Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Mrs Vert]

The Coventry game confirms for me that ange's strategies and tactics are sub par for some time now - since the loss to Chelsea in early November. Our pre-season performances (aside from results) were sub par.

We scored through the brilliance of individual players, but coventry was clearly the better team. Coventry got their players playing to their strengths. And this was sufficient to compete well against a team of disjointed but better players.

I am not sure who is at fault - Ange being stubborn and force-fitting a system that clearly doesn't play to the strengths of the players, or the players simply being uncertain of their roles and are unable to follow instructions.

I know that players like Son, Maddison, Johnson, Kulusevski , Bentancur like to play fast and direct football. They look happiest when everything is going with the flow. I also can see that there is little joy in playing for spurs right now. Very little communication on the pitch, even less encouragement.

I am also not confident with Ange's selection and sub choices but appreciate that injuries and his inexperience in managing a busy campaign that includes Europa might still be an issue - Celtic was poor in all their European games according to their fans.

All this to say that Spurs are in a very risky position right now with a coach that doesn't seem to be able to extract the best out of the players and the team and is blindly adhering to a few stats like possession and shots on goal. Its clear to everyone now know that we are too easy to defend against and are weak against set pieces and counter attacks - so unless Ange starts rethinking the fundamentals - system, tactics, personnel changes, player strengths, team weakness etc. I don't think we are ever going to convert all that possession into more goals and points.

Still not a time to call for his head. He can keep us at 5th this season I will advocate for him keeping his job (even without trophies) it is improvement (more games). But if we win a trophy and lose fifth with this brand of football, i think a new coach can do better with this team.

But we said that with conte and mou. I kept thinking why don't we use what we have better? Ange has somehow managed to negate Son talents?

Coupled with that and I still don't think some of our players are technically great. You can request things all you want. But if your players can't do basics then it don't matter.

 

[metalgear]

i think its levy who has his fingerprints across all the coaches. once we look good enough we stop upgrading in proven players and start to gamble with younger talents. with mou and conte you could argue they had proven themselves with teams that had some great players in a good team.

i have always been sceptical about ange's competence since he has no EPL experience and his European adventures with Celtic had been poor (according to their fans). i believe in giving him a chance and he needs to find out that angeball that he has applied in the last 6 months needed to change. my fear is that he did not learn from the 2nd half of last season, wasted pre season, and is now facing more and more games and has to take a gamble - stick with angeball now or evolve to angeball 2.0 - premier league version.

i agree we big up our players a lot. yeah but thats what you find and accept on fanboards. we do have good players but really many would be wanted by the top 4 ? we had trouble shifting our previous players and when we did, their prices to me reflected how good or in demand they were.

 

[N22]

i think its levy who has his fingerprints across all the coaches. once we look good enough we stop upgrading in proven players and start to gamble with younger talents. with mou and conte you could argue they had proven themselves with teams that had some great players in a good team.

i have always been sceptical about ange's competence since he has no EPL experience and his European adventures with Celtic had been poor (according to their fans). i believe in giving him a chance and he needs to find out that angeball that he has applied in the last 6 months needed to change. my fear is that he did not learn from the 2nd half of last season, wasted pre season, and is now facing more and more games and has to take a gamble - stick with angeball now or evolve to angeball 2.0 - premier league version.

i agree we big up our players a lot. yeah but thats what you find and accept on fanboards. we do have good players but really many would be wanted by the top 4 ? we had trouble shifting our previous players and when we did, their prices to me reflected how good or in demand they were.

Game by game, its becoming increasingly clear that his sytem is fundamentally flawed. I sense that the players themselves are not on board with it now.

What it looks like to me is that the high line and the full backs inversion is leaving us exposed, the midfielders (and the full backs) are acutely aware that loss of posession, especially in the centre means that the opponents will break immediatley into the space vacated by the full backs. This is resulting in fear of risk taking and hence the checking back, taking the safe, square pass option and slowing down any momentum we have gained.

I am very apprehensive about the Brentford game. Thoms Frank is a very astute tactician and his team put up a great fight against City in their last game.

 

[Mcfee]

Players don’t look bought in at all to me. We’re a really hard watch. It’s hard to turn a narrative like this once it’s started, but I hope we can. Felt for him in the post-match tonight; he looks shattered.

It’s easier to buy in to this system when you have the best players and you know that the opposition are less likely to hurt you if you lose the ball. Our current team doesn’t have that reassurance.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

But we said that with conte and mou. I kept thinking why don't we use what we have better? Ange has somehow managed to negate Son talents?

Coupled with that and I still don't think some of our players are technically great. You can request things all you want. But if your players can't do basics then it don't matter.

It's just my opinion but some managers rely on very strong systems while others rely on players' talent and inspiration, for lack of better words. In this regard, Conte is very similar to Postecoglou: they live and die by their system, and players have to adapt no matter what. It failed spectacularly for Conte and, so far, most are sitting on the fence on Postecoglou. From what I've seen, I think Postecoglou's system would work better if our wingers were able to beat their man, for instance, but since the system is set up that way, he won't change it because he doesn't have the required personel. It was painfully obvious with Conte, too.

