Raoul Duke
Gordon Durie
Religion is organised schizophrenia.
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Tunisia
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spurspinter1
Pat van den Hauwe
I do accept that, my statement was fairly wild and sweeping and I apologise for that. I don't mean my thoughts to be a personal attack in any way shape or form, I do give everyone a chance, irregardless of gender/race/religion/age/sexuality. Perhaps the better word rather than nature would be a characteristic of humans, to be fair, I wasn't placing myself in those that do have the urge to take what isn't mine, thus putting myself on a bit of a high horse whilst simultaneously having a go at everyone else. It's a bad habit at the moment of mine I'm afraid, I want to believe in karma and a justice prevailing but each and every day I lose faith in people to be honest. I think my original post would have served better if I'd have said a common human characteristic rather than an all encompassing human nature
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Some truth in that but a lot of supposition ( imo). As for faith in the human race I must admit I lost that years ago.
braineclipse
Terry Dyson
Who are "we" in this? And what do you mean by "allowing religion to exist"?
Religion is qualitatively different from other causes and ideologies imo. The addition of a supposed afterlife, the alleged presence of a heaven or hell, the idea that a GHod figure will punish or reward us after death based on our actions and beliefs whilst alive, the idea that human beings can know the mind of said GHod figure on these issues of reward and punishment. There are very few non religious (superstitious) beliefs that contain analogous claims. And these are claims that can be used to great effect to motivate people.
Even with a radical communist or a complete free market believing capitalist I can have a conversation about human pain, suffering, flourishing and happiness. Most likely we will not interpret evidence the same way, or rate the same issues as important. Our discussion, assuming they're not religious, will be one about the human condition in this life. That all changes once someone claims that what is really important is the next life.
Religious moderates are a huge part of the problem. 3 quick examples:
1. They provide the basis for extremists. Try recruiting members to the "Norse State" extremists based on the ancient Norse beliefs. Chances are you'll struggle. Teaching millions (or billions) of people that these books are actually holy, as in written by or inspired by a GHod, is a problem. To make it worse it's usually done at a really young age, before kids reach the age of reason and are particularly gullible even for humans.
2. They often provide the financial, political and structural backing for "extremists". Catholic moderates continuing to support their church despite their views on condoms and aids causing deaths in the millions and immeasurable suffering, despite the church actively protecting child rapists from the law. This allows the "extremists" of the upper echelon of the church to continue doing their thing.
3. Often their views are deeply troubling. Part of the social improvements happening since the enlightenment has been dragging the "moderates" kicking and screaming from decade to decade. From racism through women's rights to homosexuality the Christian "moderates" have been a real cause of pain, death, suffering and slowing down progress. With science this is particularly obvious. It should be just as obviously how much of an issue this is within Islam at the moment.
Religion is a particularly effective tool if one wants to elicit that kind of behaviour, which I see you accept is only a part of human nature.
I'm not sure who you're actually arguing against with the "believe there won't be any war" comment, I'm guessing it's no one in this thread and a very small proportion of atheists/people that oppose religions in general. I can believe religion to be one of the biggest problems for mankind whilst still accepting that there are other problems, it's not that difficult.
Anyone who isn't religious.
I mean that people should be cured of religions just as people have been cured of Polio. They're no more than a contagious form of mental illness.
I see it as a moral obligation to vaccinate (educate) against such a disease. If kids were taught that silly zombie stories are just that from an early age, society would be almost cured within a generation.
spurspinter1
Pat van den Hauwe
What I'm saying is that I accept that behind a lot of atrocities committed, religion will be linked but eradicating religion wouldn't solve the worlds problems. I don't think you've understood what I'm saying at all based on your last sentence.
People who just look at the problems religion causes (generally extremist distorted versions of religion) whilst not allowing themselves to believe it can be a force for good are hugely ignorant in my opinion. If you do think that religion is one of the biggest problems for humankind then fair enough, that's your right to do so but I disagree
Like in any walk of life, people have their own interpretation of what's around them, some people read the Bible and think that blowing up some retail stores in Manchester is a terrific idea and you have some people who'll read the Quran and killing some infidel holiday makers. But then when we look at other times of difficulty, as far as I know, Stalin was an atheist, so it wasn't Zeus or Jesus goading him in to slaughtering the masses, tyranny and evilness doesn't have to be derived from ancient scriptures.
