What was the trigger in our downward trend?

[billyiddo]

Give me a manager who can deliver the league title regularly … not an elite manager? He’s definitely a great manager. If he manages outside of Emirates Marketing Project he would be regarded as the second best manager in the league.

Nah Elite means best of the best and in manager terms that means winning on multiple fronts and in Europe - both of which has alluded Conte his whole career afaics

He's a very good league manager, one of the best but he's not rubbing shoulders with Ancelotti, Mourinho et all.

 

[Gazza]

Nah Elite means best of the best and in manager terms that means winning on multiple fronts and in Europe - both of which has alluded Conte his whole career afaics

He's a very good league manager, one of the best but he's not rubbing shoulders with Ancelotti, Mourinho et all.

Let’s be honest, on paper, he’s the best manager that we have had in the premier league. Shame that we were not ever in a million years going to back him or put up with him.

 

[thfcsteff]

For me the trigger came in Poch's last season after the Champions League final. I think we should have given him the opportunity to rebuild the squad after that rather than give it to a past it Mou.

Since then every manager bears some responsibility for what's happened after. Mourinho for losing his touch and being a bit of a cnut, Conte for giving up on us once he realised we weren't winners like he's used to. Ange for not coaching a team to defend properly for 2 seasons. Hell, we got away with it in Europe but it was always going to bite us on the a*se in the PL. Thomas Frank because after a promising start I'm not sure what happened to his coaching and his inability to motivate the players to be better than the sum of their parts.

Oh and special mention to the medical and fitness teams for the horrendous injury lists over the last 3 seasons that has crippled us and robbed us of our best players.

As you know (part 95 hahahaha) I agree re: Poch. As I have said many times, a small piece of my Spurs me died between June 1st and his sacking in November, because I knew we'd looked the gifthorse in the mouth and walked away when the stakes were highest. I am often reminded of what Liverpool did when they got thumped hy RM in the CL Final the previous season. They doubled-down and backed him. We should've done the same.

As for the rest of your post, I think it is one of the most succinctly fair and accurate set of hypothesis I have seen. I'd add the decision to can Levy during a season in there, but yes, the root of the rot started in November 2019.

 

[thfcsteff]

For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.

And a reminder that Jose Mourinho told Levy he could 'do better with this squad' than Poch, who had spent over a year saying there was a 'painful rebuild' to be done and who had tried to refresh the squad by turning over players like Toby and Eriksen yet was rebuffed by our own board.

 

[Bishop]

Let’s be honest, on paper, he’s the best manager that we have had in the premier league. Shame that we were not ever in a million years going to back him or put up with him.

He was a waste of time appointment, just like Jose was. Like you say we were never going to support him in the manner he requires so why even waste our and his time pretending it could ever work.

He was an appointment doomed to fail as soon as he accepted the job.

 

[thfcsteff]

He was a waste of time appointment, just like Jose was. Like you say we were never going to support him in the manner he requires so why even waste our and his time pretending it could ever work.

He was an appointment doomed to fail as soon as he accepted the job.

And that was my huge issue with it.
And with him!
I genuinely thought the only reason he'd take it is because he was given assurances, and that the second those assurances were not met, he'd be off/resign. Instead he took it. From the moment Djed was signed I knew Conte was not going to be the guy I thought. It's not about whether anyone thinks Spence was a good signing or not (I think he's got skills but also flaws preventing him from being elite) it's about the fact he was clearly a 'club' signing who Conte did not want. Which on any level is a poor signing to make, both for player and manager.

 

[billyiddo]

We were in a comparatively decent position when Conte blew up and bailed - he didn't have the temperament to take on a job where he was going to be the 5th or 6th strongest club in such a competitive league - he wasn't prepared to do the hard incremental building that was required.

He took us for a ride - and as with Mourinho it was a big mistake of Levy that he couldn't see the obviousness of that.

 

[thfcsteff]

We were in a comparatively decent position when Conte blew up and bailed - he didn't have the temperament to take on a job where he was going to be the 5th or 6th strongest club in such a competitive league - he wasn't prepared to do the hard incremental building that was required.

He took us for a ride - and as with Mourinho it was a big mistake of Levy that he couldn't see the obviousness of that.

This all day with both!

 

[Mcfee]

And a reminder that Jose Mourinho told Levy he could 'do better with this squad' than Poch, who had spent over a year saying there was a 'painful rebuild' to be done and who had tried to refresh the squad by turning over players like Toby and Eriksen yet was rebuffed by our own board.