When it works, this approach often creates very strong teams, at least until someone figures out a way around your system.

I'd say Mourinho's approach is very different: he does have a few features that survives from one team to another but he tweaks his formation and tactics in order to play on his players' strengths. He gave Aurier a lot of freedom, for instance, and he certainly got the best out of the Kane-Son partnership by giving them a lot of freedom on the pitch. If I remember correctly, one of the common griefs about him at the end of his tenure (aside from his... abrasive personality) was the lack of proper coaching.

These things are always considered in hindsight, anyway. Once the team falls apart for whatever reason (poor result, loss of an important player or personal issues between the manager and the players), his approach is considered as rubbish. The bottom line, for me, is that a 'system' manager will never play on a player's strengths and that's why some of the teams that enjoyed a lot success with that approach invested a lot in their youth systems (Ajax, Dynamo Kiev, Nantes...); that way, they could mould the players into what the manager needed.

Otherwise, you need a lot of money to get exactly the kind of player who fits in a specific role.

 

[DaveT316]

Game by game, its becoming increasingly clear that his sytem is fundamentally flawed. I sense that the players themselves are not on board with it now.

What it looks like to me is that the high line and the full backs inversion is leaving us exposed, the midfielders (and the full backs) are acutely aware that loss of posession, especially in the centre means that the opponents will break immediatley into the space vacated by the full backs. This is resulting in fear of risk taking and hence the checking back, taking the safe, square pass option and slowing down any momentum we have gained.

I am very apprehensive about the Brentford game. Thoms Frank is a very astute tactician and his team put up a great fight against City in their last game.

This is largely my take too. I wouldn’t say the players aren’t playing for Ange per se, but they certainly aren’t playing for the system currently, as they are scared by it and its flaws that are highlighted by the current personnel.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It’s easier to buy in to this system when you have the best players and you know that the opposition are less likely to hurt you if you lose the ball. Our current team doesn’t have that reassurance.

I’ve said many times we need better players for this system to work, specifically the forwards but I’m like a broken record now.

 

[Kompakted]

First post here.

I was very sceptical of the Postecoglu appointment. At the end of the day this is a guy who at almost 60 has winning the Scottish league with Celtic as the pinnacle of his CV.

If we are being honest, he should not have been anywhere near the running to get a job at a regular top 6 PL club.

I think his tactics are high-risk and quite one-dimensional and I compare him to AVB in that they work for teams that are very OP compared to their opposition as:
1) their XG is so much greater than their opponents that they'll win 9/10 regardless of any weaknesses in their system.
2) their opponents don't have the quality to consistently exploit the obvious weaknesses in their tactics/set up.

You translate it to the PL and in both AVB's and I fear Postecoglu's case they have an initial honeymoon period until opposition clubs quickly work out a strategy to counter what is in front of them and neither coach have a plan B.

Not only that but both AVB and Postecoglu change in demeanour v. quickly under pressure.

When he arrived many found Postecoglu "Ange" to be likeable and affable. I never bought this whole "Ange" nonsense. Sure enough, as pressure mounts he is currently coming across as moody, bristly and at times downright rude and obnoxious. The comment about winning trophies in his second season and how he reacted to the journalist in the lead up to that question was telling. It's a guy that appears totally divorced from the reality of task in hand and his relative coaching capabilities and reputation.

The players haven't "downed tools". There was actually plenty of running around against Coventry but there is clearly a massive amount of anxiety, confusion and almost desperation throughout the squad. They are clearly uptight and NOT enjoying their football. The nerves and anxiety on the pitch permeate everywhere and come from the coach on the touchline.

Coventry had 15 shots against us last night. Let that sink in. I fear the wheels are about to come off in very brutal fashion

 

[N22]

I’ve said many times we need better players for this system to work, specifically the forwards but I’m like a broken record now.

Yes, and that's why it worked in Scotland.

Celtic had (by and large) the best players in the league. And their opponents did not have the quality to exploit the inherent flaws in the system.

We have got two major problems: A system that is flawed and a manager who will not change it.

I can see Brentford beating us on Saturday. Of course, I'm hopeful that we can win but I'm not at all confident.

If we do lose, the pressure willreally be on Ange to change this. I'm not sure he can.

 

[lurker of old]

It seems that people aren't cutting Ange any slack for playing several games this season without Solanke or Richie. A fit Richie and things might have been very different this season. I just think folk are still down from the defeat in the NLD and are far too eager to jump on Ange's back. For me
the concerning issue is whether we need Madison to play well, for the team to play well. We have to hope not... Brentford is going to be tough, no doubt about it, but they are missing forwards so we have to capitalise.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But we said that with conte and mou. I kept thinking why don't we use what we have better? Ange has somehow managed to negate Son talents?

Coupled with that and I still don't think some of our players are technically great. You can request things all you want. But if your players can't do basics then it don't matter.

