Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[billyiddo]

Not sure i agree with the idea that managers are powerless to effect their players performances

 

[Bishop]

It's all become very simple hasn't it.

Changing the manager is not going to stop Vic being as issue at corners, Romero switching off or becoming a card magnet, he can't heal vdv hammies any more than he can speed up the development of gray and Bergvall to where we hope they are going to be.
Just like he can't turn the clock back to son in his heyday a new manager isn't going to be able to change Maddison's habit of disappearing for large chunks of the season.

And keeping ange isn't going to do any of that either.

We're a mess (mainly of our making), but we are a mess with a route and a plan, it's a medium to long term plan, it's not going to be smooth regardless of the manager.

I've all but checked out of the debate, it's pointless, the club will do what they feel needs to be done, nothing we can do about it, why stress about it, I may not like their solution but I'll still support the badge.

I do think it comes down to the calibre of player we have. If we back Ange and give him the quantity and quality of player he needs I think he has the system for success, but it does come down to that for me. Are we going to be able to give him the tools necessary?

If that's the intention then stick with him during the growing pains period (unless of course the worst happens) and see what he can do, but we have to be very serious about the incomings.

 

[veryoldspur]

It's all become very simple hasn't it.

Changing the manager is not going to stop Vic being as issue at corners, Romero switching off or becoming a card magnet, he can't heal vdv hammies any more than he can speed up the development of gray and Bergvall to where we hope they are going to be.
Just like he can't turn the clock back to son in his heyday a new manager isn't going to be able to change Maddison's habit of disappearing for large chunks of the season.

And keeping ange isn't going to do any of that either.

We're a mess (mainly of our making), but we are a mess with a route and a plan, it's a medium to long term plan, it's not going to be smooth regardless of the manager.

I've all but checked out of the debate, it's pointless, the club will do what they feel needs to be done, nothing we can do about it, why stress about it, I may not like their solution but I'll still support the badge.

Your argument therefore says with the same players a new manager won't make a difference, but we all know a new manager can make a massive difference. I accept that with this squad and our owners we won't win anything, but I believe we can do a lot better. Even with our injuries (which Ange has a lot to do with) we should still be top six, but we are 14th, and after this weekend possibly even 15th. It should be evident to anyone that Ange isn't up to a job at this level, so we may as well sack him and move on ASAP. On a side note, I find him him stubborn, arrogant, and very rude.

 

[veryoldspur]

I do think it comes down to the calibre of player we have. If we back Ange and give him the quantity and quality of player he needs I think he has the system for success, but it does come down to that for me. Are we going to be able to give him the tools necessary?

If that's the intention then stick with him during the growing pains period (unless of course the worst happens) and see what he can do, but we have to be very serious about the incomings.

Ange would need a squad bigger than Chelsea, and of a similar quality to achieve anything, and we all know that simply won't happen. I also believe that he is tactically inept. No other manager at this level has similar tactics, so it may be asking yourself why

 

[veryoldspur]

Not sure i agree with the idea that managers are powerless to effect their players performances

I just gave a similar reply. If it were just down to the quality of players we wouldn't need managers at all.

 

[NickTB]

Spammers doing us no favours, down to 15th

 

[Baleforce]

Spammers doing us no favours, down to 15th

Their fans cheered the Palace goals and sang about hating us apparently.

 

[billyiddo]

No-one finds the levels of performance acceptable.

The discussion is whether the long-term destination is worth the pain we're in the middle of, whether this manager is the man to continue leading us towards that destination or whether there is someone else who can do a better job in these circumstances, whether this manager will show that he is the right man when the current circumstances regarding injuries and fatigue are not nearly as much of an issue, whether Levy is actually going to stick with the long-term destination plan or not, and how long we hold our nerve before saying enough is enough and making a managerial change regardless of the future and plans.

I don't think there's a single person who find the results (and by proxy) performances acceptable, but there are a few (myself included) who are looking to apply all possible contexts to where we find ourselves.

