Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[metalgear]

City's situation is a little different. Their squad is/was a little over the hill and they haven't refreshed and replenished it well. Somewhat like us in 17-19. Of course they have better players in the first place so the drop off wasn't as dramatic but that's the route cause. They thinned their squad but didn't really replace the players or at least what the players who left provided. They are refilling now but it's a little too little too late in terms of this season. So yes they've been affected by injuries but it's not the injuries as a root cause. It was letting Mahrez, Sterling, De Bruyne, Rodri, Jesus, Alvarez, Cancelo, Palmer, Gundogan etc leave or get old with no real replacements.

The results were better, but the results and performances weren't good before the injury crisis.

Gungdogan ...left at peak and returned old!

 

[thfcsteff]

And how about the other players? What about Davies. Culpable for 3 of the 4 goals. Looked every part of a Championship centre half for the entire game. Trust me, there was no confidence given by Ben for his young team mates around him. He was an absolute mess. Gets a pass every week though. Sonny doesn't get a pass from some, and rightly so. He was a mess as well. Our 2 most senior players.

I notice once more the ABA'ers are finding any reason other than the manager himself to root cause the defeat. Obviously, there can be multiple root causes and we know injuries and fatigue are a huge one. However, for the time that our midfield and forward trios were on the pitch we couldn't muster a single chance, and they certainly didn't work well defensively as a unit of 6. Slight concerns on Sarr as well. He's becoming a lone wolf rather than a team cog. It's not as if those 6 players aren't quality, at least on paper.

The big concern here is still consistency with Ange's system. He seemed to imply again that the game plan wasn't what we all saw with our own eyes. He seemed to imply that it was mis-execution from the players......AGAIN. How many more times are we just going to lay it all at the players doors rather than really asking the question why an Ange tactical system is so hard to be adopted by his players? What is it about this coach and his methods that is so hard to take on board? It's not as if he's just followed a Plan A path. It's not as if we didn't have 15 quality outfield players in that squad either. Our squad is the deepest it's ever been.

Nobody expected a result at Anfield. I was hoping for a different performance though. Seriously worried about Villa now. I had that one about 50:50. It's now swung to about 75:25 in their favour in my opinion. I'll be shocked if we get a result tomorrow.

Strangely enough though, I'm still expecting Ange to complete the season.

He has protected the players time and time and time again. Not sure where you're seeing otherwise? He always says the responsibility lies with him, and ultimately, that will mean that unless he pulls a Europa rabbit out of the hat, he's going walkies in late May.

Thursday was a lose-lose (unless we hadn't LOL) IMO. If we'd gone 'full AB' and got smashed 6-3 again, he'd have been pilloried for not being able to adapt and 'sit' on a lead/protect it. For whatever reason (and I think it was a combo of fatigue and just plain freezing) we went conservartive and ended up fudging ourselves

Agree with most of that except the bit about Davies where I think you’re being a little harsh.

Even Ange’s comments after the game about “the lesson is we shouldn’t deviate from what got us here to start with” reek of “I’ve tried what everyone else wanted and look how that turned out. I know best.”

There will always be an excuse for Ange. “Not enough football”, “too much football”, “unlucky with injuries”, “hasn’t been backed” and so on and so on.

If he got sacked tomorrow, he and his supporters would claim that he was hard done by and had to deal with unprecedented circumstances.

For me, the evidence has been there for over a year now (in fact, it’s been there since even earlier if you looked beyond the results in the first 10 games). He’s just not good enough for this level.

Being 14th in the league in February is pretty much as bad as anyone can do managing Tottenham.

Ahhhhhhh Deano...the luxury of youth oozes from that statement mi amigo ;-)

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of whether one likes him/his style or not, and regardless of the terrible luck he's had with injuries.

 

[Muttley]

He has protected the players time and time and time again. Not sure where you're seeing otherwise? He always says the responsibility lies with him, and ultimately, that will mean that unless he pulls a Europa rabbit out of the hat, he's going walkies in late May.

