Wilson Odobert

[Surfless]

whatever the noise from the media and fair weather fans, we have actually got a coaching team that will improve young players - its been Cochrane and Frank's thing for years. Odobert is clearly a talent that needs nurturing, just as are Tel, Moore, Udogie, Scarlett, Gray and Bergvall.

The issues we are having around the team at the moment are linked in some ways to the youthful age of most of the main participants. There's a reason we have signed 2 established players in Palhinha and Gallacher, and are after Robertson from Liverpool - we need a balance of youth and experience and at the moment the only real experience we have is Romero and all his international triumphs.

For its part, the club has managed through a combination of decisions, to eliminate any kind of upward bounce we could have got from the Europa League win - this comes from the fact that Ange had got so bad in the league, and then the owners decided to remove Levy, who by the way would have sacked Frank by now, absolutely no doubt about it. As a result of the lack of an upward bounce we are now waiting on several young players to develop, and that is not something that is linear.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Best game I've seen him play for us and on the right of all places. There's an element that makes me wonder if the Dortmund RB was just that bad, but Odobert had the beating of him every time. He didn't have the hesitancy that he often demonstrates on the left. I've not been a fan of his RW performances up till now but this was avery promising go.

It was partly because Porro was pushing forward and Dortmund's left back had two to deal with most of the game making it quite easy for Odobert. Once Dortmund moved to a 3-5-1 system in the second half they managed to control Porro and Odobert much better (by the wing back and LCB combining to shut that space down that we were operating in in the first half).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Thanks. When you say he's getting ball in better situations, do you mean our other players are looking for him earlier and passing it quicker to him when he's in space?

The disappointment i had in the second half vs Dortmund is that we didn't continue to get him the ball to run into sopace against their full-back (who i felt he had on toast at times in the first half)

See my post above. Dortmund changed shape, which allowed them to match up their LCB against Odobert and their left wing back against Porro. In the first half Porro and Odobert were doubling up on Dortmund's left back.

I have almost never seen a full back fare well when having to try to cope with two players - one of the reasons why I was so confident that Danny Rose would become a great player way back when he first got into our team was because I watched him actually cope OK on the frequent occasions when Nacer Chadli didn't bother tracking back, leaving him with two. I remember people used to dig Rose out and suggest he wasn't good enough, instead of realising that he was basically constantly having to deal with two attackers all by himself due to Chadli's laziness.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Not entirely sure on physical strength. More the lack of hesitancy discussed above. Think it's also partly getting the ball in better situations. Maybe a bit stronger now, but for me more that his lack of physical strength is less of an issue when set up well and being more direct I would guess.

I don't think his physical strength is an issue. He's just about average in that department.
His confidence has been his turning point this season....and it's impossible to know who is responsible for the uptick

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think his physical strength is an issue. He's just about average in that department.
His confidence has been his turning point this season....and it's impossible to know who is responsible for the uptick

Agreed. Don't think physicality is a big issue, but mostly he will get stronger over the coming years and that will be a good thing (not bulky or super strong as an aim, more a natural process and through continued training).

Responsibility is difficult to know beyond some of it being on him at least. I think he's starting to become more the player he was at Burnley before we signed him and his injuries, and probably developing a bit from there.

The key for me, as with most players, is that we have to keep finding ways to set him up in situations he can thrive in. Not just against one of the worst teams in the league, or in a game where we had Bergvall and Gray in central midfield and was clearly on the front foot. But in most games, at least for phases of the game.

 

[braineclipse]

his general play is poor if he doesn't get to go full speed chasing the ball
many passes too slow or a behind the recipient, and he doesn't get back to pressure or defend much unlike spence
definitely a highlights reel player imo

You talking about Odobert or someone else here?

 

[SpurMeUp]

his general play is poor if he doesn't get to go full speed chasing the ball
many passes too slow or a behind the recipient, and he doesn't get back to pressure or defend much unlike spence
definitely a highlights reel player imo

Very inconsistent. But he is improving. Had a good game against his former club. Still hugely frustrating I agree. More accurate crosses and we’d have scored in the opening minute for example.

 

[metalgear]

You talking about Odobert or someone else here?

yes odobert. he knows he isn't strong enough so he avoids initiating one on ones when we all know he can
even his passes are soft and slow when a fast ping is advantageous\
he is best on the run reacting and instincts engaged, not one to give the ball to expecting him to initiate something

 

[metalgear]

Very inconsistent. But he is improving. Had a good game against his former club. Still hugely frustrating I agree. More accurate crosses and we’d have scored in the opening minute for example.

he is not contributing enough. best as a sub because --- i mean just look at the table

 

[braineclipse]

yes odobert. he knows he isn't strong enough so he avoids initiating one on ones when we all know he can
even his passes are soft and slow when a fast ping is advantageous\
he is best on the run reacting and instincts engaged, not one to give the ball to expecting him to initiate something

Will be interesting to see how he develops. I see it a bit differently to you, but difficult to judge imo with how dysfunctional we've been this season and his injury problems combined with dysfunction last season.

I guess it also depends who you compare him too. To me he seems to have a pretty good combination of both dribbling and combination play, decent ball striker too and quick.

The typical situation our wide players receive the ball in (under pressure, facing the wrong way) only really Kudus does well in. Kulusevski too when he was fit and available, but obviously that's not been the case this season.

 

[SpurMeUp]

he is not contributing enough. best as a sub because --- i mean just look at the table

That's the story of our season right. All the developing attackera (sqaud players) are suddenly expected to start and deliver. Most are young guns with potential, not experienced pros. Hence why we are probably looking to sign Robertson, to reballance and have a bit more experience among the squad players.

