VAR: Sponsored by Chelsea

[ricky2tricky4city]

flag is immediate - I look over as soon as a goal is scored for that indication.

Thats enough to lose that moment.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Thats enough to lose that moment.

not for me its part of that moment.

 

[jts1882]

Anyone seen the mess the African confederation have made about a team walking off because VAR was not available? Makes the FA, UEFA and FIFA look functional.

^The match in question is to be replayed.

Absurd. A team who refuse to finish a match based on a referee decision* have to be punished, not favoured. Now they have effectively condoned walking off as a tactic.

*Walking of due to racist taunts is another matter.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Thing is, there is already something that can cut short your wild celebrations....the linesman flag, it is effectively doing the same thing you suggest VAR is doing.

So although there are more rules that VAR will stick it's nose into, it not a brand new dynamic.

But there is a difference and it's a significant one. Previously in the majority of cases we saw the lino's flag being raised either before the ball flew into the net or pretty much simultaneously, so you mostly already knew the goal would be disallowed. Yes there were also occasions when the offside decision came late, but that was relatively infrequent.

Now we have to wait EVERY TIME a goal is scored, because it could be disallowed for a whole raft of different reasons. So we have to be proactive in holding back until the VAR's decision comes through.

Now that may not bother some, but for me we have lost something very special, that magic moment immediately a goal is scored. It's all very well arguing that it will still come once the goal is given but the damage has already been done, it's no longer the same, the instant spontaneity is lost.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

But there is a difference and it's a significant one. Previously in the majority of cases we saw the lino's flag being raised either before the ball flew into the net or pretty much simultaneously, so you mostly already knew the goal would be disallowed. Yes there were also occasions when the offside decision came late, but that was relatively infrequent.

Now we have to wait EVERY TIME a goal is scored, because it could be disallowed for a whole raft of different reasons. So we have to be proactive in holding back until the VAR's decision comes through.

Now that may not bother some, but for me we have lost something very special, that magic moment immediately a goal is scored. It's all very well arguing that it will still come once the goal is given but the damage has already been done, it's no longer the same, the instant spontaneity is lost.

I agree with all that. My point was that 'premature celebration' was not 100% a new phenomenon.

And us students of the game are probably on top of potential offsides in the build up, so the cautionary glance to the linesman is a given...but I think many don't fall into that category (too tinkled, busy moaning, busy on their phones etc)

 

[spurspinter1]

But there is a difference and it's a significant one. Previously in the majority of cases we saw the lino's flag being raised either before the ball flew into the net or pretty much simultaneously, so you mostly already knew the goal would be disallowed. Yes there were also occasions when the offside decision came late, but that was relatively infrequent.

Now we have to wait EVERY TIME a goal is scored, because it could be disallowed for a whole raft of different reasons. So we have to be proactive in holding back until the VAR's decision comes through.

Now that may not bother some, but for me we have lost something very special, that magic moment immediately a goal is scored. It's all very well arguing that it will still come once the goal is given but the damage has already been done, it's no longer the same, the instant spontaneity is lost.

When you mention a whole raft of reasons for a goal being disallowed I do get what you mean but isn't the idea that the players will be more culpable for their actions and therefore will be less likely to commit fouls that will end up cancelling out goals?

Callum Wilson's against the Netherlands is a great example for me. I don't think anyone can argue that pulling a player down the ground by their arm isn't a foul and as such meant that the goal should have been disallowed. Wilson can then come out and talk about VAR ruining the magic all day long but also he has to then consider that things that he previously may have gotten away with will no longer work; I didn't read the whole interview and maybe he was honest about his culpability in the incident, maybe he wasn't but you'd hope it's a learning experience for him.

