Uighur treatment in China

[Grays_1890]

oh there he is, was waiting for Grays to pop up and disagree for the sake of it. "i am Jack's total lack of surprise..."

Regarding Christian countries adapting, have you told Poland that recently?

No?

Maybe Hungary, did you ask them? Maybe you missed that too. Those Christian countries acknowledging their LGBTQ faults.

And Russia of course.

You can start here, but Google's a great friend: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/02/25/a-third-of-poland-declared-lgbt-free-zone/

Disagree for the sake of it?

The fact you defend the killing of women because they dare to cheat on their husbands or a religion that treats women like crap is laughable?

Russia and Poland anti LGBT side comes from their more far right beliefs that religious.

The point is the head of the Islamic religion and administration which sits in Saudi Arabia promotes the extremism of their writings, its forms the basis of their administration and it is policed with extremism which includes death, you can not dispute that, we are not talking a pocket of extremism, we are talking the HEAD of their religion that governs directly 34m in a country and the wider religion. We are not talking a small weird American family that take the religion and stalk gays we are talking an ADMINISTRATION that still actively promotes the archaic beliefs within the scriptures


If your example was to hold any water the UK would be burning Gay people at the stake because its in the bible and we are a predominate Christian county? The fact is other religions you have mentioned have managed to move on and realise that covering your wifes face or killing your daughter because she wants to marry a Brit is wrong.

I lived in the Middle East for a long time and worked for a hotel chain for 10 years based here but went on and off for that time, I am in no way anti the region but the administration of their religion promotes the extremism at the basis of their beliefs.

Capital offences include

Blasphemy
Apostasy
Adultery
Waging War on GHod
Sorcery or Witch Craft which is my personal fav

 

[Rorschach]

The underlying point to this thread, which is getting lost a little in the religious point scoring, is that atrocities carried out against Muslims don't generate quite the same amount of moral outrage as they should. And there is plenty of atrocities to choose from even ignoring the treatment of Uighurs - Myanmar, India, America. Can you imagine the apoplectic rage that would be on show if Trump had instituted a Christian travel ban? Sounds mad to even contemplate but it's not that different.

 

[Diamond Lights]

The underlying point is to this thread, which is getting lost a little in the religious point scoring, is that atrocities carried out against Muslims don't generate quite the same amount of moral outrage as they should. And there is plenty of atrocities to choose from even ignoring the treatment of Uighurs - Myanmar, India, America. Can you imagine the apoplectic rage that would be on show if Trump had instituted a Christian travel ban? Sounds mad to even contemplate but it's not that different.

It's quite a layered issue being the main problem, not solely down to religion but mainly geo politics at play too.

First of all, you have a media that's spent years building up the "Islam is the Enemy" narrative (as well as 'foreigners'). The currency of a 'foreign' life, an immigrant, or a muslim is worth less. "roosterroaches" and "invaders" as certain people like to call them. When you dehumanise life to this extent, in our media, this is simply the effect from the causality.

Geopolitcally, China are simply massive (not just geographical spread, economy etc) and quite frankly DGAF what people think. Now in other countries you could counter this with sanctions etc, but with China, you can't. They're too big a player, too much dependency on China for goods (nice iPhone). You can write a stern letter to them, but ultimately they won't bat an eyelid.

 

[DTA]

Disagree for the sake of it?

The fact you defend the killing of women because they dare to cheat on their husbands or a religion that treats women like crap is laughable?

Russia and Poland anti LGBT side comes from their more far right beliefs that religious.

The point is the head of the Islamic religion and administration which sits in Saudi Arabia promotes the extremism of their writings, its forms the basis of their administration and it is policed with extremism which includes death, you can not dispute that, we are not talking a pocket of extremism, we are talking the HEAD of their religion that governs directly 34m in a country and the wider religion. We are not talking a small weird American family that take the religion and stalk gays we are talking an ADMINISTRATION that still actively promotes the archaic beliefs within the scriptures


If your example was to hold any water the UK would be burning Gay people at the stake because its in the bible and we are a predominate Christian county? The fact is other religions you have mentioned have managed to move on and realise that covering your wifes face or killing your daughter because she wants to marry a Brit is wrong.

