note the source:

The world's financial top 20 clubs in full
Worth is in £000s, after the 1996-97 season.
1. Manchester United - England - 87,939
2. Barcelona - Spain - 58,862
3. Real Madrid - Spain - 55,659
4. Juventus - Italy - 53,223
5. Bayern Munich - Germany - 51, 619
6. Milan - Italy - 47,480
7. Borussia Dortmund - Germany - 42,199
8. Saudi Sportswashing Machine - England - 41,134
9. Liverpool - England - 39,153
10. Internazionale - Italy - 39,071
11. Flamengo - Brazil - 37,422
12. Atletico Madrid - Spain - 32,382
13. Paris St Germain - France - 31,967
14. Rangers - Scotland - 31,644
15. Roma - Italy - 28,215
16. Tottenham Hotspur - England - 27,874
17. Ajax - Netherlands - 27,804
18. Parma - Italy - 27,756
19. Lazio - Italy - 27,332
20. Arsenal - England - 27,158

 

[Finney Is Back]

Where we have lagged behind has been in things the directors have more direct control over, like commercial revenue, where, at least when it comes to the top six, "...Since 2009 Tottenham have the lowest growth, both in absolute and percentage terms, with an increase of only £19 million to £42 million. As a painful comparative, in the same period Arsenal have grown by £29 million to £77 million (excluding the new Puma deal which started in July 2014) – and that’s nothing compared to Emirates Marketing Project £148 million, Manchester United £119 million, Chelsea £56 million and Liverpool £44 million."

Hmmmm - perhaps it's just that my Maths is poor?.... but to me the above would indicate that we outperformed Arsenal in this aspect over that period.

Our commercial revenue grew from £23 million to £42 million - a rise of 83%.
Arsenal's commercial revenue grew from £48 million to £77 million - a rise of 60%.

 

[jts1882]

I think a comparison of commercial revenue needs to consider two things. One, Arsenal were trapped in a relatively poor shirt-stadium sponsorship. Two, they had CL football consistently, which is a major factor.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Since a kid growing up supporting spurs it seems we have always been behind Ar5enal.

Arsenal have made some astute signings that has helped them to be winners on the pitch, finance their stadium, clear debts, sell these for a profit to buy better players whereas we made some truly shocking signings and at the time when TV money was just getting bigger but no where near what it is now. Also, the invincible team cost a ridiculously cheap amount. From figures I have just off the internet got the total was £44.7m (see below). Ok this was 10+ years ago and prices have inflated since then, but Wenger has bought very well in his time, whereas our managers haven't come close in bringing in quality players and also making profit. Yes we have made profits under Levy but how many world class players have we had in the period that Ar5enal have?

They also had land to sell at Highbury which they turned into luxury apartments and sold which added to financing the stadium. Now they are debt free and are bringing in massive receipts, we are going to be in the position they were in prior to the Emirates but far worse off as we wont have the Champions League money and gate receipts coming in plus we will have the massive stadium debt to pay off.

Henry – 11m
Bergkamp - £7.5m
Pires £6m
Ljungberg £3m
Lauren £7.2m
Silva £4.5m
Lehmann £2m
Cole through the ranks
K Toure £150,000
Vieira - £3.5m
Campbell - Free

 

[parklane1]

I really struggle to see how a lack of financial growth can be aimed as a criticism at Levy whilst Dein and Arsenal are held up as the ideal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2001.E2.80.9302

The first year the Deloitte money league was extended to 20 clubs was in 04/05. We were 13th with a income of €104.5m, Arsenal were 10th with €171.3m

Last season Deloitte has us 13th with €215.8m, Arsenal 8th with €359.3m

Both clubs have done just a little bit better than doubling their revenues. Difference being that in that time period Arsenal actually completed their stadium project whilst we only started ours. Arsenal have of course been ever presents in the CL, we unfortunately stand with just the one season.

Them doing well, yes. Significantly better than us... Can't see it. As usual when talking about Levy I assume Dubai is not going to care much about numbers and other forms of evidence and rather stick to anecdotes about "connections in the footballing world" to support his opinion.

Just another reason for the "Levy out" phalanx to have another bitch?

 

[spurs1canada]

I hate that we can't even get close to Arse in what's left of my life even if we won Prem 10 years in a row.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Wenger wasn't really an unkown in the football world either, he was recommended by Hoddle of all people having known him during his time in France.

@DubaiSpur you say Levy wasn't that kind of 'visionary' seems a bit unquantafiable that, but i can point to him bringing in the DoF set up that at the time went against English Footballs ways - so i don't see how you can flat out say he wouldn't have been all for a coach who had similarly different ideals to the norm, here.

I think your best line of argument in this hypothetical scenario would be wether he would have stuck with Wenger as long as Arsenal have - at least then you'd have something to base your thinking on...


Anyway it's all moot

That too, although to be honest I doubt even Levy would sack a man who won a double in his second season and then continued winning trophies and titles (one of them an unbeaten one) well into the next decade. Probably wouldn't have bought the players he asked for, though.

You're right, it's all moot. And again, I don't think Levy would have done a bad job if he were in charge in the 90's: he'd have quite probably done much, much better than Scholar and Sugar. But he isn't David Dein: my dislike for that man stems solely from his brilliant and possibly underhanded stewardship at Arsenal, where he pulled off a rise into the financial and footballing elite that we wouldn't have been able to manage without an equally revolutionary chairman in charge.

