Howard Webb
Clive Wilson
theres no reason for this thread to turn into another scouser hate thread, but it has!
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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying
- Thread starter southstand1882
- Start date
Steed Train
Clive Wilson
I try to be impartial but then I realise they are all bellends
Yermiyahu
Scott Parker
There is every reason, how is it possible not to hate them? The very thought of them makes me sick to my stomach. I only have to hear the opening bars of,'Ferry cross der Mersey' and I feel a blind hatred.
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
should liverpool fans learn their lesson? didn't loads of fans without tickets crash the champions league final in greece?
Hillsborough, Heysal & Greece. I don't know if it's PC to say it or not but for fudges sake...
but scousers are all just cheeky chappies out for a good time. everyone who's been to burkenhead will surely agree 8-[
Hillsborough, Heysal & Greece. I don't know if it's PC to say it or not but for fudges sake...
but scousers are all just cheeky chappies out for a good time. everyone who's been to burkenhead will surely agree 8-[
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Hillsborough.
As I put in detail, on COYS once, years ago. 'Unfortunately' I know a lot of 'inside' about what went on that day. I guess my title speaks volumes as to why. I'll put (to some extent) what I know here, now, and then put it 'to bed'..... forever.
In its ultimate, no-one won.
Our family moved north in the late 1960's (father's job) from south London/Kent. I went to school in Sheffield in the 1970's, and have many friends from there, still. Due to that I have friends who worked for, at the time, the emergency services (fire, and police), medical profession and one actually worked for the civil engineering company who project managed the improved safety work at Hillsborough, prior to the disaster.
I went to the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, back in 1981, Spurs vs Wolves. Luckilly I was on the Hillsborough kop that day, with the Wolves fans. A colleague at work was an Owls fan, who got me a ticket. Not nice, and could have been much, much worse. Spurs were very lucky.
1989.
In 1989 I lived about 20 minutes walk from the Hillsborough ground, and actually was offered a ticket for that game, on the Leppings Lane end. A scouse workfriend offered. I declined, due to girlfriend committment. My mate survived, but he did have counselling for a year afterwards. He had a wife, and 2 young children. Moved over from Liverpool some years before.
The standard coach routes from Liverpool to Sheffield were either, M62 and then M1 south, coming off at J36 and down the A61 to Hillsborough (which was usually heavily policed). IIRC, the pubs near to the ground, on that side, were closed and this was standard procedure. This was a known issue to away fans, I'm sure.
The second route to Sheffield was the M62/(now)M60/M67 and then the A57 'Snake Pass' over the peak district. Just short of Sheffield, most incoming supporters would then take Rivelin Valley Road which went to Malin Bridge/Hillsborough. There used to be some police prescence on this incoming route, but it varied. As an alternative route, some stayed on the A57 and came into the Crosspool area of Sheffield, which was a roundabout route to the ground. I never saw police guarding this approach. What these two routes did, approaching from the west, was enter Sheffield where there were open pubs, i.e. further away from the ground. Football fans then were not stupid, and got to know this.
Regarding the latter, I know people who were in the Crosspool Tavern, and The Horse and Jockey in the Wadsley area, on that Saturday lunchtime. It was lovely weather, incidentally. It was a common opinion that hordes of Liverpool fans turned up, and were drinking up until very late, shortly before kickoff. This is not to say that all Liverpool fans were doing this. Look up the two pubs on Streetview if you wish to see them. The Horse and Jockey has a large outside frontal area, and this was packed with Liverpool fans, who were 'mobbing up'.
I believe/am told that most official coaches/ticketed fans went via the full motorway route, at the end of which there were coach parks at Owlerton, near to the ground. Unofficial ones were more inclined to go the A57 route, and of course, open pubs. I cannot verify this for certain, on that day.
It was most certainly a standard issue in the 1970's to mob up before a game, with plenty of booze. Grounds were not all seater stadia, and were nowhere near the shining cathedrals that many are now. Paying at the turnstile left them open to corruption, and mobs knew that applied pressure to the outside of a ground often led to gates being opened (especially if it was all ticket). This was a known issue by fans too.