I lived in the Middle East for a long time and worked for a hotel chain for 10 years based here but went on and off for that time, I am in no way anti the region but the administration of their religion promotes the extremism at the basis of their beliefs.

Capital offences include

Blasphemy
Apostasy
Adultery
Waging War on GHod
Sorcery or Witch Craft which is my personal fav

As you saying that Saudi is the Head of the muslim religion?

 

[Grays_1890]

As you saying that Saudi is the Head of the muslim religion?

Its very much a controlling interest in one of the sect yes. Regional Iman's sit in many regions but they all look to Saudi Arabia for guidance.

When I lived in the Middle East it was the controlling country within everything the region did when it came to religion. Makkah being the equivalent of the Vatican city.

I was in Dubai the government were going to build a casino ontop of a hotel or the idea was floated, I think it was the Hyatt. The council in Saudi caused a stink and put undue pressure on the Dubai heads on religious grounds and the canned the idea to avoid tensions within the region.

The point originally was that all religions are extreme because of what is featured within the bibles, but the only religion that still practices those extremes not through choice but also legal administration is Islam, thats not controversial or Islamophobic its a fact of life, those entries in the Quran still provide the legal and moral background for their religion en masse. Unfortunately according to Forbes out of the top 5 dangerous countries to live in the world for homosexuals are those with islamic faith which is a shame. I am not anti Islam just extremely pro gay and womens rights, it would be my hope they make strides to address that as it is also my wish anyone anywhere addresses their oppression or discrimination of anyone, that includes the UKs BTW

 

[LutonSpurs]

The worst bigotry here is where you assume all of us muslims are some sort of monolithic cult and have the same ideas.

Please STFU

 

[LutonSpurs]

Its very much a controlling interest in one of the sect yes. Regional Iman's sit in many regions but they all look to Saudi Arabia for guidance.

When I lived in the Middle East it was the controlling country within everything the region did when it came to religion. Makkah being the equivalent of the Vatican city.

The point originally was that all religions are extreme because of what is featured within the bibles, but the only religion that still practices those extremes not through choice but also legal administration is Islam, thats not controversial or Islamophobic its a fact of life, those entries in the Quran still provide the legal and moral background for their religion en masse. Unfortunately according to Forbes out of the top 5 dangerous countries to live in the world for homosexuals are those with islamic faith which is a shame. I am not anti Islam just extremely pro gay and womens rights, it would be my hope they make strides to address that as it is also my wish anyone anywhere addresses their oppression or discrimination of anyone, that includes the UKs BTW

You really know very little about the religon or its followers my friend

 

[Grays_1890]

You really know very little about the religon or its followers my friend

On the followers I am sure I don't I have not said that anywhere and I agree with you. There are millions upon millions of Mulsims that dont live by the extremity of the scriptures, 100% I agree.

The fact I am conveying is that major countries home to millions of people are still governed by the extremism within the religion writings. Saudi Arabia is without doubt governed closely to those extremes as are many within the Middle East. Hence why its still illegal to be homosexual officially, that law was not set with any other reason than the religious belief in mind.

No doubt as a modern man your belief is different to that but you cant deny the establishment in Saudi is not extreme in its beliefs and that it does not come from the religious influence, if it was personal influence the extremities would have died out like they do with dictators. The laws are religious interpretations not moral

 

[LutonSpurs]

On the followers I am sure I don't I have not said that anywhere and I agree with you. There are millions upon millions of Mulsims that dont live by the extremity of the scriptures, 400% I agree.

The fact I am conveying is that major countries home to millions of people are still governed by the extremism within the religion writings. Saudi Arabia is without doubt governed closely to those extremes as are many within the Middle East. Hence why its still illegal to be homosexual officially, that law was not set with any other reason than the religious belief in mind.

No doubt as a modern man your belief is different to that but you cant deny the establishment in Saudi is not extreme in its beliefs and that it does not come from the religious influence, if it was personal influence the extremities would have died out like they do with dictators.