7 years on and I think we’re finally going to see what a ‘painful’ rebuild really looks like.

 

[thfcsteff]

We were in a comparatively decent position when Conte blew up and bailed - he didn't have the temperament to take on a job where he was going to be the 5th or 6th strongest club in such a competitive league - he wasn't prepared to do the hard incremental building that was required.

He took us for a ride - and as with Mourinho it was a big mistake of Levy that he couldn't see the obviousness of that.

It is the main reason I hold a level of anger towards him that I don't even hold for Mourinho. The ONLY mitigation I could offer him is emotional distress -at the time I felt he had cracked after Ventrone and then friends dying, not to mention his own health issues - however the nature of his meltdown and bus-tossing was frankly unbelievably cowardly IMO.

 

[Muttley]

I also think he would have had Romero and VDV for more games and gotten results with them too.

Would he have had them more though? VDV has arguably been more robust since he's cut down on those defensive sprints as part of Ange's defensive setup. Also, I don't think which manager Romero plays for, he's gonna miss games. His trend has been set over a number of seasons now.

Ange could have really struggled if he had persisted with the kamikaze deep offside tactics when you're forced to keep changing your defence. That's what we've had to do all season. The only case I can build for Ange is that perhaps more and more of the squad would have "got it". It was disastrous in an Ange defensive system to chop and change players. It even happened with Forest when he quickly lost those first choice defenders.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Would he have had them more though? VDV has arguably been more robust since he's cut down on those defensive sprints as part of Ange's defensive setup. Also, I don't think which manager Romero plays for, he's gonna miss games. His trend has been set over a number of seasons now.

Ange could have really struggled if he had persisted with the kamikaze deep offside tactics when you're forced to keep changing your defence. That's what we've had to do all season. The only case I can build for Ange is that perhaps more and more of the squad would have "got it". It was disastrous in an Ange defensive system to chop and change players. It even happened with Forest when he quickly lost those first choice defenders.

Yeah I just don’t know whether VDV’s minutes available improved because he’s playing deeper or because we got a specialist to change his running gait over the course of the last year.

If he had them more, I’m confident we would have gotten better results. They are aggressive high line defenders and would have suited Ange’s football. And the metric now is not would we have been back at 5th under Ange but whether we would have been better with him that what we ended up seeing this season. And on that basis I can’t believe anyone would seriously say we wouldn’t have been.

 

[parj]

For me it was the sacking of Poch. The previous 15 years we were slowly trying to create an identity again. We had Jol, Redknapp and the Poch. These guys did 3, 4 and 5 years respectively and moved us huge steps forward. In between we tried the pragmatic crap, which inevitably failed but then we go back to a more balanced, slightly more attacking way of playing, with hard work and great player management. This helped us get a good blend of players in which Poch almost turned into English and European champions. The approach worked so we ripped up that playbook to again.

After Poch, as per the trends of the previous managers, we went pragmatic again. But then we went pragmatic again. And then we went pragmatic again. And then we went full on all out attack. And then we went pragmatic again.

Now here is the problem with this approach.... Our squad blend and transfer strategy doesn't match. The players don't suit an attacking manager and the crazy thing is they don't suit a pragmatic manager. Literally, only Danso, Solanke, and Palinha are those players. All the rest want the ball, which is great, but none of them were bought for being game changing attackers.

Our squad suits nobody, except maybe a more balanced manager. So we go and get Tudor in to play 7 defensive players and 3 attackers.

We threw away our philosophy that was beginning to work again in the hope for trophies, and now we staring at relegation. It's like being back in the Sugar years - no football plan.

 

[parj]

Yeah I just don’t know whether VDV’s minutes available improved because he’s playing deeper or because we got a specialist to change his running gait over the course of the last year.

If he had them more, I’m confident we would have gotten better results. They are aggressive high line defenders and would have suited Ange’s football. And the metric now is not would we have been back at 5th under Ange but whether we would have been better with him that what we ended up seeing this season. And on that basis I can’t believe anyone would seriously say we wouldn’t have been.

Ange will always be a split opinion. I loved the craziness, but the long ball over the top was exploited by everyone, even when Romero and VDV played. After 10 games we were sussed.

I always felt if he dropped the defensive line 10 to 15 yards then the long ball wouldn't have been as bad.