Actually, not the point I was making. I was asking the more subtle question why Ange's players struggle to accommodate HIS tactical systems. It's the only thing that has been consistent, players struggling to slot into an Ange system and string multiple games together with execution. I'm not talking about results either. I'm talking about carrying out a game plan. The trend is Ange keep intimating in pressers that the players aren't doing it. Well it's been over 18 months now and my question is why?

If the answer is that they're the wrong players then I'm genuinely confused. We've spent hundreds of millions on players for this squad, more than any other manager in our entire history. I get the injuries and fatigue, but we had 15 fit outfield players against Pool and only 2 of them haven't been coached in this setup. I was surprised to hear Ange imply the players didn't execute.

This is why I really want Ange to get a full compliment of players again so he can be judged. At the start of this season we had it with Leicester 2nd half, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Arsenal, Brighton, Palace, Ipswich etc. There were some terrific executions as well in the games in between but then suddenly the system totally misfires. I think we saw that again on Thursday.

Let's see if whatever tactical system we choose today can be executed by the players. It won't be easy for Ange. Those 15 outfield players have become 14 and we're had one day less rest between games. Emery has his boys fresh and fired up after losing a local derby last Saturday. Ange needs to factor in fatigue in his tactical system.

 

[DeanoAustin]

He has protected the players time and time and time again. Not sure where you're seeing otherwise? He always says the responsibility lies with him, and ultimately, that will mean that unless he pulls a Europa rabbit out of the hat, he's going walkies in late May.

Thursday was a lose-lose (unless we hadn't LOL) IMO. If we'd gone 'full AB' and got smashed 6-3 again, he'd have been pilloried for not being able to adapt and 'sit' on a lead/protect it. For whatever reason (and I think it was a combo of fatigue and just plain freezing) we went conservartive and ended up fudging ourselves


Ahhhhhhh Deano...the luxury of youth oozes from that statement mi amigo ;-)

Relegation was before my time but I suffered through Shreeve in 91/92, Ossie in 93/94, Gross in 97/98 and Pleat in 03/04. But in this day and age, where the financial gulf between us and the bottom clubs is huge, it’s massive underachievement to be as low as 14th at this point.

First time I’ve been called young in a long time though Steff so you’ve gone top of my Christmas card list.

 

[El Dante]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of whether one likes him/his style or not, and regardless of the terrible luck he's had with injuries.

I think Bentancur needs others in midfield that are strong receiving the pass and can themselves pass. Instead he played alongside Sarr and Bissouma. Sarr seems to be stalling from his early potential and is a Jack of all trades without excelling at anything whilst Bissouma is far too inconsistent but regularly gifts the opposition goals through sloppy passes.

I’d sell Bissouma in the summer and Sarr can be a sub until working out what his best role is.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think the saddest aspect of Thursday's defeat was the manner.
IF we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost with our way of playing at least being seen. I appreciate I am in a minority here, but I'd have preferred another 6-3 defeat where we gave iot a go and got torn on the counter than what we got, which was a drubbing whilst stuck in neutral gear.

I am having a very hard time justifying Bentancur and Bissouma's performances beyond them maybe not being able to play two games a week. Sarr gets a pass because he is young and I believe playing hurt for the team. But yeah, I was really annoyed at Bentancur and Bissouma's balless pair of efforts out there. Seniors leading? Give me a break! Once again our main leaders were Gray and (when he came on) Bergvall. Sonny? Look, he's dying out there, it's like Monty Python and The Holy Grail, but I at least saw some effort if not product (other than'The Shot').

I have to also wonder if Ange has, indeed, lost the likes of Bentancur and Bissouma? I don't believe he has, but clearly, those two plus Sarr had absolutely no appetite for what that game needed. So that has to fall on Ange. It has to, right? He is the manager.
I was particularly tinkled off at how after Bradley's borderline cruncher on Sonny, NO-ONE showed any thunder or 'protective instinct' to put in a similar challenge on (say) Salah? They outfought us comfortably. Unacceptable. The last time I went to a game at Anfield we were 3 down in 15 minutes. We came back to 3-3, only for Lucas to give Jota an assist for an injury time Liverpool winner. That second-half, we went for it. Admittedly we had Kane on the pitch too. We played our way and fought after a fudging shambolic 15 minutes.

