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20 years....it's just unacceptable

wiziwig said:
We have to remember, we sold Gazza to pay off debt and due to the Sugar/Venables fallout, the club was in a bad moment. Established players had followed El Tel out the of the club, the likes of Linekar, Stewart, Durie, Nayim, Ruddock, Fenwick, Van Den Hauwe, all departed . Ardiles' first season after a good start, soon turned into a nightmare, when we lost to injuries our remaining best players, Sheringham, Mabbutt and Thorstvedt . Things had got so bad, we had an 18 year old Judas playing center forward!
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First of all if my memory is correct many of those listed left BEFORE El Tel left after being sacked by Sugar. Ruddock was the main one on that list who left as a result of El Tel leaving and Nayim was always going to leave in the summer of 1993 regardless of the El Tel/Sugar spat which occurred after he was due to leave.
Also, as much as I don't look back to kindly on Gerry Francis' abilities, he took the same team that Ardiles had a made us much MUCH more solid straight away and with the same players.

So let's not sugarcoat how haphazard Ardiles was with how he set up our team; we play with a front 5, one CM and then an ever more exposed defence. It was great to watch - if you were a neutral.
 
Spurs7891 said:
How can you not blame Levy ? Afterall, the majority of these 20 years, which is 14 long years, we had been under Levy ! In fact, I blame Levy more than anyone. The moment he sacked GG before that FA Cup semi final in 2001, we were destined to struggle for the next decade and so.
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Because he is a long, LONG way behind the two I did blame. Levy inherited a very mid table THFC with a decimated youth set up and inadequate training facilities. Levy has done a pretty good job in changing Spurs from a midtable (at best) position where the likes of Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa and Leeds were looking down their noses at us, to one where we are seen as the 6th biggest/best team in the land.

Our problems came a long, long way before the 2001 FA Cup semi final and while the timing of removing GG from the club was poor with the impending FA Cup semi final, the ultimate aim justified it I think.

Scholar bankrupted us and Sugar then ripped the soul out of the club having paid a relative pittance to save us from bankruptcy. Levy has (IMO reasonably successfully) delivered financial stability and restored much of the soul of the club.
 
glorygloryeze said:
First of all if my memory is correct many of those listed left BEFORE El Tel left after being sacked by Sugar. Ruddock was the main one on that list who left as a result of El Tel leaving and Nayim was always going to leave in the summer of 1993 regardless of the El Tel/Sugar spat which occurred after he was due to leave.
Also, as much as I don't look back to kindly on Gerry Francis' abilities, he took the same team that Ardiles had a made us much MUCH more solid straight away and with the same players.

So let's not sugarcoat how haphazard Ardiles was with how he set up our team; we play with a front 5, one CM and then an ever more exposed defence. It was great to watch - if you were a neutral.
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Venables wasn't manager during 1991-3. He stepped up to be DoF the summer after winning the FA cup.

Shreeves was first team coach in 91-2, then Livermore and Clemence in 92-3.
 
glorygloryeze said:
First of all if my memory is correct many of those listed left BEFORE El Tel left after being sacked by Sugar. Ruddock was the main one on that list who left as a result of El Tel leaving and Nayim was always going to leave in the summer of 1993 regardless of the El Tel/Sugar spat which occurred after he was due to leave.
Also, as much as I don't look back to kindly on Gerry Francis' abilities, he took the same team that Ardiles had a made us much MUCH more solid straight away and with the same players.

So let's not sugarcoat how haphazard Ardiles was with how he set up our team; we play with a front 5, one CM and then an ever more exposed defence. It was great to watch - if you were a neutral.
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I think you can probably read between the lines to ascertain the reasons why a lot of Spurs players departed once the Venables/Sugar thing blew up....
 
Finney Is Back said:
I think you can probably read between the lines to ascertain the reasons why a lot of Spurs players departed once the Venables/Sugar thing blew up....
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But which ones were these? Of the list quoted , only really Ruddock left...or are you referring to other things here??
 
Finney Is Back said:
Because he is a long, LONG way behind the two I did blame. Levy inherited a very mid table THFC with a decimated youth set up and inadequate training facilities. Levy has done a pretty good job in changing Spurs from a midtable (at best) position where the likes of Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa and Leeds were looking down their noses at us, to one where we are seen as the 6th biggest/best team in the land.

Our problems came a long, long way before the 2001 FA Cup semi final and while the timing of removing GG from the club was poor with the impending FA Cup semi final, the ultimate aim justified it I think.

Scholar bankrupted us and Sugar then ripped the soul out of the club having paid a relative pittance to save us from bankruptcy. Levy has (IMO reasonably successfully) delivered financial stability and restored much of the soul of the club.
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For me our dark decade was 1994-2004. This was the period we flirted with relegation and at best finished 10-12th.

