What is worse..diving or fouling?

[scaramanga]

LAW 12 - FOULS AND MISCONDUCT

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
trips or attempts to trip an opponent
jumps at an opponent
charges an opponent
strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
pushes an opponent
tackles an opponent

The bit in bold is relevant here - very little of the contact that goes on during a match will fill any of those criteria.

 

[scaramanga]

You mean if they are already going to get a foul, the defender at least make it worth while? Like when parents tell their screaming kids to shut up or they'll really give them something to cry about? Go back and kick the player who has just daisy flopped. A bit of '99 call' mentality from the defenders' union.

Not so much, no.

I mean if, say, Ashley Young dives and wins a pen. The ref is too **** to notice/act on it and the FA are too gutless to act retrospectively.

I would support any defender in that match who then goes in shin - high for a tackle. I can't explain why that feels right, it's just where my moral compass is pointing.

 

[Jurgen the German]

The thing is, 99% of the time, when a defender touches an attacker, it puts him off (however minutely it may be) as it creates a barrier, push, trip etc causing the attacker to lose a bit of balance. And therefore, when the defender hasn't played the ball, but has yet touched an attacker, it should be a foul if we are following the letter of the law.

What really should be happening is everytime a defender puts an attacker off (however minutely), the referee should award a foul if it is advantageous to the attacking team. But since, they do not do this, players exaggerated the impact/fall (dive).

As Gutterboy said, it's a contact sport so contact in itself isn't a foul, obviously if it's excessive force or contact, then that becomes a foul. How do you get the ball from the opponent without making some sort of contact?

 

[braineclipse]

LAW 12 - FOULS AND MISCONDUCT

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
trips or attempts to trip an opponent
jumps at an opponent
charges an opponent
strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
pushes an opponent
tackles an opponent

I don't read this as "when the defender hasn't played the ball, but has yet touched an attacker, it should be a foul if we are following the letter of the law."

shoulder charging is legitimate depending on the possession of the ball. ie. you cannot just charge at any opponent. that is a foul.

you highlight vertonghen as a defender who is "clever cynical defender who uses all the tools available to him". the same can be said of ashley young and suarez. so to criticize the likes of suarez when praising vertonghen is massively hypocritical.

"football is a contact sport" - whether that is true or not is irrelevant. The fact is, you cannot keep giving opponents little pushes/kicks/niggles.

Well, to some extent you can. You think it shouldn't be like that, but that hardly makes it a fact.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It really really isn't mate, in certain situations that's exactly what you need to do to avoid an injury, but that was done for about 50 pages in the Gareth Bale thread last year, i've no interest in explaining it all again, just as i'm sure you've no interest in hearing it.:lol:

Don't agree but fair enough.

 

[Jurgen the German]

shoulder charging is legitimate depending on the possession of the ball. ie. you cannot just charge at any opponent. that is a foul.

you highlight vertonghen as a defender who is "clever cynical defender who uses all the tools available to him". the same can be said of ashley young and suarez. so to criticize the likes of suarez when praising vertonghen is massively hypocritical.

"football is a contact sport" - whether that is true or not is irrelevant. The fact is, you cannot keep giving opponents little pushes/kicks/niggles.

Well yes if you continue to push/pull the shirt of the opponent then that becomes persistent fouling and therefore should be a free kick. But surely you're not suggesting that if Vertonghen was to slightly push Suarez once tomorrow in a 50/50 then that is a foul?

 

[Jurgen the German]

For shirt pulling there is a continuum. On the lowest level of the scale there's contact that's either allowed by the letter or the law or by the current interpretations of the law. No player or fan realistically expects a free kick or a penalty for a small shirt tug. You might disagree that this shouldn't be the interpretations of the law, but this is the reality and obviously defenders will try to take advantage.

On the other end of the scale there's the blatant foul. Cynical, but to me not cheating. As a sidenote I didn't think the Suarez infamous handball was particularly bad either. It's cynical, obvious, punishable by the referees.

In between there is the cheating, but there are shades of grey.

For diving there's no real continuum. There's no cynical, but not trying to cheat kind of dive. There's no "diving just a little, within the regulations".

In addition to that for a shirt pull I think "at worst" you deny an opponent a clear goalscoring opportunity, of course that's bad, but compared to diving it's not as unfair. A diver might, in addition to gaining a clear goalscoring opportunity with a penalty, get an opponent sent off or booked. An added injustice on top of the penalty/goalscoring chance. I think that makes both players and fans understandably upset.

So yes, I do think it's more devious and sneaky, although I accept that to some extent it's a cultural thing.

Me neither. It was cynical cheating of course, but I'm sure most England fans would have applauded Wayne Rooney if he did the same next summer and England got through to the next stage because of it. Diving to me is worse as you're not only trying to con the ref into giving a free kick, but you're trying to get the other player booked too.