 

[braineclipse]

That's the story of our season right. All the developing attackera (sqaud players) are suddenly expected to start and deliver. Most are young guns with potential, not experienced pros. Hence why we are probably looking to sign Robertson, to reballance and have a bit more experience among the squad players.

Seems like a situation where having a clear plan for how to attack, progress the ball and create chances would be good. Instead we've gone for relying on individual quality, the "give it to Kudus i under pressure and see what he can do" approach to ball progression. Then run him into the ground until he gets injured.

Or maybe a situation where adding any level of creativity and ball progression to our midfield to feed those inexperienced attacking players at least half decent service. Like playing our player of the season last year (Bergvall) in the role where he actually did well enough to get that recognition last season. Well, now he's injured. But we had the season up until the Dortmund game to do that.

Or maybe a situation where running one of our best passers and definitely best crosser (Porro) into the ground with the predictable drop in form would be a bad idea.

(I could go on listing examples, but I won't).

Frank has played a shocker. His saving grace right now being Romero and VdV doing the impossible, the lack of obvious caretaker options. And him having put us in the kind of situation he's actually good at dealing with, a fight for your lives, back against the wall do anything needed to scrape a result.

If we were in this situation as a result of another manager in charge Frank would actually be one we would look at to get us out of trouble. Back to basics, defend well and try to score from a set piece. Him putting us in that situation in the first place is one of those ironies that brings the slightest of smiles to a really bad situation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Seems like a situation where having a clear plan for how to attack, progress the ball and create chances would be good. Instead we've gone for relying on individual quality, the "give it to Kudus i under pressure and see what he can do" approach to ball progression. Then run him into the ground until he gets injured.

This narrative about a "clear plan" is overly simplistic.

If we are attacking and scoring, we have a 'clear plan'. So I'd say a successful attack is more the criteria than clear plan. You can have a clear plan, and players don't have the skills to execute. All good? No.

Conte was probably the manager with the clearest of plans. Plans had very specific paths to run into etc. Everything was choreographed. Most other managers see that you can possibly configure the movements of a round spherical object so perfectly, and players will move as they need to. Yes you have some plans and patterns but more important is chemistry, playing with speed and instinct, and just that automatic connection.

Or maybe a situation where adding any level of creativity and ball progression to our midfield to feed those inexperienced attacking players at least half decent service. Like playing our player of the season last year (Bergvall) in the role where he actually did well enough to get that recognition last season. Well, now he's injured. But we had the season up until the Dortmund game to do that.

Or maybe a situation where running one of our best passers and definitely best crosser (Porro) into the ground with the predictable drop in form would be a bad idea.

(I could go on listing examples, but I won't).

Frank has played a shocker. His saving grace right now being Romero and VdV doing the impossible, the lack of obvious caretaker options. And him having put us in the kind of situation he's actually good at dealing with, a fight for your lives, back against the wall do anything needed to scrape a result.

If we were in this situation as a result of another manager in charge Frank would actually be one we would look at to get us out of trouble. Back to basics, defend well and try to score from a set piece. Him putting us in that situation in the first place is one of those ironies that brings the slightest of smiles to a really bad situation.

I thought Bergvall has played well under Frank.

 

[braineclipse]

This narrative about a "clear plan" is overly simplistic.

If we are attacking and scoring, we have a 'clear plan'. So I'd say a successful attack is more the criteria than clear plan. You can have a clear plan, and players don't have the skills to execute. All good? No.

Conte was probably the manager with the clearest of plans. Plans had very specific paths to run into etc. Everything was choreographed. Most other managers see that you can possibly configure the movements of a round spherical object so perfectly, and players will move as they need to. Yes you have some plans and patterns but more important is chemistry, playing with speed and instinct, and just that automatic connection.



I thought Bergvall has played well under Frank.

Doesn't have to be as specific as under Conte. But there imo should be some kind of plan that imo obviously also should match the types of players we have.

If the plan is to play a horseshoe buildup and progress it down the flanks, fine if you have players suited to that. Kudus is our only winger suited to that.

If the plan is to play long quite a bit, fine if you have target men capable of holding the ball up well in those situations. We have one, Solanke who is good (imo not great) at that stuff.

These players not being suited to execute this plan should have been fairly obvious from back in preseason imo. Did anyone here think Johnson, Tel or Odobert would be good at ball progression having received the ball on the half way line under significant pressure? Did anyone think lumping long balls at Richarlison would be a good idea for how to attack?

All managers can obviously do better if they had better players. But I thought part of the point of a manager like Frank was that he would adjust the style of play to the players he has and the opposition?

Observation from elsewhere (including on here), but some of our better football this season has been when Frank's plans have been thrown out the window. When chasing games towards the end, when going down to 10 men against Liverpool.

I think Bergvall has done well enough. I think he's been misused though. Even next to another of the very young players (Gray) they did well together against Dortmund. But he's almost exclusively been used as a 10 asked to chase second balls and hoping at some point the ball will drop to him and he can do something useful with it.

 

[BrentwoodSpur]

Wilson and Kolo both involved in a smash today. Looks like they’re fine, luckily

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[Lemonade Money]

Wilson Odobert and Randal Kolo Muani were involved in a car crash (a.k.a. Tottenham Hotspur)

 

[tw12yid]

Sounds like they didn’t fly with the team but will travel later on today. Probably already on route. Just probably couldn’t sort out the paperwork and car recovery and make the flight.