On that day, I have friends who saw hordes of - mostly young teenage/twentysomething - Liverpool fans drinking 'till very late, and then take off quick to get to the game. Whether many were ticketless, I don't know. The timing of that, just after, co-incides with the crowd building up outside the Leppings Lane end. The rest is appalling history. The gates were opened, a compression developed inside too. Was there one death outside leading to the gate being opened? Wasn't that the CCTV VCR tape that 'went missing, covering that point'? The centre tunnel was the most direct route inside the ground, and then Peter Beardsley clipped the crossbar at that end, for Liverpool. A surge, including through the central tunnel from those incoming, then further compression and killer crush develops.
The police were not trained to deal with the situation, and thought it to be crowd trouble at first. It changed quickly, and the few bobbies there suddenly had their hands very full. Lack of training is part of the effect here, IMO, not the cause.
As for what happened on the pitch, my friend was a fireman who was on it, and told me in very great detail what he witnessed. I cannot put it on here as its too horrible. All I will say is don't believe all you hear, and don't discount either.
I have been told that prior safety work done on the ground had not received a renewed safety certificate. I cannot verify this. If true, the ground should not have been used at all, and I guess this is where lots of conspiracy/coverup theories start.
Ironically, at the time, Hillsborough was known as a safe ground, was a standard choice for semi finals in the FA Cup. It was used in the 1966 World Cup Finals too. I do remember going out that evening with the then girlfriend, and walked down to get the bus. Many parents had been arriving from Liverpool, and Langsett Road in Hillsborough was like it was covered with a moving wall of tears. Quite, quite awful!
It was all a disaster waiting to happen, IMO, at the time. The actual cause and effect are obvious. Brian Clough had the balls to say so at the time. As said elsewhere, social, cultural, geographic, economic, political and regional issues all played a part. However, in the words of my mate who went on the pitch, "I saw a body squashed flat, with exploded eyeballs", and that would be the same effect whether you were/are from Birkenhead, Leatherhead or Maidenhead.
As for Andy Burnham, currently, is he going to say anything which shoots himself in his own foot with the people he is trying to champion?
I like Liverpool and scousers. But the cause that day is clear to me.
As I put in detail, on COYS once, years ago. 'Unfortunately' I know a lot of 'inside' about what went on that day. I guess my title speaks volumes as to why. I'll put (to some extent) what I know here, now, and then put it 'to bed'..... forever.
In its ultimate, no-one won.
Our family moved north in the late 1960's (father's job) from south London/Kent. I went to school in Sheffield in the 1970's, and have many friends from there, still. Due to that I have friends who worked for, at the time, the emergency services (fire, and police), medical profession and one actually worked for the civil engineering company who project managed the improved safety work at Hillsborough, prior to the disaster.
I went to the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, back in 1981, Spurs vs Wolves. Luckilly I was on the Hillsborough kop that day, with the Wolves fans. A colleague at work was an Owls fan, who got me a ticket. Not nice, and could have been much, much worse. Spurs were very lucky.
1989.
In 1989 I lived about 20 minutes walk from the Hillsborough ground, and actually was offered a ticket for that game, on the Leppings Lane end. A scouse workfriend offered. I declined, due to girlfriend committment. My mate survived, but he did have counselling for a year afterwards. He had a wife, and 2 young children. Moved over from Liverpool some years before.
The standard coach routes from Liverpool to Sheffield were either, M62 and then M1 south, coming off at J36 and down the A61 to Hillsborough (which was usually heavily policed). IIRC, the pubs near to the ground, on that side, were closed and this was standard procedure. This was a known issue to away fans, I'm sure.
The second route to Sheffield was the M62/(now)M60/M67 and then the A57 'Snake Pass' over the peak district. Just short of Sheffield, most incoming supporters would then take Rivelin Valley Road which went to Malin Bridge/Hillsborough. There used to be some police prescence on this incoming route, but it varied. As an alternative route, some stayed on the A57 and came into the Crosspool area of Sheffield, which was a roundabout route to the ground. I never saw police guarding this approach. What these two routes did, approaching from the west, was enter Sheffield where there were open pubs, i.e. further away from the ground. Football fans then were not stupid, and got to know this.
Regarding the latter, I know people who were in the Crosspool Tavern, and The Horse and Jockey in the Wadsley area, on that Saturday lunchtime. It was lovely weather, incidentally. It was a common opinion that hordes of Liverpool fans turned up, and were drinking up until very late, shortly before kickoff. This is not to say that all Liverpool fans were doing this. Look up the two pubs on Streetview if you wish to see them. The Horse and Jockey has a large outside frontal area, and this was packed with Liverpool fans, who were 'mobbing up'.