Son’s talent suits a team that doesn’t have the ball. I know I keep in repeating it but he isn’t a technically brilliant footballer, he is a technically brilliant finisher. That sounds mad I know because this guy is 2 footed and worked harder on his game than probably anyone, but watch his first touch and the way he passes. It’s really poor for his level. It’s why he thrives on space because he can put it in front for him to run onto and hit those world class strikes.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It seems that people aren't cutting Ange any slack for playing several games this season without Solanke or Richie. A fit Richie and things might have been very different this season. I just think folk are still down from the defeat in the NLD and are far too eager to jump on Ange's back. For me
the concerning issue is whether we need Madison to play well, for the team to play well. We have to hope not... Brentford is going to be tough, no doubt about it, but they are missing forwards so we have to capitalise.

It’s been discussed before that people are looking at the form as a whole since January which has been pretty crap. It’s also been said if the first 10 games had been in reverse and we ended last season unbeaten in 10 games then that would be understandable as the players slowly get used to the system but it’s going the wrong direction. Who is actually playing well for us at the moment? Certainly no one in the attack is and haven’t done consistently for months.

 

[Grays_1890]

Son’s talent suits a team that doesn’t have the ball. I know I keep in repeating it but he isn’t a technically brilliant footballer, he is a technically brilliant finisher. That sounds mad I know because this guy is 2 footed and worked harder on his game than probably anyone, but watch his first touch and the way he passes. It’s really poor for his level. It’s why he thrives on space because he can put it in front for him to run onto and hit those world class strikes.

I think this too, he is a specialist player more than one that adapts, ideally as in the past, like with Alli he has to play in almost a ghosting role with the ST to get in behind but in most systems playing 2 up top or having that system built around you is non existent. Jose did it because he was a fundamental manager who wanted to play almost 2 up top on counter, as you say without the ball, we also had Kane who knew the relationship

 

[glasgowspur]

It’s been discussed before that people are looking at the form as a whole since January which has been pretty crap. It’s also been said if the first 10 games had been in reverse and we ended last season unbeaten in 10 games then that would be understandable as the players slowly get used to the system but it’s going the wrong direction. Who is actually playing well for us at the moment? Certainly no one in the attack is and haven’t done consistently for months.

VDV and that's about it really.
He's the one that has the ability needed to thrive in this system, but I think more importantly he believes not only in the system but in himself.

 

[Jurgen the German]

VDV and that's about it really.
He's the one that has the ability needed to thrive in this system, but I think more importantly he believes not only in the system but in himself.

Yes we are over-reliant on his pace in order for this system to work from a defensive standpoint. I think it’s going to take more windows and a little patience with the likes of Odobert to improve the output going forward.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yes we are over-reliant on his pace in order for this system to work from a defensive standpoint. I think it’s going to take more windows and a little patience with the likes of Odobert to improve the output going forward.

Reliant yes, not sure about over reliant. Not if everyone is doing their job and playing the system.

 

[Kompakted]

Son’s talent suits a team that doesn’t have the ball. I know I keep in repeating it but he isn’t a technically brilliant footballer, he is a technically brilliant finisher. That sounds mad I know because this guy is 2 footed and worked harder on his game than probably anyone, but watch his first touch and the way he passes. It’s really poor for his level. It’s why he thrives on space because he can put it in front for him to run onto and hit those world class strikes.

Most of our players would suit a "sit deep and counter" style.

In addition to Son, Johnson, Werner, Sarr, Richarlison all would look far more comfortable attacking in behind gaps on the turnover as all of them have pace/legs and technique that is good enough in space at this level but if asked to probe a tightly packed defence in a high possession team are going to be found wanting.

Only Maddison, Kulu and Bentancur IMO have technique to consistently play the fast give and go interchange football you need in tight spaces when you're dominating possession against a deep team.

Others are inconsistent at it or jury is out on them.

 

[Legohamster]

Yeah, really hoping this is the moment it all pivots. I’ve got my doubts about him as a manager at this level, but he’s a really decent bloke…and we f ucking deserve some success!

I have no real confidence it will, we've had enough poor performances for him to do so.

Im siding on not waiting to much longer before we look at changing it.

 

[Legohamster]

But we said that with conte and mou. I kept thinking why don't we use what we have better? Ange has somehow managed to negate Son talents?

Coupled with that and I still don't think some of our players are technically great. You can request things all you want. But if your players can't do basics then it don't matter.

I don't think the squad is a title winning one, but it's better than the squad those two had and it's better than what we've been seeing results wise, which is relegation form over the period since Jan

 

[Grays_1890]

Reliant yes, not sure about over reliant. Not if everyone is doing their job and playing the system.

I think that part is key for me too

Players need to learn that its a team game and the manager is the man, I know the manager needs to command that respect BUT I think the previous culture we bred from hiring and firing was one where we almost empowered players too much, they downed tools, manager left, new one comes in, quick bounce and the same again. For me we have fresh eyes and ears and I think its key that we don't allow that culture to bed in here.