It really does feel that if we lose on Sunday, unless he wins the Europa, Ange will not be our manager once the season ends. He is most certainly running out of ideas, regardless of whether one likes him/his style or not, and regardless of the terrible luck he's had with injuries.

Seen this movie before.
There's a couple of senior players who at best doing the absolute minimum (when "available"), there's a couple who are on the fence and it's impacting their performance and there is a group still with the manager.
The last group is the larger, but the former carries more weight in the dressing room.
Bentancur and Bissouma are for me in the middle group.

 

[Muttley]

Seen this movie before.
There's a couple of senior players who at best doing the absolute minimum (when "available"), there's a couple who are on the fence and it's impacting their performance and there is a group still with the manager.
The last group is the larger, but the former carries more weight in the dressing room.
Bentancur and Bissouma are for me in the middle group.

So Bents and Biss are with the majority of the fans. Not making excuses for them, but they've played in different midfield tactical systems under different managers. They need to knuckle down with Ange's ways, but I can't blame them if their subconscious is telling them differently.

I still think back to the season where Biss literally put Kane in his pocket for 90 mins and then let him back out after the match. He smothered our best player and also run the game himself. What happened to that player that we then bought. In my head he had 3 MotM's against is that season including the cup.

 

[glasgowspur]

So Bents and Biss are with the majority of the fans. Not making excuses for them, but they've played in different midfield tactical systems under different managers. They need to knuckle down with Ange's ways, but I can't blame them if their subconscious is telling them differently.

I still think back to the season where Biss literally put Kane in his pocket for 90 mins and then let him back out after the match. He smothered our best player and also run the game himself. What happened to that player that we then bought. In my head he had 3 MotM's against is that season including the cup.

Honestly don't know what has happened to Bissouma, Bentancur I think injury and form has taken its toll.

 

[Bullet]

I still think back to the season where Biss literally put Kane in his pocket for 90 mins

What year/game was that? Was it this game? Do you have a link to the game?

EDIT - Aha, it was this one. Bissouma dominated a Winks Hojbjerg midfield. Strange how long ago this feels

 

[thfcsteff]

Actually, not the point I was making. I was asking the more subtle question why Ange's players struggle to accommodate HIS tactical systems. It's the only thing that has been consistent, players struggling to slot into an Ange system and string multiple games together with execution. I'm not talking about results either. I'm talking about carrying out a game plan. The trend is Ange keep intimating in pressers that the players aren't doing it. Well it's been over 18 months now and my question is why?

If the answer is that they're the wrong players then I'm genuinely confused. We've spent hundreds of millions on players for this squad, more than any other manager in our entire history. I get the injuries and fatigue, but we had 15 fit outfield players against Pool and only 2 of them haven't been coached in this setup. I was surprised to hear Ange imply the players didn't execute.

This is why I really want Ange to get a full compliment of players again so he can be judged. At the start of this season we had it with Leicester 2nd half, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Arsenal, Brighton, Palace, Ipswich etc. There were some terrific executions as well in the games in between but then suddenly the system totally misfires. I think we saw that again on Thursday.

Let's see if whatever tactical system we choose today can be executed by the players. It won't be easy for Ange. Those 15 outfield players have become 14 and we're had one day less rest between games. Emery has his boys fresh and fired up after losing a local derby last Saturday. Ange needs to factor in fatigue in his tactical system.

Do you genuinely, genuinely think Ange Postecoglu has NOT factored fatigue into his systems for the last several week? As for the squad build/balance, this is obviously a squad built for the future by the football side of the club, and Ange is the manager currently in charge of progressing that. They are a YOUNG side and a YOUNG squad.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Does’t appear so but this Ruben Peeters fella seems to be as trusted by Arne Slot as Perez is by Pochettino.