I believe/am told that most official coaches/ticketed fans went via the full motorway route, at the end of which there were coach parks at Owlerton, near to the ground. Unofficial ones were more inclined to go the A57 route, and of course, open pubs. I cannot verify this for certain, on that day.
It was most certainly a standard issue in the 1970's to mob up before a game, with plenty of booze. Grounds were not all seater stadia, and were nowhere near the shining cathedrals that many are now. Paying at the turnstile left them open to corruption, and mobs knew that applied pressure to the outside of a ground often led to gates being opened (especially if it was all ticket). This was a known issue by fans too.
On that day, I have friends who saw hordes of - mostly young teenage/twentysomething - Liverpool fans drinking 'till very late, and then take off quick to get to the game. Whether many were ticketless, I don't know. The timing of that, just after, co-incides with the crowd building up outside the Leppings Lane end. The rest is appalling history. The gates were opened, a compression developed inside too. Was there one death outside leading to the gate being opened? Wasn't that the CCTV VCR tape that 'went missing, covering that point'? The centre tunnel was the most direct route inside the ground, and then Peter Beardsley clipped the crossbar at that end, for Liverpool. A surge, including through the central tunnel from those incoming, then further compression and killer crush develops.
The police were not trained to deal with the situation, and thought it to be crowd trouble at first. It changed quickly, and the few bobbies there suddenly had their hands very full. Lack of training is part of the effect here, IMO, not the cause.
As for what happened on the pitch, my friend was a fireman who was on it, and told me in very great detail what he witnessed. I cannot put it on here as its too horrible. All I will say is don't believe all you hear, and don't discount either.
I have been told that prior safety work done on the ground had not received a renewed safety certificate. I cannot verify this. If true, the ground should not have been used at all, and I guess this is where lots of conspiracy/coverup theories start.
Ironically, at the time, Hillsborough was known as a safe ground, was a standard choice for semi finals in the FA Cup. It was used in the 1966 World Cup Finals too. I do remember going out that evening with the then girlfriend, and walked down to get the bus. Many parents had been arriving from Liverpool, and Langsett Road in Hillsborough was like it was covered with a moving wall of tears. Quite, quite awful!
It was all a disaster waiting to happen, IMO, at the time. The actual cause and effect are obvious. Brian Clough had the balls to say so at the time. As said elsewhere, social, cultural, geographic, economic, political and regional issues all played a part. However, in the words of my mate who went on the pitch, "I saw a body squashed flat, with exploded eyeballs", and that would be the same effect whether you were/are from Birkenhead, Leatherhead or Maidenhead.
As for Andy Burnham, currently, is he going to say anything which shoots himself in his own foot with the people he is trying to champion?
I like Liverpool and scousers. But the cause that day is clear to me.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Remember they did the same thing in Greece
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/liverpool-fans-worst-in-europe-claim-uefa-690981.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/liverpool-fans-worst-in-europe-claim-uefa-690981.html
Liverpool fans 'worst in Europe' claim UEFA
UEFA intensified their argument with Liverpool over the ticket chaos at the Champions League final by leaking details yesterday of a report that brandishes the club's supporters as the worst behaved in Europe.
Michel Platini , the president of European football's governing body, will present the findings of a four-year investigation to Sports Minister Richard Caborn tomorrow and demand Liverpool are ordered to improve security checks on those who follow the club abroad.
The report, based on evidence collected by undercover police officers, details 25 disturbances involving Liverpool supporters at European away games since 2003.
However, the catalyst for the meeting between Platini and Caborn in Brussels is the Champions League final in Athens and the violence that occurred outside the Olympic Stadium on May 23.
UEFA and Liverpool have been at loggerheads over the circumstances that led to approximately 2,000 fans with tickets for the game being locked out of the stadium and tear-gassed by Greek police when they attempted to gain entry.
The Anfield club claim inadequate security, a meagre ticket allocation and the choice of an athletics venue were the principle causes of the disturbances, and had highlighted those precise concerns in a report submitted to UEFA five days before the final.
UEFA's counter-argument is that thousands of ticketless fans who rushed the gates, gained access with forged tickets or stole from genuine ticket-holders were to blame for filling the Olympic Stadium beyond capacity and leaving the Greek authorities no option but to shut the gates early.
