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Would you fly on a Boeing 737 Max?

The pilot who orchestrated the dramatic plane landing in the Hudson River 10 years ago told a congressional panel Wednesday that he can see how crews would have struggled during the recent Boeing 737 MAX crashes after he spent time in a simulator running recreations of the doomed flights.
"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.
Sullenberger, whose "Miracle on the Hudson" landing in 2009 saved the lives of all 155 people on board, told the panel that it's important pilots don't have "inadvertent traps."
"We must make sure that everyone who occupies a pilot seat is fully armed with the information, knowledge, training, skill and judgment to be able to be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its component systems and of the situations simultaneously and continuously throughout the flight," he said.
Pilots need physical, firsthand experience to be prepared for emergencies, Sullenberger said.
"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he said.
The Boeing 737 MAX has come under intense criticism after two planes of that model recently crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia, killing a total of 346 people.
Following the crash of the Ethiopian plane in March, 737 MAX jets were grounded and the company has been working to come up with a fix to the automatic safety feature that has been the focus of crash investigations. A time frame for the 737 Max's return to service has not yet been announced.
 
spasm said:
The pilot who orchestrated the dramatic plane landing in the Hudson River 10 years ago told a congressional panel Wednesday that he can see how crews would have struggled during the recent Boeing 737 MAX crashes after he spent time in a simulator running recreations of the doomed flights.
"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House Transportation Committee during a hearing on the embattled plane model.
Sullenberger, whose "Miracle on the Hudson" landing in 2009 saved the lives of all 155 people on board, told the panel that it's important pilots don't have "inadvertent traps."
"We must make sure that everyone who occupies a pilot seat is fully armed with the information, knowledge, training, skill and judgment to be able to be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its component systems and of the situations simultaneously and continuously throughout the flight," he said.
Pilots need physical, firsthand experience to be prepared for emergencies, Sullenberger said.
"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he said.
The Boeing 737 MAX has come under intense criticism after two planes of that model recently crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia, killing a total of 346 people.
Following the crash of the Ethiopian plane in March, 737 MAX jets were grounded and the company has been working to come up with a fix to the automatic safety feature that has been the focus of crash investigations. A time frame for the 737 Max's return to service has not yet been announced.
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You know "Sully" is an Airbus pilot who isn't type rated on any form of 737 right?

Although his comments are relevant, just not in the way he thinks. Ethiopian Airways also has a habit of sending up pilots and FOs with little to no experience, who are also unable to cope with problems because they lack the basic experience to deal with them.
 
scaramanga said:
You know "Sully" is an Airbus pilot who isn't type rated on any form of 737 right?

Although his comments are relevant, just not in the way he thinks. Ethiopian Airways also has a habit of sending up pilots and FOs with little to no experience, who are also unable to cope with problems because they lack the basic experience to deal with them.
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That’s not entirely true.

I’ve watched the Tom Hanks film and now believe I’m fully capable of flying any plane into a river.
 
Kenyan Spur said:
A whole lot of NEW problems for the 737 MAX disaster.

Apart from the software that is faulty, a NEW hardware problem has been discovered by the FAA.

As some experts would put it " A GARBAGE PLANE "

Most world media channels have been running the story over the past 2 days.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/27/...lation-extended-southwest-united-airlines-faa

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/27/...risk-flaw-vulnerability-problem-airworthiness

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Believing that the above is news really does show a thorough lack of understanding of how the airliner industry works.

If you consider any of these issues to be show stoppers, then you'd probably never fly on another aircraft if you knew how often they were found. These kind of bugs are being found in aircraft that are decades old, yet they've all survived in the hands of competent pilots flying for airlines that treat safety as an important issue.

You'll never guess what happens when airlines under less strict regulation use pilots that are not sufficiently skilled......

As a bit of advice, I suggest you look up the Swiss Cheese model of accident avoidance. It's pretty standard in the airline industry, amongst many others. The idea being that with systems so complex, there will always be a number of "holes" in each layer. So you apply strict measures to each one so that there's a vanishingly small chance of all the holes lining up (very simplified, but it will do).

Ask yourself this. Why have no US Max 8s crashed? Why have none from the UK? What is the safety record like of the two airlines that did have crashes? Now ask yourself again whether the element that is common and standard across all of those countries and airlines is really the one at fault.
 