I hate the Saudis. They are not representative of orthodox Islam anyway. And I'm a practising Muslim but I'm hardly religious. A lot like a lot of my Jewish friends. Islam is more an identity thing.

My views on homosexuality is that I like the ones who fancy me. The others have bad taste.

And a thread about oppression of Muslims has become a bash all Muslims thread now. You would never see the same language used about hassidic Jewish people on here which is great but it makes me remember that being Muslim means there will always be more hatred to me and mine regardless of what we actually believe.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Oh and I would never ask for people not to criticise my faith. I don't have the right to do that and nor do I expect it

 

[Grays_1890]

I hate the Saudis. They are not representative of orthodox Islam anyway. And I'm a practising Muslim but I'm hardly religious. A lot like a lot of my Jewish friends. Islam is more an identity thing.

My views on homosexuality is that I like the ones who fancy me. The others have bad taste.

And a thread about oppression of Muslims has become a bash all Muslims thread now. You would never see the same language used about hassidic Jewish people on here which is great but it makes me remember that being Muslim means there will always be more hatred to me and mine regardless of what we actually believe.

Believe it or not its not a Muslim bashing thread its a thread that is saying that unfortunately Saudi Arabia still polices its country on the extreme parts within the Quaran. The rest of the world has moved on, that was the point.

On that point you could argue that Saudi has a huge part to play in the perception because this is not an extremists interpretation of religion which was my point, this a whole country and establishment which does not help when you look at progressive and liberal Muslims.

The reason I hammered it home was not anti Islam, it was the fact that someone was denying that it was the case.

Like all religions there are beautiful parts of all and bad of all and thats someone who is Jewish and hates out oppression of Palestine based on religion.

 

[Grays_1890]

Oh and I would never ask for people not to criticise my faith. I don't have the right to do that and nor do I expect it

I don't think its a bad thing to questions religious interpretation in law making, on the flip side we have seen the extremities within Christianity and its policing of society only just leave the UK bit by bit with the abolishment of homosexuality being illegal. Catholicism is a slow mover but seems to be moving, might take one more liberal pope to seal the deal. The problem with Saudi, Qatar, Iran etc is it seems they seem slower movers in terms of interpretation of religion into life and how to separate belief with morally what is acceptable or not.

 

[DTA]

Its very much a controlling interest in one of the sect yes. Regional Iman's sit in many regions but they all look to Saudi Arabia for guidance.

When I lived in the Middle East it was the controlling country within everything the region did when it came to religion. Makkah being the equivalent of the Vatican city.

I was in Dubai the government were going to build a casino ontop of a hotel or the idea was floated, I think it was the Hyatt. The council in Saudi caused a stink and put undue pressure on the Dubai heads on religious grounds and the canned the idea to avoid tensions within the region.

The point originally was that all religions are extreme because of what is featured within the bibles, but the only religion that still practices those extremes not through choice but also legal administration is Islam, thats not controversial or Islamophobic its a fact of life, those entries in the Quran still provide the legal and moral background for their religion en masse. Unfortunately according to Forbes out of the top 5 dangerous countries to live in the world for homosexuals are those with islamic faith which is a shame. I am not anti Islam just extremely pro gay and womens rights, it would be my hope they make strides to address that as it is also my wish anyone anywhere addresses their oppression or discrimination of anyone, that includes the UKs BTW

Mate you got that arse backwards. Suadi is not the head of Islam in any way shape or form. They would like to be but absolutely no one recognises them as such. Even your example of UAE bowing their heads to the Saudis is more about politics than religion.

The last Khalif (spelling) which you are saying the saudis are was within the Ottoman empire, that was split up by the west and even a 100 years ago was much more progressive than the Saudis are today.

Most Muslims hate the whabbi Saudis... thats 100% the truth. Funnily (not realy funny) their biggest supporters are the west.

And you comparing the Vatican to Mecca... is just a little funny.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Seriously Grays, the stuff you are saying is straight out of a typical far right play book. Wahabiism and Saudis are miniscule in our world. We are such a broadchurch.