Things have been broadly on the up since then. I think firmly established ourselves back in our 'natural' 6th spot is about right until the stadium allows us to compete with Liverpool and Arsenal on wages, or the Chelsea and/or City bubble bursts.
 
What actually happened to Scholar since he nearly left us in the brick?
Did he flee the country or declare himself bankrupt?
 
While a lot of cogent arguments have been made in this thread, I still haven't seen a better theory than my deal with the devil for why we haven't finished above them for 20 years. Am I right in believing that no other team can hold that over us?
 
NYSpur said:
While a lot of cogent arguments have been made in this thread, I still haven't seen a better theory than my deal with the devil for why we haven't finished above them for 20 years. Am I right in believing that no other team can hold that over us?
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we've finished above everyone in the last 5 years except them :mad:


Chelsea United and Liverpool have all suffered big blips at one time or another when changing managers - AVB at Chelsea, Moyes at United and Hodgson/Rodgers at Liverpool, this has allowed us to spend at least a season above them.
 
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For much of that period, Arsenal were second or third highest wage earners, while we were lower than sixth. Teams like Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa, Portsmouth and West Ham overspent and nearly all suffered the consequences. In Jol's best season we just missed out on 4th despite Arsenal having a wage bill twice ours.

More recently, the gap has been that 4th-6th difference and during that period Wenger hasn't failed to meet minimum expectations, which is quite an achievement. Arsenal have also had the continuity with Wenger. We saw how disruption at board or management level can harm even United, Liverpool and Abramovich-fueled Chelsea.

Annoying, but in golfing term Arsenal have held par and we've missed our chances of birdies.
 
jts1882 said:
For much of that period, Arsenal were second or third highest wage earners, while we were lower than sixth. Teams like Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa, Portsmouth and West Ham overspent and nearly all suffered the consequences. In Jol's best season we just missed out on 4th despite Arsenal having a wage bill twice ours.

More recently, the gap has been that 4th-6th difference and during that period Wenger hasn't failed to meet minimum expectations, which is quite an achievement. Arsenal have also had the continuity with Wenger. We saw how disruption at board or management level can harm even United, Liverpool and Abramovich-fueled Chelsea.

Annoying, but in golfing term Arsenal have held par and we've missed our chances of birdies.
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well summarized, good post

although in the bigger picture, outside of the direct comparison with Arsenal, we have had 'birdies' in the years we have finished 4th/5th
 
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As much as bad decisions have occurred we have suffered a huge slice of bad luck. As Gutter Boy stated the football landscape in the late 80s immediately prior to the birth of the PL was dominated by the 'Big 5' Arsenal, Everton, Liverpool, Man Utd and Tottenham. From 1983 - 1992 we finished above Arsenal 4 times out of 10 and won 3 FA Cup's and the UEFA Cup whilst L'Arse won the League in 89 and 91 and the League Cup so fairly even.

The years between 1988 and 1992 have proven to be absolutely crucial in the evolution of English club football; firstly the Hillsborough tragedy forced clubs to rebuild their stadiums (with large amounts of Football Foundation funding available) making them safe and ready for a new audience of more affluent middle class and corporate customers. Secondly England's 'success; in Italia '90 made football fashionable and created a butterfly effect which went some way to Sky Sports paying £365m to the top flight clubs in the new Premier League (compared to £44m over a 4-year period split between all 92 clubs paid by ITV in 1988).

Yet as the PL gravy train rolled into town we were on the decline due to the financial mess we had got ourselves into - the Summer of '92 was the year that both Gazza and Lineker left the club (imagine Sky Sports drooling over the pair of them in Spurs shirts?) - meanwhile Arsenal and to a greater extent Man Utd were on the asendency . Like us, Liverpool and Everton were in decline too; Liverpool have achieved some moderate sporadic success by their standards and Everton are no more than a romantic mid table club in a crumbling stadium.

Simply, if you were able to put your foot on the gas in the years between 1992 and 1997 you were in a fantastic position to create a vicious cycle of success. I'm a big supporter of Alan Sugar - I would liken him to the current Coalition Gov't in that he had to oversee a period of necessary austerity. Unfortunately he had his fingers badly burned by Klinsmann which put him off foreign players (Carlos Kickaball's) and so Bergkamp and Zola went to Arsenal and Chelsea respectively. Sugar was not a football visionary, Scholar had been.

Had the PL come around 10 years earlier in 1982 I have no doubt that (subject to the right decisions being made at board level) us Liverpool and Everton (and possibly Villa) could have gone on to dominate English and European football. We certainly could have dominated North London football!
 
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Jurgen the German said:
I don't want to turn it into a tinkleing contest between AVB and Redknapp because they both fudgeed up in my opinion. One more than the other of course.
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Yeah that's why i edited my post o_O

Our form was actually better in the second half of AVBs first season which is why i think it's harsh to say we fudged it up that year - can see where you're coming from though
 
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