As I said earlier, I prefer to judge someone not on their religion race sexuality etc etc etc but on who they are. And if someone holds this negative viewpoint of religion as a whole, it's a huge level of preconceived prejudice which does further this us/them mentality that is the real thing that causes issues.
And I appreciate this does sound hugely hypocritical after writing all of that ^^^ but I do think this isn't the thread do be delving in to perception of religion (happy to continue the discussion elsewhere) but should be one of remembrance to those lives sadly taken, British or not, religious or not.
Craig_J
Mido
I'm 21 and few people I've met in my age group are religious. As you say though those that are are the ones who have been taught it from a young age. Most of the young Muslims I meet as well go to mosque as their families tell them they should but don't really believe in Alah anyway.
I think that not in my life time but a couple of generations after that religion in the western world will be no more common than backwoods cults are. In the middle east though I can't see it ever dying away without a sharp increase in eudcation and prosperity and that's probably not coming any time soon.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Jack Jull
I can understand how and why religions grew, ignorant people not know the sun was going to return everyday and some smart a*** says he knows the bloke who make that happen and if you all do what he told me you should do it will be ok, very simple. How in a modern world where we all have a basic understanding of how our world works can people believe it all depends on some old bloke with a beard who's worried about what we eat and drink and whether we use a contraceptive or get divorced really is beyond belief.
As communities we need moral codes, different cultures will develop differing ones but we don't need a Pope, Scholar or Head Poo Bah to lead us.
As communities we need moral codes, different cultures will develop differing ones but we don't need a Pope, Scholar or Head Poo Bah to lead us.
Jurgen the German
Willie Hall
I agree with most of this, think you went a bit far with the slavery bit but I digress
I don't see the need for religion in 2015. You do not need religion to be a good person or have a moral compass. People would argue that lots of good has come from religion e.g. soup kitchens and charities, but I'm convinced those practices would still be able to exist without religion. The idea of people living their lives based on books written allegedly thousands of years ago by people who arguably never exisited completely baffles me.
3 people in my office are currently undertaking Ramadan, one fainted today in the office. Another is off sick just days after telling me fasting is good for you. Some religious people are totally brainwashed. It almost seems completely arbitrary as well, if you were born in Iraq you would be a muslim, if you were born in America, chances are you would Christian.
Bill Maher speaks a lot of sense when it comes to religion.
Jurgen the German
Willie Hall
So 3 people in my office are doing Ramadan; One has been off sick all last week and has taken holiday this week after trying to tell me it is good fasting in this heat is good for you. One fainted in the office last week and the guy who sits opposite went home sick today after telling me it was no big deal.
As Scara said, would the world really be that worse off without religion.
As Scara said, would the world really be that worse off without religion.
Jurgen the German
Willie Hall
Yep. You only have to see the clip of him interrupting Barack Obama about 15 times in 5 times to know what a clam he is.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
Jurgen Re: Ramadan, I believe the guys in your office have misunderstood the purpose of the fast. Ramadan is a very holy month, in which the fast from food and water is only one principle. You fast in order to feel what it is like to go with out food like many people in the world do. In that time you are also supposed to refrain from swearing, speaking ill of your neighbour and violence. It is quite clear that if you need to take water because your life is endangered or you need to eat because you are ill or pregnant you can. I personally think it is a great discipline, although as a non Muslim myself I do not participate. I have the greatest admiration and respect for those who do. There are many worth tenets held by different religions from Christianity to Islam.
This is the thing about religious tenets they start off as very worthy but then as their meaning is passed on through generations they change. That does make religion bad in itself. You must also take into account that a belief in GHod gives many people, including myself, great personal comfort.
Make no mistake, ISIS is only loosely based on religious doctrine, in fact using religion where it suits them. they are wider socio-political factors going on here. This is a right wing facist dictatorship which evolved from the displacement of the Sunni population from Iraq. These are the modern day nazis and their aim as it was with the Nazis is to increase their territories.