The current stand-off could have repercussions for both sides - ticket-holder Paul Gregory has threatened to sue Platini having missed the game and been caught in a crush against the police cordon outside the stadium, while UEFA are considering a heavy punishment for the Anfield club - but the governing body has demonstrated its intent to lay the blame solely on Liverpool by releasing details of a wide-ranging investigation into the club's support.
Trouble
UEFA spokesman William Gaillard revealed: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans. That was just the latest example.
"What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children? We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there.
"We have an independent police report mentioning 25 incidents since 2003 caused by Liverpool fans away from home. That's the most of any team in Europe and these are in the report. We should all be very pleased that no one was hurt."
Perversely, Gaillard cited the good behaviour of Liverpool supporters before the European Cup final with Milan as a reason to dismiss concerns an allocation of 17,000 tickets to each finalist would invite trouble and allow the black market to flourish.
Liverpool responded to the leaked allegations last night by insisting it was an attempt by UEFA to distance itself from responsibility for the poor organisation of its showpiece event.
A club spokesman said: "The shortcomings in the management of the situation in Athens were apparent to anyone who was there and this latest statement from UEFA should not deflect attention away from that reality."
Anfield chief executive Rick Parry appealed to UEFA for a greater ticket allocation in the weeks preceding the final but was informed 29,000 tickets for the 63,000-capacity stadium were designated for its 'football family' - the catch-all phrase for sponsors, corporate guests and those who received tickets through a public ballot.
Liverpool, however, were criticised by supporters for exacerbating the problem by distributing 6,000 tickets among their own corporate clients and changing the policy of giving season-ticket holders preference for European final tickets.
Much of the Liverpool fans' anger has been directed towards UEFA and the Greek authorities, but many have also blamed the ticketless fans who forced their way inside the ground at the expense of those with tickets.
Liverpool fan Phil Hammond, whose son Philip was among the 96 Reds supporters who died at Hillsborough in 1989, said: "The people who stormed into the stadium are the scum of the earth. They put at risk hundreds of lives and they should be ashamed of themselves.
UEFA intensified their argument with Liverpool over the ticket chaos at the Champions League final by leaking details yesterday of a report that brandishes the club's supporters as the worst behaved in Europe.
Michel Platini , the president of European football's governing body, will present the findings of a four-year investigation to Sports Minister Richard Caborn tomorrow and demand Liverpool are ordered to improve security checks on those who follow the club abroad.
The report, based on evidence collected by undercover police officers, details 25 disturbances involving Liverpool supporters at European away games since 2003.
However, the catalyst for the meeting between Platini and Caborn in Brussels is the Champions League final in Athens and the violence that occurred outside the Olympic Stadium on May 23.
UEFA and Liverpool have been at loggerheads over the circumstances that led to approximately 2,000 fans with tickets for the game being locked out of the stadium and tear-gassed by Greek police when they attempted to gain entry.
The Anfield club claim inadequate security, a meagre ticket allocation and the choice of an athletics venue were the principle causes of the disturbances, and had highlighted those precise concerns in a report submitted to UEFA five days before the final.
UEFA's counter-argument is that thousands of ticketless fans who rushed the gates, gained access with forged tickets or stole from genuine ticket-holders were to blame for filling the Olympic Stadium beyond capacity and leaving the Greek authorities no option but to shut the gates early.
The current stand-off could have repercussions for both sides - ticket-holder Paul Gregory has threatened to sue Platini having missed the game and been caught in a crush against the police cordon outside the stadium, while UEFA are considering a heavy punishment for the Anfield club - but the governing body has demonstrated its intent to lay the blame solely on Liverpool by releasing details of a wide-ranging investigation into the club's support.
Trouble
UEFA spokesman William Gaillard revealed: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans. That was just the latest example.
"What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children? We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there.
"We have an independent police report mentioning 25 incidents since 2003 caused by Liverpool fans away from home. That's the most of any team in Europe and these are in the report. We should all be very pleased that no one was hurt."
Perversely, Gaillard cited the good behaviour of Liverpool supporters before the European Cup final with Milan as a reason to dismiss concerns an allocation of 17,000 tickets to each finalist would invite trouble and allow the black market to flourish.
Liverpool responded to the leaked allegations last night by insisting it was an attempt by UEFA to distance itself from responsibility for the poor organisation of its showpiece event.