 

[Grays_1890]

Mate you got that arse backwards. Suadi is not the head of Islam in any way shape or form. They would like to be but absolutely no one recognises them as such. Even your example of UAE bowing their heads to the Saudis is more about politics than religion.

The last Khalif (spelling) which you are saying the saudis are was the Ottoman empire, that was split up by the west and even a 100 years ago was much.
more progressive than the Saudis are today.

Most Muslims hate the whabbi Saudis... thats 400% the truth.

And you comparing the Vatican to Mecca... is just a little funny.

Even if its politics dressed up as religion there is a cross over, you dont put pressure on areas of religious interest for politics alone, things like gambling hold no political interest to Saudi, its a religious based decision, not that I care if the UAE gambles or not.

If they use religion to push political power or vice versa they do it and its entwined.

Not sure how laughable both are seen as religious epicenters, in fact I made a fortune in the Midlands flogging hotel rooms to Hajj and Umra travel agencies and Luton.

 

[Grays_1890]

Seriously Grays, the stuff you are saying is straight out of a typical far right play book. Wahabiism and Saudis are miniscule in our world. We are such a broadchurch.

How is it far right, I have agreed with that? I have been very specific about the regimes I have talked about not the broader religion, have said many times it may misrepresent you.

Its abit of a cop out to say its far right to highlight that countries whose administrations make it illegal to be homosexual take their decisions from religious context. Those countries are under islamic rule or its the vast majority of the religious make up, thats not my fault or yours. It 100% misrepresents the broader Islamic world but its not right wing to highlight the fact in the context of the discussion that many official administrations still takes extreme religious views into their laws. That cant be refuted.

That would be like saying that the Catholic churches view on abortions have been crap, its not a right wing view and nor is it me saying the whole Catholic belief system is the same.

It not me misrepresenting your religion its 9 or 10 major nations that choose to rule by extreme nature.

 

[DTA]

Even if its politics dressed up as religion there is a cross over, you dont put pressure on areas of religious interest for politics alone, things like gambling hold no political interest to Saudi, its a religious based decision, not that I care if the UAE gambles or not.

If they use religion to push political power or vice versa they do it and its entwined.

Not sure how laughable both are seen as religious epicenters, in fact I made a fortune in the Midlands flogging hotel rooms to Hajj and Umra travel agencies and Luton.

Yeah lots of Muslims go to Mecca, but its nothing like the vatican. It really truly isn't. Its just a place where you are supposed to make pilgrimage once in your life if you can afford it and are healthy enough.

 

[Diamond Lights]

The rest of the world has moved on, that was the point.

that's a bit of a blanket statement. I mean, over 200,000 child marriages took place in the US since the turn of 2000... Similar to the purpose of this thread, always a lot of outcry when similar stories in Muslim nations but no one bats an eyelid in the Western world where it happens...

 

[DTA]

How is it far right, I have agreed with that? I have been very specific about the regimes I have talked about not the broader religion, have said many times it may misrepresent you.

Its abit of a cop out to say its far right to highlight that countries whose administrations make it illegal to be homosexual take their decisions from religious context. Those countries are under islamic rule or its the vast majority of the religious make up, thats not my fault or yours. It 400% misrepresents the broader Islamic world but its not right wing to highlight the fact in the context of the discussion that many official administrations still takes extreme religious views into their laws. That cant be refuted.

That would be like saying that the Catholic churches view on abortions have been crap, its not a right wing view and nor is it me saying the whole Catholic belief system is the same.

It not me misrepresenting your religion its 9 or 10 major nations that choose to rule by extreme nature.

But the whabbi Saudis don't represent even a fraction of muslims. Its like talking about Sciencetolgy being representative of western beliefs

 

[Grays_1890]

that's a bit of a blanket statement. I mean, over 200,000 child marriages took place in the US since the turn of 2000... Similar to the purpose of this thread, always a lot of outcry when similar stories in Muslim nations but no one bats an eyelid in the Western world where it happens...

No one is disputing that, you are confusing two different arguments.

Post the story and we will discuss it, you are as guilty of not posting the outcry as anyone from that extent?