 

[Neymar]

The bit in bold is relevant here - very little of the contact that goes on during a match will fill any of those criteria.

Yes, and you have highlighted it. by the letter of the law, there is a foul almost every instance.
the interesting thing is, the rules of football have stayed very constant over the past 50 years or so. however, we are constantly moving towards a more accurate and literal application of the rules, and i wouldnt be surprised if football becomes a basically non-contact sport in 20 years or so.

if you look at the barcelona team now, the only reason they can play in the way they do is because the rules are now being followed more closely than ever before.

As Gutterboy said, it's a contact sport so contact in itself isn't a foul, obviously if it's excessive force or contact, then that becomes a foul. How do you get the ball from the opponent without making some sort of contact?

again, if we are following the rules, you cannot hit the opponent before gaining control of the ball.

I don't read this as "when the defender hasn't played the ball, but has yet touched an attacker, it should be a foul if we are following the letter of the law."

Well, to some extent you can. You think it shouldn't be like that, but that hardly makes it a fact.

if that "touch" impedes the attacker, it quite obviously means that it is a foul. and in most cases, that "touch" does impede the attacker

and no you cant to any extent. nowhere in the rules does it say you can push, kick, niggle opponents just a little bit.

Well yes if you continue to push/pull the shirt of the opponent then that becomes persistent fouling and therefore should be a free kick. But surely you're not suggesting that if Vertonghen was to slightly push Suarez once tomorrow in a 50/50 then that is a foul?

yes that is exactly what i am saying. you cannot go slightly pushing people around

 

[Jurgen the German]

Yes, and you have highlighted it. by the letter of the law, there is a foul almost every instance.
the interesting thing is, the rules of football have stayed very constant over the past 50 years or so. however, we are constantly moving towards a more accurate and literal application of the rules, and i wouldnt be surprised if football becomes a basically non-contact sport in 20 years or so.

if you look at the barcelona team now, the only reason they can play in the way they do is because the rules are now being followed more closely than ever before.


again, if we are following the rules, you cannot hit the opponent before gaining control of the ball.



if that "touch" impedes the attacker, it quite obviously means that it is a foul. and in most cases, that "touch" does impede the attacker

and no you cant to any extent. nowhere in the rules does it say you can push, kick, niggle opponents just a little bit.



yes that is exactly what i am saying. you cannot go slightly pushing people around

Football would be a complete joke if fouls were given everytime there was contact.

 

[scaramanga]

Yes, and you have highlighted it. by the letter of the law, there is a foul almost every instance.

I'm not sure which bit of that you're misreading, but it states (quite clearly) "careless, reckless or with excessive force" so obviously most contact won't be a foul. Very few moments of contact on a pitch will be "careless, reckless or with excessive force" so the complete opposite of what you have suggested is true. It's right there spelled out for you.

 

[Neymar]

I'm not sure which bit of that you're misreading, but it states (quite clearly) "careless, reckless or with excessive force" so obviously most contact won't be a foul. Very few moments of contact on a pitch will be "careless, reckless or with excessive force" so the complete opposite of what you have suggested is true. It's right there spelled out for you.

it's careless to kick keep giving an opponent minor niggles/bumps/niggles/kicks/pushes, no?

 

[Neymar]

Football would be a complete joke if fouls were given everytime there was contact.

maybe that is the case in many people's opinions, but if you ask any old time player, they think football is a joke now. As do most fans aged over 40 or so.
and no doubt you will be talking of the good old days of the 2010's when we are in 2030 or so.

 

[Baleforce]

maybe that is the case in many people's opinions, but if you ask any old time player, they think football is a joke now. As do most fans aged over 40 or so.
and no doubt you will be talking of the good old days of the 2010's when we are in 2030 or so.

definitely, I think it's changing for the better though

 

[scaramanga]

it's careless to kick keep giving an opponent minor niggles/bumps/niggles/kicks/pushes, no?

Not if it's intentional.

 

[Neymar]

definitely, I think it's changing for the better though

i agree.

i hate how all the pundits talk about how football used to be a "man's" game, and glorify stuff that can only be described as an "assault". football is a game for children, girls and women. to say it is a man's game is just outright sexist.
also, following the rules to the letter will help to standardise refereeing decisions and thus have consistency throughout the world.

 

[Neymar]

Not if it's intentional.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate please

 

[scaramanga]

I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate please

Something that's measured and intentional cannot, by definition, be careless.

 

[Jurgen the German]

definitely, I think it's changing for the better though

Depends how you look at it, they are trying to protect the likes of Messi and Ronaldo from getting seriously injured and missing big games like Champions League finals or World Cup finals so in that sense it's a good thing they're trying to protect players, but I think it's going to far the other way, tackling is an art form and is in danger of being outlawed.

 

[Baleforce]

you can make a great tackle without making any contact

 

[Neymar]

Something that's measured and intentional cannot, by definition, be careless.

in which case, its a foul then.