On one of the recent pods I'm sure i heard you say that Ange was doing a phenomenal job, or some other other superlative implying a very good/great job.

 

[thfcsteff]

On one of the recent pods I'm sure i heard you say that Ange was doing a phenomenal job, or some other other superlative implying a very good/great job.

Mate.

First off, feel free to name me when posting. It's all good. We've known each other in these parts a long time.

To answer, I'm sure you did and I personally believe he has been. But it is a dialectic.
I believe Ange has been doing a great job rebuilding our club and philosophies AND I an unhappy and dissatisfied with the run of results we're on. I can explain again if you want mate, but I have offered plenty of context previously.

 

[harr1984]

No-one finds the levels of performance acceptable.

The discussion is whether the long-term destination is worth the pain we're in the middle of, whether this manager is the man to continue leading us towards that destination or whether there is someone else who can do a better job in these circumstances, whether this manager will show that he is the right man when the current circumstances regarding injuries and fatigue are not nearly as much of an issue, whether Levy is actually going to stick with the long-term destination plan or not, and how long we hold our nerve before saying enough is enough and making a managerial change regardless of the future and plans.

I don't think there's a single person who find the results (and by proxy) performances acceptable, but there are a few (myself included) who are looking to apply all possible contexts to where we find ourselves.

Agree totally Steff, and the thing is there can be no right/wrong answer at this stage. If you want Ange out fair enough, results haven't been good for a while. My gut still says long term he can be the guy, but wouldn't try and shout down anyone who thinks otherwise. As long as we continue with the recruitment philosophy we have I think we will be ok either way, but just for once I'd like to see us stick with the guy we originally bet on rather than change for the umpteenth time. Things change very quickly in football, let's see how we do in the cups at least.....

 

[thfcsteff]

Agree totally Steff, and the thing is there can be no right/wrong answer at this stage. If you want Ange out fair enough, results haven't been good for a while. My gut still says long term he can be the guy, but wouldn't try and shout down anyone who thinks otherwise. As long as we continue with the recruitment philosophy we have I think we will be ok either way, but just for once I'd like to see us stick with the guy we originally bet on rather than change for the umpteenth time. Things change very quickly in football, let's see how we do in the cups at least.....

I agree. I also think there's going to be more pain.

Truthfully, this whole problem has been in the making for years. Poch flagged it, people ignored him because they took what he was doing for granted and what he was seeing and commenting on as signs he was 'losing the plot'...then we had two Billy Big Bolox managers swan in and basically configure teams around one (in Conte's case two) players, one of whom is a generational talent, the other of enormous class. To be fair we did not exactly give them the sorts of players they're used to buying.

So when I see the blame solely laid at Postecoglu's feet, I laugh and grimmace TBH.
Do I want more from him and better results? Yes! We all do! Is there context? Absolutely! Is Solanke's injury HIS fault? No!

Whatever happens, this period of time will always remind me of how machines can chew up decent people and throw them the voracious wolves of fandom. The machine did it to Poch and look how hard that fudged us!

Anyway...all that to say 'I agree!'

 

[harr1984]

I agree. I also think there's going to be more pain.

Truthfully, this whole problem has been in the making for years. Poch flagged it, people ignored him because they took what he was doing for granted and what he was seeing and commenting on as signs he was 'losing the plot'...then we had two Billy Big Bolox managers swan in and basically configure teams around one (in Conte's case two) players, one of whom is a generational talent, the other of enormous class. To be fair we did not exactly give them the sorts of players they're used to buying.

So when I see the blame solely laid at Postecoglu's feet, I laugh and grimmace TBH.
Do I want more from him and better results? Yes! We all do! Is there context? Absolutely! Is Solanke's injury HIS fault? No!

Whatever happens, this period of time will always remind me of how machines can chew up decent people and throw them the voracious wolves of fandom. The machine did it to Poch and look how hard that fudged us!