A club spokesman said: "The shortcomings in the management of the situation in Athens were apparent to anyone who was there and this latest statement from UEFA should not deflect attention away from that reality."
Anfield chief executive Rick Parry appealed to UEFA for a greater ticket allocation in the weeks preceding the final but was informed 29,000 tickets for the 63,000-capacity stadium were designated for its 'football family' - the catch-all phrase for sponsors, corporate guests and those who received tickets through a public ballot.
Liverpool, however, were criticised by supporters for exacerbating the problem by distributing 6,000 tickets among their own corporate clients and changing the policy of giving season-ticket holders preference for European final tickets.
Much of the Liverpool fans' anger has been directed towards UEFA and the Greek authorities, but many have also blamed the ticketless fans who forced their way inside the ground at the expense of those with tickets.
Liverpool fan Phil Hammond, whose son Philip was among the 96 Reds supporters who died at Hillsborough in 1989, said: "The people who stormed into the stadium are the scum of the earth. They put at risk hundreds of lives and they should be ashamed of themselves.
Essex Yid
Bobby Zamora
Cheers for that info Sheffield Spur.
While I'm not a huge fan of the Scousers, I would be cautious when automatically blaming them for this. Really could have happened to any club, frankly football fans were all pretty badly behaved back then.
Out of interest what part of Sheffield did you live in? Currently a student living in Crookes myself.
While I'm not a huge fan of the Scousers, I would be cautious when automatically blaming them for this. Really could have happened to any club, frankly football fans were all pretty badly behaved back then.
Out of interest what part of Sheffield did you live in? Currently a student living in Crookes myself.
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Back in 1989, in my first house. In lower Walkley. Virtually Hillsborough. If you are in Crookes now, you are a (near) neighbour! O
I guess you are well intimate with the floor of the Ball Inn, The Cobden View, The Closed Shop, and The Hallamshire House!Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
Of course you can go down for manslaughter even if was an accident and you didn't mean it. I mean, any fool can regret yesterday. Where do you draw the line? All that has be proved for involuntary manslaughter is that there was gross negligence on the part of the accused. The people at that game that day were putting their safety in the hands of the police - little different to how you put your safety in the hands of an airline pilot/co-pilots. They have a duty of care to you and so did the police at Hillsborough. It is pretty clear they failed in that IMO.
On the notion of the ticketless fans, drunk fans and the idea that Liverpool had form - all this is dealt with in great detail in the Taylor report and is comprehensively debunked and dismissed. Here is the relevant sections on some of these points:
So the police witnesses who impressed him were the ones who didn't think there was many ticketless fans in the area and this is backed up the evidence. Then the SYP 'conspiracy' evidence amounts to about 10 games, most of which were not all ticket. Understandable, Taylor wasn't impressed.
Then on the drunkness of the fans:
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Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
Quite simply, just about any set of fans on the same day, in the same circumstances, would have found themselves in the same position. What caused it was the opening of the gates and the sending of the fans down into the already overcrowded two pens. If that hadn't happened, no one would have died. Fences or not. Ticketless fans or not. Drunk fans or not. 'Late' or not. There is no evidence to back up the idea that Liverpool was some sort of special case. Again, Taylor finds there were more ticketless fans in the Spurs end in the 81 semi. They were also not 'late' in any meaningless way and this still doesn't excuse the negligence from the police. They are meant to be responsible in these circumstances. If not, then can they ever be held to account for any mistakes that cost lives? I guarantee you, in my plane example, if the pilot screwed up as badly as the police did that day, and survived, he would have not retired on a full pension! He would serve time for it. It would be better asking why the police are so often a special case and not Liverpool fans?
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Essex Yid
Bobby Zamora
Back in 1989, in my first house. In lower Walkley. Virtually Hillsborough. If you are in Crookes now, you are a (near) neighbour! O
Oh aye, not to mention the occasional Thursday night karaoke in the Punchbowl... not sure if that would have been there in your day, seems relatively new.
Really am a big fan of the city though, got a good, friendly feel to it. Plus it's within a decent distance of a lot of good away days O
Harry_Perkins
Ben Thatcher
And later he had the good sense to retract it when he realised the evidence didn't bear out what he thought:
That was big of Clough. I wish others would join him.
johnola
Jermaine Jenas
I think the Sun should stand up and present the families accounts of what went wrong (and why) and let those in the firing line account for themselves one way or another.