There's so much going on at one time on a pitch that it's unreasonable to expect the ref to be able to deal with it all and whilst the introduction of technology will be a teething process shining light on grey areas of the rules and initially producing unusual occurrences ie 5 pens in the same game for defenders pulling shirts in the box. Imagine if VAR had been in place specifically following the absolute rats of the game, two names in the hat for example being Suarez and Pepe, I think it would've had a huge impact on the way these kind of characters play the game as the abhorrent behavior displayed if missed by the ref would be punished. That's the hope anyway, as naive as it may be.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

But there is a difference and it's a significant one. Previously in the majority of cases we saw the lino's flag being raised either before the ball flew into the net or pretty much simultaneously, so you mostly already knew the goal would be disallowed. Yes there were also occasions when the offside decision came late, but that was relatively infrequent.

Now we have to wait EVERY TIME a goal is scored, because it could be disallowed for a whole raft of different reasons. So we have to be proactive in holding back until the VAR's decision comes through.

Now that may not bother some, but for me we have lost something very special, that magic moment immediately a goal is scored. It's all very well arguing that it will still come once the goal is given but the damage has already been done, it's no longer the same, the instant spontaneity is lost.

I’d have thought it would be hard to break that spontaneity of celebrating as soon as a goal is scored, especially as most goals probably won’t have an obvious delay for a VAR review.
Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Baleforce]

Good point @spurspinter1

Players are still playing dumb, they still think they can get away with something, once VAR is bedded in and infractions are treated uniformly players will be more considerate in their actions.

The flip side of that is that when a player decides the best course of action is a foul and a red card they are going to make sure they get their money’s worth.

 

[Spur of the moment]

When you mention a whole raft of reasons for a goal being disallowed I do get what you mean but isn't the idea that the players will be more culpable for their actions and therefore will be less likely to commit fouls that will end up cancelling out goals?

Callum Wilson's against the Netherlands is a great example for me. I don't think anyone can argue that pulling a player down the ground by their arm isn't a foul and as such meant that the goal should have been disallowed. Wilson can then come out and talk about VAR ruining the magic all day long but also he has to then consider that things that he previously may have gotten away with will no longer work; I didn't read the whole interview and maybe he was honest about his culpability in the incident, maybe he wasn't but you'd hope it's a learning experience for him.

There's so much going on at one time on a pitch that it's unreasonable to expect the ref to be able to deal with it all and whilst the introduction of technology will be a teething process shining light on grey areas of the rules and initially producing unusual occurrences ie 5 pens in the same game for defenders pulling shirts in the box. Imagine if VAR had been in place specifically following the absolute rats of the game, two names in the hat for example being Suarez and Pepe, I think it would've had a huge impact on the way these kind of characters play the game as the abhorrent behavior displayed if missed by the ref would be punished. That's the hope anyway, as naive as it may be.

And I agree with all of that too. There are certainly many potential advantages to the VAR, not least a reduction in the number of sneaky fouls in the build up to a goal. I'd already acknowledged previously it cuts both ways, hence the reason we made it to the CL final.

So the question is whether such gains will outweigh the huge loss of that precious moment, the spontaneous explosion of elation immediately a goal is scored.

For some, clearly it is, for others, maybe not.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

And I agree with all of that too. There are certainly many potential advantages to the VAR, not least a reduction in the number of sneaky fouls in the build up to a goal. I'd already acknowledged previously it cuts both ways, hence the reason we made it to the CL final.

So the question is whether such gains will outweigh the huge loss of that precious moment, the spontaneous explosion of elation immediately a goal is scored.

For some, clearly it is, for others, maybe not.

Maybe we need conditioning, just to lose our sh.it when we score a goal regardless and if VAR pops up and changes the decision...so be it.

And hopefully VAR will get better, more seamless, more in the background, and I pray, quicker.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I am torn. As I want both. The magic moment when a goal is scored but also I don't want to be done over by tinkle poor refereeing.

My whole Amsterdam adventure, a lifelong memory, a goal that makes me well up everytime I see it...would never of happened without VAR?

 

[Lemonade Money]

I am torn. As I want both. The magic moment when a goal is scored but also I don't want to be done over by tinkle poor refereeing.

My whole Amsterdam adventure, a lifelong memory, a goal that makes me well up everytime I see it...would never of happened without VAR?

Not to mention the despair and Joy when the Aguero goal was dismissed, can't remember any feelings stronger than that pre VAR. Not saying VAR makes moments better, just that I'm not sure we won't still get those moments.