Anyway...all that to say 'I agree!'

Yeah, I recently held my hands up recently and admitted to not appreciating what a great job Poch had done - but I do still think he should have gone when he did, his comments and physical appearance were telling me he was done ( let's not go over that for the umpteenth time though )

The question many seem to not be contemplating is why hasn't Levy pulled the trigger? Yes it has become obvious that he wants to give the manager more time than previous, but at the end of the day he's not stupid. If Ange had lost the dressing room, he would know about it and he would be gone - there's no coming back from that. The only logical answer is that everyone is pulling in the same direction, recognise what a painful experience this is going to be and are working together as one to get through it and ensure long term there is real upside.

Ange has done great in laying some of the foundations, no matter how much some want to put him down and regardless of who reaps the long term benefits. But of course, defeat to Everton and anything but a win against Leicester and it will be getting very uncomfortable. On the flip side, things change very quickly in football - we are still in all cup competitions, and dismiss our chances all you like it would be very Spurs to come up trumps in those whilst having a terrible league season. Perhaps the league not being our main priority could benefit us winning that elusive cup who knows! Interesting times....

 

[Kompakted]

Yeah, I recently held my hands up recently and admitted to not appreciating what a great job Poch had done - but I do still think he should have gone when he did, his comments and physical appearance were telling me he was done ( let's not go over that for the umpteenth time though )

The question many seem to not be contemplating is why hasn't Levy pulled the trigger? Yes it has become obvious that he wants to give the manager more time than previous, but at the end of the day he's not stupid. If Ange had lost the dressing room, he would know about it and he would be gone - there's no coming back from that. The only logical answer is that everyone is pulling in the same direction, recognise what a painful experience this is going to be and are working together as one to get through it and ensure long term there is real upside.

Ange has done great in laying some of the foundations, no matter how much some want to put him down and regardless of who reaps the long term benefits. But of course, defeat to Everton and anything but a win against Leicester and it will be getting very uncomfortable. On the flip side, things change very quickly in football - we are still in all cup competitions, and dismiss our chances all you like it would be very Spurs to come up trumps in those whilst having a terrible league season. Perhaps the league not being our main priority could benefit us winning that elusive cup who knows! Interesting times....

There are starting to be signs coming out of the dressing room though. And Arsenal was probably the first game where I'd say the performance was questionable from some of the senior players in terms of application and following the manager's instructions. Even Ange said himself that the application wasn't good enough.

 

[Mrs Vert]

It’s difficult to find a decent sample size to make a comparison between how our first team fares compared to our backups, as just like the previous year van de Ven’s hamstrings packed up at the start of November and then our treatment room once again needed a revolving door.

We started last season so well it seemed obvious that once the injuries cleared up we’d be challenging for the title again but after 10 games of this season, with a largely fit squad at his disposal, we were still only 7th having lost 4 of those matches.

Looking at weeks 11 though to 21 of last season, when we didn’t have Europa League + Carabao Cup games to stretch our squad, compared to this I noticed that we scored and conceded almost an identical number of PL goals; although we thankfully only sank down to 12th place in the form table.

Hopefully next season our squad will have enough strength in depth to cope better with November and December.

View attachment 18533

And hopefully we alter our tactics a little and rotate to ease wiping out our entire squad with the same injuries.

 

[Mrs Vert]

And I think even crazier is that people believe it's all about how we're actually defending with these players or not. I mean, of course that's a major factor, but really, the BIGGEST loss to the team in not being able to regularly field Vic, Romero, VdV and Udogie, is that we actually lose a lot of our attacking play. We don't progress the ball as quickly or as skilfully from the back without them, and that hinders every single aspect of what we do.

And this is where I struggle a bit. With the players we have we may not be to continue to do that. And rather than adapt to that, he powers thru until we have no players left. Making Davies for example get on like he VDV is silly to me, asking Son to do things he can't etc.