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I understand where you are coming from.
And I agree that there could be some issues with most aircraft models.
However, with the 737 MAX, it is a different story.
They have been grounded for months and there is no clear date on when they will be allowed to fly again.
And this includes airlines across the world, including the US.
 
Kenyan Spur said:
I understand where you are coming from.
And I agree that there could be some issues with most aircraft models.
However, with the 737 MAX, it is a different story.
They have been grounded for months and there is no clear date on when they will be allowed to fly again.
And this includes airlines across the world, including the US.
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They have, and that's a sign of the strength of the system/model used. If only the Indonesian pilots had read the log of the previous flight, this could have happened with no casualties.

The grounding is as much a sign of the press fuss as it is reality. Under normal circumstances, without the publicity, this would have been fixed in a few weeks and we'd all be safely and happily flying in Max8s
 
scaramanga said:
They have, and that's a sign of the strength of the system/model used. If only the Indonesian pilots had read the log of the previous flight, this could have happened with no casualties.

The grounding is as much a sign of the press fuss as it is reality. Under normal circumstances, without the publicity, this would have been fixed in a few weeks and we'd all be safely and happily flying in Max8s
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How can you continue to defend a company who have just been exposed using $9 an hour engineers, after sacking a whole bunch of senior staff?

The people in charge at Boeing are doing a great job of completely fudging the companies once solid reputation.

They won't be the ones to go though, even if they are I'm sure they'd be handsomely compensated.
 
Utter disgrace.

"Engineers feared the practice meant code wasn’t done right.

It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ax-software-outsourced-to-9-an-hour-engineers
 
nayenezgani said:
How can you continue to defend a company who have just been exposed using $9 an hour engineers, after sacking a whole bunch of senior staff?

The people in charge at Boeing are doing a great job of completely fudging the companies once solid reputation.

They won't be the ones to go though, even if they are I'm sure they'd be handsomely compensated.
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I suppose they could just never cut costs and cease trading......
 
nayenezgani said:
Their CEO is paid 30mil a year, maybe start there?

Not by cheaping out on software and risking/taking innocent people's lives.
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Mullenburg's salary is $1.7M - pretty much exactly the same as that of the simplest comparison (Tom Enders). The rest is performance based and he earned it because he (and by extension, Boeing) had a really good year.

Now I've never met Mullenburg and I'm not likely to, so we'll have to do some guesswork for the rest. Do you think he's intelligent enough to understand that if Boeing airplanes crash, the company's fortunes and therefore his will take a downward turn? Or do you think they dragged some minimum wage monkey in off the street and he's working on the calculation that every cent he doesn't spend he can stick in his back pocket?

It's also worth noting, by the way, that not only does he not set his own salary but he'll almost certainly only be getting paid that kind of remuneration in stock or stock options. That stock isn't going to be worth much if Boeing planes crash all the time. Again, I think you need to ask yourself if Mullenburg is capable or not of that fairly small logical step. I suspect he is.

FWIW, the GDP of Ethiopia is over $80B and someone with a better legal team than me might publicly claim that their shoddy safety standards cause crashes all the time.
 
scaramanga said:
Mullenburg's salary is $1.7M - pretty much exactly the same as that of the simplest comparison (Tom Enders). The rest is performance based and he earned it because he (and by extension, Boeing) had a really good year.
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By a mass murders standards maybe :oops:
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50177788

So the Lion Air investigation has landed pretty much precisely as I said it would. Ethiopian Air has, through its entire existence, been accused of similar practices - only difference being that the investigators in that accident are also the owners of the airline. Can anyone still seriously doubt that an independent investigation would show a similar result?
 
scaramanga said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50177788

So the Lion Air investigation has landed pretty much precisely as I said it would. Ethiopian Air has, through its entire existence, been accused of similar practices - only difference being that the investigators in that accident are also the owners of the airline. Can anyone still seriously doubt that an independent investigation would show a similar result?
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So there is no problem with MCAS!? o_O
 
SpurMeUp said:
So there is no problem with MCAS!? o_O
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It needs some engineering - that's perfectly normal with any product as complex as an aircraft.

The important fact is that, when pilots are properly trained, and maintenance procedures followed, it's not life threatening. Basically the same as plenty of other faults that all aircraft from all manufacturers are launched with.
 
The word at Heathrow BA maintainace is It may not fly again 'commercially'. Due to the lack of customer and thus airline confidence.
 
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