How that rag survived the presentation of that story is beyond me. 96 people died, there was a complete lack of respect.
How that rag survived the presentation of that story is beyond me. 96 people died, there was a complete lack of respect.
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
I actually didn't know he retracted it. I think a lot of damage limitation exercises went on very quickly after that day. In fact, I know so. Emotions were running very high.
I don't believe conclusions from reports. I believe what close friends saw on the day. I put what they saw.
Good read earlier Sheffield Spur. I think we can all gather what Liverpool fans are and their actions that day...
Its all to easy to blame the authorities when things go wrong, yet these so called supporters fail to look at their responsibilities towards their fellow scousers
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Hallelujah! The words of common sense.....
A sudden influx of fans at the Leppings Lane end, arriving late, caused the problem in the first place. It built up quickly. If they hadn't done it, it wouldn't have happened. Its that simple. Many had been drinking. Thats a fact. Its not a crime, but it was ridiculous to leave it so late to leave the boozer. How many were ticketless... I don't know. Drink was said not to play a big part??? How is that made out? The poor devils at the front of Leppings Lane were the ones who died, and it was they who got in, in good order. Alcohol tests on any bodies probably didn't show much in evidence with these. It was the latecomers at the back who had been drinking, and they survived. How many of them were breathalysed/analysed after the event, especially considering the huge chaos. If they had have been, maybe a different picture would have emerged?
The police were guilty (IMHO of couse) of failing to deal with the situation, which I guess you could argue, made it much worse and added to the death toll. Being untrained in this situation helped nought. Did they have enough manpower on the spot? No shock-event planning. How can they be held responsible for latecoming large numbers (done deliberately?). And some fans most certainly had quite a bit to drink. Dukinfield, the chief copper in charge on the ground, had no experience of this type of situation, and IIRC, never been in charge at a football ground(?). I think he had given the order to open the gates (had a fan already died outside?); really, he was between a rock and a hard place. He couldn't win either way. Open it, or leave it closed? Dukinfield got a lot of blame and was put out to graze afterwards. Was he made a spacegoat?
Of possible interest, a friend outside the Horse and Jockey in Wadsley saw a load of Liverpool fans depart (I think it was about 2.50pm, and a reasonable walk to the ground). He said he remarked to them that they would have to hurry. They left carrying full beer glasses to drink on the way. Some with two each. He said that there had been comments from them about being ticketless. The friend was stone cold sober, no axe to grind and he isn't even a football fan. He asked one fan how they would get in without a ticket. The response was "no problem!"
In The Crosspool Tavern, Crosspool, friends in there saw many Liverpool fans leaving very late to get to the game. This wasn't a walk. It was still a drive to the ground!
The 1970's/1980's fan, with some anyway, of many clubs, used standing area entrances to get in without tickets. Sometimes bent turnstile operators took money for their own pocket and let in ticketless fans. Other times gates were opened to avoid a crush. All standing inside meant easy anominity if you didn't have a ticket. With seats, in a sell-out, it was rather different. I'm sure that the 1981 crush in Hillsborough was due to some tickless fans. No doubt. This wasn't just confined to Liverpool fans, I'm sure.
I spent a long time - that afternoon and evening - trying to ring my scouse workmate who had been on Leppings Lane. Thankfully, he was OK.....but mentally scarred. He suffered from flashbacks for some time, and was prone to break down crying very suddenly. Of interest, he didn't blame the police.
Howard Webb
Clive Wilson
lovely posts sheffield spur.
In my view, the cover up implies a couple of things. If the Police had already decided there were too many fans and simply decided to alter their version of events by deleting CCTV and intimidating polcie officers who were there to alter their testimony ( as is documented widely ), they had already basically admitted defeat and then lied about it. This is criminal and nobody can deny it now, not honestly. Wether those tapes which went AWOL contained anything incriminating is beside the point, they tampered and harrased the crime scene.