Perhaps if Postecoglou had managed to persuade a couple of his coaches to follow him from Celtic then they could’ve used that experience to keep injuries to a minimum rather than an entirely new coaching staff trying to emulate what occurred during his 2nd season in SPL.

How Liverpool plan to avoid another injury crisis – and why Ruben Peeters is key

Arne Slot's head of physical performance is one of his most trusted lieutenants and will oversee squad's fitness work

www.nytimes.com

If Arne Slot is the man to reignite Liverpool’s push for trophies, then his tried and tested lieutenant Ruben Peeters will be the assistant he cannot do without.

Peeters, a 32-year-old with a master’s degree in sports sciences from KU Leuven, was the first confirmed member of a new-look backroom team following the end of the Jurgen Klopp era this summer. Head coach Slot insisted on bringing Peeters, previously Feyenoord’s head of physical performance, with him to Anfield after years of success together in the Netherlands.

One of the main reasons Liverpool hired Slot, alongside his exciting playing style and ability to improve players, was his previous club Feyenoord’s almost magical powers when it came to preventing injuries. For three seasons, the Rotterdam side’s player availability levels were above 90 per cent, and Slot played a key role in that by listening carefully to the experts who made up one of the most successful medical and performance departments in world football.

One of those specialists was Peeters, a specialist at what is known as periodisation, who knew exactly how hard to push each individual at various points throughout a season without overloading their body. Every morning at Feyenoord, he provided Slot with a meticulous briefing on how long the group should train for and, like clockwork, the session would start and finish as suggested.

Please get him in for the love of GHod

 

[Mrs Vert]

These players need coaching.

Sarr has actually gotten worse. Biss the same. Bents the same. Is it cos they have no clue what they are doing?? Kulu is going off the cliff. Yes yes tired or whatever, but the basics are not even being done.

What and where is our midfield?

Go back to basics and this team can perform better with the 12 players we have. Everyone has regressed.

My GHod, the thought of watching this for another 16 games ......

 

[Gazza]

Please get him in for the love of GHod

Can he help with tactics as well?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Do you genuinely, genuinely think Ange Postecoglu has NOT factored fatigue into his systems for the last several week? As for the squad build/balance, this is obviously a squad built for the future by the football side of the club, and Ange is the manager currently in charge of progressing that. They are a YOUNG side and a YOUNG squad.

He undoubtedly has Steff. The full backs are not as ridiculously high as often (albeit Porro does still wander into crazy positions) and we aren’t pressing as intensely as we otherwise would. The number of games has had an impact on how we play. And I can understand people using that as mitigation for results but there are two things for me.

All through his reign, our defence has been left exposed regardless of personnel and freshness. The way we defend as a team, primarily in midfield and the full back areas, is really poor. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was watching for the first goal yesterday and Im not talking about Kinsky’s howler. You could look at Leicester’s second goal as another example but there are loads.

At what point is Ange’s performance unacceptable? Does he get a free pass because of injuries because, frankly, it would be very difficult to have done any worse since middle of December in terms of results.

Ange’s deficiencies have been exposed even more harshly because of the injury crisis (which he may have a hand in tbf) but those deficiencies are there regardless of what eleven are on the pitch.

 

[thfcsteff]

He undoubtedly has Steff. The full backs are not as ridiculously high as often (albeit Porro does still wander into crazy positions) and we aren’t pressing as intensely as we otherwise would. The number of games has had an impact on how we play. And I can understand people using that as mitigation for results but there are two things for me.

All through his reign, our defence has been left exposed regardless of personnel and freshness. The way we defend as a team, primarily in midfield and the full back areas, is really poor. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was watching for the first goal yesterday and Im not talking about Kinsky’s howler. You could look at Leicester’s second goal as another example but there are loads.

At what point is Ange’s performance unacceptable? Does he get a free pass because of injuries because, frankly, it would be very difficult to have done any worse since middle of December in terms of results.

Ange’s deficiencies have been exposed even more harshly because of the injury crisis (which he may have a hand in tbf) but those deficiencies are there regardless of what eleven are on the pitch.

It is a great question.