 

[Grays_1890]

It still needs huge tweaking on how it is used in my opinion.

 

[Grays_1890]

There's so much going on at one time on a pitch that it's unreasonable to expect the ref to be able to deal with it all and whilst the introduction of technology will be a teething process shining light on grey areas of the rules and initially producing unusual occurrences ie 5 pens in the same game for defenders pulling shirts in the box. Imagine if VAR had been in place specifically following the absolute rats of the game, two names in the hat for example being Suarez and Pepe, I think it would've had a huge impact on the way these kind of characters play the game as the abhorrent behavior displayed if missed by the ref would be punished. That's the hope anyway, as naive as it may be.

The point I would make is despite there being so much going on the refs miss very little, in the whole history of the game how many major wrong doings have their been in hundreds of thousands of games? It truly is minimal.

As I have said many times football is a sport, its not a search for the ultimate truth and nor in my opinion should it be.

As for the last point we should not need VAR for people to clean up their act,

 

[scaramanga]

The point I would make is despite there being so much going on the refs miss very little, in the whole history of the game how many major wrong doings have their been in hundreds of thousands of games? It truly is minimal.

As I have said many times football is a sport, its not a search for the ultimate truth and nor in my opinion should it be.

As for the last point we should not need VAR for people to clean up their act,

I'd estimate that in the lead up to almost every single goal there is something that is technically a foul somewhere on the pitch. There is almost always an intentional block, a shirt pull, etc and we've just come to accept that referees only blow up for the major and obvious ones. Mainly because they only see a fraction of what happens on the pitch.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'd estimate that in the lead up to almost every single goal there is something that is technically a foul somewhere on the pitch. There is almost always an intentional block, a shirt pull, etc and we've just come to accept that referees only blow up for the major and obvious ones. Mainly because they only see a fraction of what happens on the pitch.

its worth reading the laws of play as many of those things are decided upon interpretation and are only a foul as that is how we decide to ref them. Pushing is allowed as long as its not careless /reckless or using excessive force - deciding what is excessive force is what makes it a foul, we are moving towards any contact being excessive but we could move the other way if we chose.

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:


IMPEDING THE PROGRESS OF AN OPPONENT WITHOUT CONTACT

Impeding the progress of an opponent means moving into the opponent’s path to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player.

All players have a right to their position on the field of play; being in the way of an opponent is not the same as moving into the way of an opponent.

 

[Grays_1890]

I'd estimate that in the lead up to almost every single goal there is something that is technically a foul somewhere on the pitch. There is almost always an intentional block, a shirt pull, etc and we've just come to accept that referees only blow up for the major and obvious ones. Mainly because they only see a fraction of what happens on the pitch.

I'm not sure I agree on that, you watch an over produced product like Sky and they would pick up on the majority of that and rarely do.

Also like you say thats an estimate

 

[scaramanga]

I'm not sure I agree on that, you watch an over produced product like Sky and they would pick up on the majority of that and rarely do.

Also like you say thats an estimate

That's the thing, they don't pick up on that stuff because it's just accepted as normal now.

Shirt tugging goes on all the time, but is only highlighted when a player's shirt is stretched. Pretty much every single back pass to a keeper involves intentional blocking of a forward. As does almost every set piece near the box or corner.

 

[Baleforce]

around 10 obstructions every game too as players shield the ball out whilst making no attempt to play it

 

[scaramanga]

its worth reading the laws of play as many of those things are decided upon interpretation and are only a foul as that is how we decide to ref them. Pushing is allowed as long as its not careless /reckless or using excessive force - deciding what is excessive force is what makes it a foul, we are moving towards any contact being excessive but we could move the other way if we chose.

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:


IMPEDING THE PROGRESS OF AN OPPONENT WITHOUT CONTACT

Impeding the progress of an opponent means moving into the opponent’s path to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player.

All players have a right to their position on the field of play; being in the way of an opponent is not the same as moving into the way of an opponent.

Are those two separate quotes or am I reading it correctly that obstruction only occurs if it's both intentional and with excessive force.