Having said that, Like others have mentioned I still think we have done quite well with the haphazard defense we do have.

In the end though, Ange decisions I am struggling with

 

[billyiddo]

Mate.

First off, feel free to name me when posting. It's all good. We've known each other in these parts a long time.

To answer, I'm sure you did and I personally believe he has been. But it is a dialectic.
I believe Ange has been doing a great job rebuilding our club and philosophies AND I an unhappy and dissatisfied with the run of results we're on. I can explain again if you want mate, but I have offered plenty of context previously.

The original post wasn't directed at you Steff, if it was i would have. You responded to it hence my post about what was said on the pod as an example - I don't know whether you're over egging the praise of him in response to the overly negative views but it doesn't really match up to the relegation form that we're seeing. Yes extenuating circumstances but two things can be true at one time eg being dealt a rough hand + doing badly in testing circumstances.


I don't really see how we can judge how he is 'rebuilding our club and philosophies ' yeah, he was appointed to be the manager while this phase of the rebuild was to be actioned and he has overseen a lot of player turnover and reduction in average age, but that is a club led directive - what sets his performance in overseeing this rebuild apart from what could have been expected from any other manager? Genuinely interested to hear as I would say it's pretty unquantifiable.



Regarding the injuries, it's perfectly reasonable for people to question the manager and his methods when you have so many injuries like what we are experiencing and it's always going to be the first place you look - he's the one in charge of the players and their coaching/training day to day, he's in charge of the miles the players put in to their legs, he's in charge of our style of play in-game which has us posting high physical numbers and he's the one who came here with a reputation of seeing lots of injuries at his clubs as 'they adapt to his ways' - That's not to say it isn't just a case of rotten luck or some other reason but people are more than entitled to look at him first and foremost.

 

[Mrs Vert]

There is definitely an element of fan sentiment from people like me that Ange has made his own squad smaller than it is, and contributes to the collective injury and fatigue issues. His belief system on the game will always require a large, talented squad. He's definitely not like Poch who can work with a core 15 or 16 and get them seriously punching.

I don't think his tactics are as bad as you make out there. There is real goodness in a lot them. Some just need refining, in my opinion.

Agree....I just don't understand why he doesn't!

 

[Mrs Vert]

I do think it comes down to the calibre of player we have. If we back Ange and give him the quantity and quality of player he needs I think he has the system for success, but it does come down to that for me. Are we going to be able to give him the tools necessary?

If that's the intention then stick with him during the growing pains period (unless of course the worst happens) and see what he can do, but we have to be very serious about the incomings.

And I don't think we ever will be!!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

There are starting to be signs coming out of the dressing room though. And Arsenal was probably the first game where I'd say the performance was questionable from some of the senior players in terms of application and following the manager's instructions. Even Ange said himself that the application wasn't good enough.

I think that's part why Ange looks glum/agitated in the pressers immediately post match. There has to be a part of him, that in that moment, thinks is this the players starting not to listen or beginning to check out?. Obviously, I could just be Arsenal overpowered us and made it look like that (the best teams will do that). It could also be that we are just going to the well, one time too many.

It is the tipping point though...if you lose the dressing room... it's over. But like the club, the players are sticking in there imo.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think that's part why Ange looks glum/agitated in the pressers immediately post match. There has to be a part of him, that in that moment, thinks is this the players starting not to listen or beginning to check out?. Obviously, I could just be Arsenal overpowered us and made it look like that (the best teams will do that). It could also be that we are just going to the well, one time too many.

It is the tipping point though...if you lose the dressing room... it's over. But like the club, the players are sticking in there imo.

I think that’ll be what keeps him in a job - if the players stick with it. Some of them will be having doubts but how they apply themselves will be key.

If he loses them, he’s done because we’ll be out of the cups soon enough and, at that point, you have little to hang your hat on with Ange.

In fact, go out of the League Cup in early Feb and if we’re in a similar league position, his position will be very very tenuous.