 

[Bishop]

Yeah I just don’t know whether VDV’s minutes available improved because he’s playing deeper or because we got a specialist to change his running gait over the course of the last year.

If he had them more, I’m confident we would have gotten better results. They are aggressive high line defenders and would have suited Ange’s football. And the metric now is not would we have been back at 5th under Ange but whether we would have been better with him that what we ended up seeing this season. And on that basis I can’t believe anyone would seriously say we wouldn’t have been.

I'm not really sure where you're getting this high line suiting Romero thing from. He never looked particularly comfortable in the high line and I even distinctly remember at the time the discussion was that he was unhappy with the playing style due to his body language and and tmm the numerous mistakes he made which led to all of the Athletico speculation. Again bro I think you've romanticised Ang's time and have actually forgotten the reality of the situation.

Romero is no more suited to a high line than he is a deep one in fact the best performances and results in his career so far (Atalanta period, Argentina World Cup Win, even our EL Final win) have all been in a mid block or low block not a high sat on the halfway line. A situation he doesn't even have the pace to recovery from and arguably the attention span for.

Ange will always be a split opinion. I loved the craziness, but the long ball over the top was exploited by everyone, even when Romero and VDV played. After 10 games we were sussed.

I always felt if he dropped the defensive line 10 to 15 yards then the long ball wouldn't have been as bad.

I'd argue that's all he needed to do but I think the high line came as part of the package for his football. Given our relatively poor capability on the ball, we needed the numbers to swarm and overwhelm the opposition and to give passing opportunities. Once Ange was settled in, he would have known that he couldn't play his way without the suicidal line, so he hedged his bets and went for it. To play a bit deeper as I would have wanted he would have needed better players all around frankly.

 

[Muttley]

For me the catalyst was not rebuilding after the CL final. That team had reached the end of its cycle. Be it with Poch, or another manager, we had to start rebuilding then. Instead we hired "win now" managers in Jose and Conte to eek out every last drop of that squad. I can see how tempting that was, given the pressure to finally win a trophy, but ultimately it was the wrong decision.

Not for me. Agree with the concept, but the problem started way earlier. I see the summer of 2017 as when the rebuild needed to start. Let's remember that Sissoko, Trippier, Winks is who you're talking of replacing in the final team and squad. They replaced Walker, Dembele and Wanyama. They're the real guys we really struggled to replace as well as the injured Rose.

 

[parj]

And a reminder that Jose Mourinho told Levy he could 'do better with this squad' than Poch, who had spent over a year saying there was a 'painful rebuild' to be done and who had tried to refresh the squad by turning over players like Toby and Eriksen yet was rebuffed by our own board.

This is why I cannot stand Jose. He sabotaged Poch. Poch was right, the squad needed reinforcing and refreshing. But no, Jose got into Levy's head, and this for me is also when I was finally Levy out. The time to back was getting to a UCL final, seeing the team scroll secure top 4 and battle to get to UCL final despite being on a downward trajectory. It would have been a painful 12-18 months but two good players a window would have made a difference.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I'm not really sure where you're getting this high line suiting Romero thing from. He never looked particularly comfortable in the high line and I even distinctly remember at the time the discussion was that he was unhappy with the playing style due to his body language and and tmm the numerous mistakes he made which led to all of the Athletico speculation. Again bro I think you've romanticised Ang's time and have actually forgotten the reality of the situation.

Romero is no more suited to a high line than he is a deep one in fact the best performances and results in his career so far (Atalanta period, Argentina World Cup Win, even our EL Final win) have all been in a mid block or low block not a high sat on the halfway line. A situation he doesn't even have the pace to recovery from and arguably the attention span for.

I'd argue that's all he needed to do but I think the high line came as part of the package for his football. Given our relatively poor capability on the ball, we needed the numbers to swarm and overwhelm the opposition and to give passing opportunities. Once Ange was settled in, he would have known that he couldn't play his way without the suicidal line, so he hedged his bets and went for it. To play a bit deeper as I would have wanted he would have needed better players all around frankly.

I beg for the day you don’t insist I am being emotional or too in my feelings about this subject.

Romero I will grant can do well in a mid block. He can also help shut up shop when he is locked in and the team on the whole is cohesive. But as a pairing with VDV, his end of that partnership in a high line is that he goes in aggressive and stops attacks before they develop. And if something break throwing, VDV sweeps up,

The actual results under Ange when both of them played and we weren’t in the midst of an unprecedented injury crisis were good. It was sadly all too rare.