This is the thing about religious tenets they start off as very worthy but then as their meaning is passed on through generations they change. That does make religion bad in itself. You must also take into account that a belief in GHod gives many people, including myself, great personal comfort.
Make no mistake, ISIS is only loosely based on religious doctrine, in fact using religion where it suits them. they are wider socio-political factors going on here. This is a right wing facist dictatorship which evolved from the displacement of the Sunni population from Iraq. These are the modern day nazis and their aim as it was with the Nazis is to increase their territories.
glasgowspur
Andy Thompson
Religion does make good people bad or bad people good. It can make good people better or evil people more evil.
I abhor organised religion, most of them describe a GHod who is nothing but a bully, do what I say or else.
If there is a GHod, and I don't rule it out, and that is how he behaved I can't see that he would remain as obscurely hidden as he is. Bullies don't tend to be anonymous.
I abhor organised religion, most of them describe a GHod who is nothing but a bully, do what I say or else.
If there is a GHod, and I don't rule it out, and that is how he behaved I can't see that he would remain as obscurely hidden as he is. Bullies don't tend to be anonymous.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
I agree that organised religion often describes GHod as a "bully" but unfortunately that is man trying to interpret GHod which is impossible. Man also picks and chooses the areas of the bible or the Koran or other religious texts which suits them. One must not forget that religion has provided great art, literature and history
Without wanting to sound preachy, because believe or not although I am a keen student of religion I do not follow any organised religion per se, I love the words of a great teacher when asked about which of the commandments is the most important he said:
Love your GHod with all your heart, soul and mind. That's the first, and the second love your neighbour as you would yourself.
Now if religions focused on those 2 commandments life would be fine and relatively uncomplicated.
Religion would have stopped existing after a generation if that were the case.
I likened religion to a communicative disease intentionally - without that bit of code in it saying "go out and convince everyone else this is the truth" then religions would never have spread.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
The thin
Btw the poster above who blames the Catholic church for the ills of Africa is being far too simplistic. The Catholic church preaches no sex before marriage and no adultery. Hence if this was followed AIDS would not be an issue. Having large families is more to do with cultural issues than the Catholic church . However the child abuse by their priests and their response to those allegations is absolutely indefensible.
The thing is mate, we tend to focus on bad of organised religion but there is also a lot of good. After all over 3 billion people follow some form of organised religion most of whom are just normal people going about their daily life. The problem come from zealots of all religions by the way, who interpret the words of man literally. There also others who manipulate the words for their own end. I strongly believe that if you are part of organised religion you should not just be a passive receiver of "wisdom" that is where the problems are. You should ask questions both Jesus and Mohammed were clear about this. Both the bible and the Quran talk of falsely prophets.
Btw the poster above who blames the Catholic church for the ills of Africa is being far too simplistic. The Catholic church preaches no sex before marriage and no adultery. Hence if this was followed AIDS would not be an issue. Having large families is more to do with cultural issues than the Catholic church . However the child abuse by their priests and their response to those allegations is absolutely indefensible.
I don't believe that religion brings "goodness" or anything like that. In fact, on any objective study I've ever seen, atheists, the religious and anyone in between all score within tiny boundaries on morality tests. The only outliers are socio/psychopaths who are able to see the bigger picture and make sacrifices for the overall good.
People often have the remainder of old Victorian values of chastity and piousness and through that lens, the religious may seem like better people. In reality, if you had to choose the "best" kind of people it would be the (mostly atheist) humanists.
Agree with most of the rest of the post, the church isn't entirely responsible for Africa's problems, but contributory guilt is still guilt even if it's not the only thing at fault.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
Agree with much of your post. The problem with religion is that most if not all are wrapped up in dogma which adherents have to follow even if only to a small extent. Humanists and atheists do not have to adhere to dogma atheists and hence can be more open minded. Although some atheists such as Richard Dawkins are so tied to scientific dogma, that they have gone too far the other way and closed their minds to the possibility of a higher being . I am not really fussed about whether someone is religious or non religious as long as they are willing to keep open mind and question dogma.
glasgowspur
Andy Thompson
There for is the problem with organised religion, you're getting the GHod man wants you to have, not the real GHod.