With regards to the second bit bolded above, I think it is now clear that in order for the style to work, we need elite players with elite rotational options. That being said, I do think that with even four other players available, we'd be in a much better place (Solanke, Romero, Udogie, Johnson being the four)...

 

[harr1984]

He undoubtedly has Steff. The full backs are not as ridiculously high as often (albeit Porro does still wander into crazy positions) and we aren’t pressing as intensely as we otherwise would. The number of games has had an impact on how we play. And I can understand people using that as mitigation for results but there are two things for me.

All through his reign, our defence has been left exposed regardless of personnel and freshness. The way we defend as a team, primarily in midfield and the full back areas, is really poor. I honestly couldn’t believe what I was watching for the first goal yesterday and Im not talking about Kinsky’s howler. You could look at Leicester’s second goal as another example but there are loads.

At what point is Ange’s performance unacceptable? Does he get a free pass because of injuries because, frankly, it would be very difficult to have done any worse since middle of December in terms of results.

Ange’s deficiencies have been exposed even more harshly because of the injury crisis (which he may have a hand in tbf) but those deficiencies are there regardless of what eleven are on the pitch.

Absolutely fair, as someone who has said for months I would want to see how we fare once our squad resembles something normal again I still completely respect and can't really argue with anyone who wants him gone. But what I will say is those who have highlighted the fact we lost to Ipswich and one or two other teams when having a less injury hit side - well yeah, this is the PL, these results still happen regardless.

But at the end of the day, any mitigating circumstances I or anyone else are happy to take into account are almost over as our playing every 3 days nightmare is pretty much over now, in the next week or two we will have a lot of players returning and of course you can't expect all these long term absentees to just come in straight away and hit the ground running - but it is very much EL or bust for Ange now, he has to get us performing in that or there is next to no chance he survives....

 

[Muttley]

Do you genuinely, genuinely think Ange Postecoglu has NOT factored fatigue into his systems for the last several week? As for the squad build/balance, this is obviously a squad built for the future by the football side of the club, and Ange is the manager currently in charge of progressing that. They are a YOUNG side and a YOUNG squad.

Not enough is the answer to that.

There are some visible things to show he has, but boy there are some other visible indicators that there aren't enough. Our midfield yesterday another classic example. There has been a lack of pragmatism on his part during this period.

One of the leading indicators is the league. 24 games and only 3 draws, equal with Saints as lowest in the league. When you're struggling, you'd expect way more draws until you can turn them into wins. We don't set up in any way to get draws in the games we can't win. There will be moments in most games where the defence isn't protected and the opposition dance through e.g. Leciester. Thinking about it, Kinsky was left one-on-one a couple of times yesterday and bailed us out. It's these moments you see the tactics just aren't right because Ange isn't adapting. There is no basic tactical strength to our setup and it isn't built in a way to protect the players through the congested fixture list.

 

[El Dante]

Not enough is the answer to that.

There are some visible things to show he has, but boy there are some other visible indicators that there aren't enough. Our midfield yesterday another classic example. There has been a lack of pragmatism on his part during this period.

One of the leading indicators is the league. 24 games and only 3 draws, equal with Saints as lowest in the league. When you're struggling, you'd expect way more draws until you can turn them into wins. We don't set up in any way to get draws in the games we can't win. There will be moments in most games where the defence isn't protected and the opposition dance through e.g. Leciester. Thinking about it, Kinsky was left one-on-one a couple of times yesterday and bailed us out. It's these moments you see the tactics just aren't right because Ange isn't adapting. There is no basic tactical strength to our setup and it isn't built in a way to protect the players through the congested fixture list.

I think it’s not all on the personnel. I think it’s how they are set up and what is asked of them. I do think that the midfield selected yesterday could have been successful had the team been set out appropriately. It wasn’t and the midfield didn’t perform as I think it ought to have and could have.

 

[spurs' magna carter]

Left with the impression he is staying on.

Everything indicates that he'll get the boot but there is a feeling that he is being given faith. The injuries are staggering, even during the best of times.

Will wait and see.