And come on, setting up a DoF system, scrapping it, and then bringing it back to possibly avoid having to be directly answerable to the manager when it comes to the question of why his players aren't being brought in isn't comparable to what Wenger wanted, or did, when it came to completely overhauling the way the Premier League worked.

 

[jts1882]

Should we consider Levy's period as one?

If we look at the early years there were many mistakes, the learning curve, perhaps? But since the appointment of Arnsen, the trajectory has been positive.

 

[wiziwig]

Not true mate.
In fact, our position when he was tin-tacked was false. GF got those 6 point back and suddenly we were in the top 7 or 8 again...I don't say Ossie was Mourinho, but he deserved time and investment IMO. Klinsmann, Barmy and Sheringham were FANTASTIC to watch! We did need better defenders.

I agree , we were very poor times but we were also a delight to watch and the project was in it's infancy! I remember going up to Anfield and beating them 2-1 after Ossie and Stevie had been in charge for a handful of games . We played them off the park and were applauded off the pitch by the scousers. Souness the then Liverpool manager was left moaning away in his post match comments, that Spurs played like a 5-a side team with all their short passing possession football.

And we should also not be forgetting. When Sugar pulled the trigger on Ardiles, against the wishes I may add, of both Sheringham and Klinsmann, he also pushed out of the club, one Stevie Perryman!

I will always thank Alan Sugar for getting us financially stable and of course for those shiny Jumbotrons, but he erred for dumping on Ossie and Stevie for the likes of Francis and later on, for that gooner Man in The Raincoat.

That's some clear thought out football strategy by Sugar and the Spurs board - start out with Ardiles and Perryman, then finish up with George Graham!

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Right now I know we made massive mistakes 20 years ago and we should have got the right manager and backed him. I feel a lot better now. Luckily in that time I had a life and realised it's just a game that I watch for a bit of enjoyment. This topic has awakened my interest in history and I will now investigate the demise of the mesopotamian culture and see who I can blame for it.

 

[DTA]

Right now I know we made massive mistakes 20 years ago and we should have got the right manager and backed him. I feel a lot better now. Luckily in that time I had a life and realised it's just a game that I watch for a bit of enjoyment. This topic has awakened my interest in history and I will now investigate the demise of the mesopotamian culture and see who I can blame for it.

Ohh that would be interesting, can you post your findings.

 

[DublinSpur]

I will always thank Alan Sugar for getting us financially stable and of course for those shiny Jumbotrons, but he erred for dumping on Ossie and Stevie for the likes of Francis and later on, for that gooner Man in The Raincoat.

I thought I was the last remaining Spurs fan to think Sugar made a mistake by sacking Ossie. Good to know I'm not entirely alone! Personally I can't stand Sugar, but he almost certainly saved the club from a fate worse than Leeds... and I'll always take my hat off to the guy for that. But I think he made a lot of bad decisions while he was at Spurs, and firing Ardiles was one of them.

I'm also the last remaining Spurs fan to think Levy made a mistake in getting rid of Hoddle at the time.

So maybe my views are more because of nostalgia for the Spurs side of the late 70s and early 80s than anything remotely sensible.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Right now I know we made massive mistakes 20 years ago and we should have got the right manager and backed him. I feel a lot better now. Luckily in that time I had a life and realised it's just a game that I watch for a bit of enjoyment. This topic has awakened my interest in history and I will now investigate the demise of the mesopotamian culture and see who I can blame for it.

I blame Cambyses II. Bloody Persians: one of them moves into the neighborhood and before you know it, the whole street's full of 'em, smelling of myrrh and moaning about the revulsion of Nabonidus. Bloody foreigners, comin' over 'ere, nicking our ziggurats...

 

[We are Tottenham]

i'm generally in the boat of people who agree with this theory. however, im not even sure i would place too much blame on the likes of sugar. he did his best, and compared to how other clubs were being run, i dont think we were being run that poorly at all. its just unfortunate that we missed the "boat". having said that though, i dont think our overall happiness as fans would be that much greater anyway if we had been in arsenal's shoes. fans of both clubs are in are perennially "suffering". with the likes of abramovic and mansour coming in, we wouldn't have won much anyway.

arsenal were lucky to do well when the prem exploaded, and are benefitting from that. but from a fans point of view, their fans are not that much better off than us imo. only the owners of arsenal have really beneffited, by being able to sell their shares for high prices. their fans get to watch championsleague football too, but other than that, our chances of winning things isnt that much worse than arsenals imo.

the team who have really shot themselves in the foot over the past couple of decades is liverpool.

errr Neymar.........fans of both clubs are in are perennially "suffering".

you have to be joking.....we suffer every single year..and in so far as comparing how both clubs have done over the years
its one big long snigger for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Would i like them to do badly - YES
Would i be happy to finish 15th if they finished 16th - NO
Would i take us being 2nd next year if they won the League - YES


Completely irrelevant where they finish apart from having to put up with them mouthing off, or for a club comparison. However for balance you then need to compare teams that we have outperformed, there are far more of them, than those that have overtaken us.

In fact the goons are probably the only team that have outperformed us off the pitch

Utd, Liverpool were always ahead of us
City, Chelsea financially doped
Its only goons who have legitimately outperformed us revenue wise, which in turn has lead to performances on the pitch

 

[spurs' magna carter]