The cover up also implies that they simply did have no idea how to manage crowd surges. We know for a fact ( even if the testimonys were changed and unreliable ) that the use of pens and gates were poor ways to manage a situation and this was in full compliance with the clubs in the leagues. At the time football was seen as a national disease by authorities and is widely frowned upon from the top down. So when Ken Bates installed electric fences at the Bridge to contain fighting fans, it wasnt for their own saftey as it is widley held to do so now. It was because the clubs had as much contempt for the unruly fans as the police did. So a perfect storm occurred, a massive culmination of negligence, contempt, alcohol and simple over excitement. Now, the 96 fans who died as some in this thread have condemned as all alike - they have been treated with contempt for the best part of 20 years and only now are we finally getting to the real details of what went on that day. What I want to see is the truth to come out, for the sake of those who died. The suggestion by some in here is that some DESERVED to die by the virtue of being a supporter of Liverpool, a feeling which some sections still hold strong to.
The fact that it could have been us is a strong point, because by us, we mean any football supporter. The argument of 'them' v 'us' is the same argument which contaminates to this day. We are all football fans and we deserve to be treated better than to be herded like animals regardless of wether we are 'good' or 'bad' supporters of teams we approve of. What the report did decide afterwards is that we have to distinguish between good and bad fans, so everyone is treated properly and equally, something which the Police failed to do - they just treated everyone like worthless dogs, and let them go to their deaths before lying about it for the best part of their lives. The watershed report sadly makes the point that police and clubs have a duty of care, at the cost of nearly 100 lives. We have paid the price by dismantling the stadiums in their classic, atmospheric form and now the truth is coming out we can move forward, in muted crowds and family environments.
And I do wish people would stop banging on about thier hatred of Liverpudlians. Some of them are my greatest friends, not all are alike. In fact, we could look alot closer to home before dismissing an entire region of the country as worthy of being crushed to death by a few drunk macarons on the lash. Ive lived all over this country and people are the same, identical everywhere. Some nice, some arseholes, some kind, some nasty. But we settle it on the pitch. Or on the forums!
Rest in Peace, Liverpool 96. YNWA
(side note - we used to sing YNWA at the Lane ).
In my view, the cover up implies a couple of things. If the Police had already decided there were too many fans and simply decided to alter their version of events by deleting CCTV and intimidating polcie officers who were there to alter their testimony ( as is documented widely ), they had already basically admitted defeat and then lied about it. This is criminal and nobody can deny it now, not honestly. Wether those tapes which went AWOL contained anything incriminating is beside the point, they tampered and harrased the crime scene.
The cover up also implies that they simply did have no idea how to manage crowd surges. We know for a fact ( even if the testimonys were changed and unreliable ) that the use of pens and gates were poor ways to manage a situation and this was in full compliance with the clubs in the leagues. At the time football was seen as a national disease by authorities and is widely frowned upon from the top down. So when Ken Bates installed electric fences at the Bridge to contain fighting fans, it wasnt for their own saftey as it is widley held to do so now. It was because the clubs had as much contempt for the unruly fans as the police did. So a perfect storm occurred, a massive culmination of negligence, contempt, alcohol and simple over excitement. Now, the 96 fans who died as some in this thread have condemned as all alike - they have been treated with contempt for the best part of 20 years and only now are we finally getting to the real details of what went on that day. What I want to see is the truth to come out, for the sake of those who died. The suggestion by some in here is that some DESERVED to die by the virtue of being a supporter of Liverpool, a feeling which some sections still hold strong to.
The fact that it could have been us is a strong point, because by us, we mean any football supporter. The argument of 'them' v 'us' is the same argument which contaminates to this day. We are all football fans and we deserve to be treated better than to be herded like animals regardless of wether we are 'good' or 'bad' supporters of teams we approve of. What the report did decide afterwards is that we have to distinguish between good and bad fans, so everyone is treated properly and equally, something which the Police failed to do - they just treated everyone like worthless dogs, and let them go to their deaths before lying about it for the best part of their lives. The watershed report sadly makes the point that police and clubs have a duty of care, at the cost of nearly 100 lives. We have paid the price by dismantling the stadiums in their classic, atmospheric form and now the truth is coming out we can move forward, in muted crowds and family environments.
And I do wish people would stop banging on about thier hatred of Liverpudlians. Some of them are my greatest friends, not all are alike. In fact, we could look alot closer to home before dismissing an entire region of the country as worthy of being crushed to death by a few drunk macarons on the lash. Ive lived all over this country and people are the same, identical everywhere. Some nice, some arseholes, some kind, some nasty. But we settle it on the pitch. Or on the forums!
Rest in Peace, Liverpool 96. YNWA
(side note - we used to sing YNWA at the Lane ).