***TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Arsenal OMT***

[Bedfordspurs]

No, it's exactly the same as other fouls. You don't give away a free kick every time a player falls over. The stakes are higher with a handball but it's even more true when the referee has to dish out a yellow or a red card. I think what people have a hard time agreeing with is the fact that it's up to the referee's interpretation. That's the point a lot of people are missing with VAR: it's not meant to replace the referee; it's there to avoid blatant mistakes (sending off the wrong player, giving away a penalty when the foul was outside the box and so on). If the ref had felt Nketiah's tackle on Vicario deserved a red card, VAR wouldn't have said anything either.

Personally, I think VAR don't add anything to the game but it's important to understand that in FIFA's view, the referee's interpretation remains central. Unless the ref himself asks for VAR, they're not supposed to overrule each and every decision he makes.

So, yes, there will be mistake and there will be disagreements and we all know 'bigger' clubs and home teams will benefit from such mistakes more often but it's nothing new. Football fans (myself included) always think they know the game better than the refs but that's simply not true. You have a better view on TV but nothing will ever replace the feeling you get when you're on the pitch. Otherwise, armchair fans' opinions would be more valuable than season tickets holders.

It’s why the referees interpretation was imo right yesterday
Only because he didn’t give it though
He only gave it after VAR intervened. I’d love to know what it said
It took a deflection - yep
Did he make himself bigger - no
Were his arms in a natural position - probably, they weren’t in a unnatural position
Was it super close hen the ball was kicked… - about 2 yards
But, did it stop a shot on target - yes

the latter is for me why it’s penalty but all the other things area exactly why it can’t be

 

[tommysvr]

No, it's exactly the same as other fouls. You don't give away a free kick every time a player falls over.

Of course; just like every time a ball hits a hand, it wouldn't be handball. But no other foul needs to be "deliberate"

 

[stratnumberone]

I tend to agree - reluctantly - that the pen was the right call. That said, the law is very clearly ambiguous so I’m probably agreeing on the decision based on applying my own view, which is that if you derive an advantage from a handball (whether deliberate or not) then it should be given against you. I get that there’s a player behind Romero but no one can ever know if he would have cleared the ball. It was extremely unlucky though. Let’s be honest: we’d be fuming if that had happened to us with no pen as a result.

Nketieh’s ‘tackle’, however, is a different matter. What a disgraceful failure of the the officials and VAR in particular. I was stood in the far corner of the ground and it looked shocking from there. For the ref to award a yellow rather than a red is acceptable (Refs know they have the VAR ‘back up’ option so I think they’re disinclined to show straight reds) but how that wasn’t upgraded is an utter travesty. Arsenal (their idiotic manager in particular) likes to whinge endlessly about decisions going against them but they can count themselves very very lucky there. They’d have ended up playing over half an hour a man down and we were in the ascendency at that point. I think we would have gone on to win the game. Furthermore, he’d have had to serve a suspension for key games, too.

But little Eddie is so terribly young so I think it’s only fair to cut him a significant amount of slack.

special mention to the Arsenal Ultras (I’ve whined about this before: why is the football community so accepting of people dressing, behaving and naming themselves after actual, literal, committed fascists?). When crossing the bridge to the stadium, fans were separated into Home and Away meaning that anonymity was lost and suddenly everyone knew who was who. The response from the Home hard-nut-right-wingers alongside us was immediate and utterly devastating: “you fat taco”, “you’re so fat” and a selection of other weight based insults. To say that my group was profoundly affected would be an understatement. It was the funniest thing any of us had heard in ages.

Ludicrously, at the end of the bridge, having split everyone up and therefore creating a potential flashpoint right outside the stadium, they then merged everyone back together prior to entry. Great work Arsenal FC.

All in all, a thoroughly enjoyable day out that could have been even better had the officials done their jobs.

I love the character in the side. I love how players didn’t try to hide when behind. They were showing for the ball, bullying opponents. It was great to see. Hopefully the start of a long and glorious journey!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I tend to agree - reluctantly - that the pen was the right call. That said, the law is very clearly ambiguous so I’m probably agreeing on the decision based on applying my own view, which is that if you derive an advantage from a handball (whether deliberate or not) then it should be given against you. I get that there’s a player behind Romero but no one can ever know if he would have cleared the ball. It was extremely unlucky though. Let’s be honest: we’d be fuming if that had happened to us with no pen as a result.

Nketieh’s ‘tackle’, however, is a different matter. What a disgraceful failure of the the officials and VAR in particular. I was stood in the far corner of the ground and it looked shocking from there. For the ref to award a yellow rather than a red is acceptable (Refs know they have the VAR ‘back up’ option so I think they’re disinclined to show straight reds) but how that wasn’t upgraded is an utter travesty. Arsenal (their idiotic manager in particular) likes to whinge endlessly about decisions going against them but they can count themselves very very lucky there. They’d have ended up playing over half an hour a man down and we were in the ascendency at that point. I think we would have gone on to win the game. Furthermore, he’d have had to serve a suspension for key games, too.

But little Eddie is so terribly young so I think it’s only fair to cut him a significant amount of slack.

special mention to the Arsenal Ultras (I’ve whined about this before: why is the football community so accepting of people dressing, behaving and naming themselves after actual, literal, committed fascists?). When crossing the bridge to the stadium, fans were separated into Home and Away meaning that anonymity was lost and suddenly everyone knew who was who. The response from the Home hard-nut-right-wingers alongside us was immediate and utterly devastating: “you fat taco”, “you’re so fat” and a selection of other weight based insults. To say that my group was profoundly affected would be an understatement. It was the funniest thing any of us had heard in ages.

Ludicrously, at the end of the bridge, having split everyone up and therefore creating a potential flashpoint right outside the stadium, they then merged everyone back together prior to entry. Great work Arsenal FC.

All in all, a thoroughly enjoyable day out that could have been even better had the officials done their jobs.

I love the character in the side. I love how players didn’t try to hide when behind. They were showing for the ball, bullying opponents. It was great to see. Hopefully the start of a long and glorious journey!

I haven’t been there since the game we lobbed stuff at the little rat tail boy
But even then we used to stroll onto that ground like we owned it.
I remember the old ground and getting in… trying to go for a wee and getting a lecture for not tinkling on the floor
Their fans are just weak. It’s why they support a team with guns
All the Arsenal fans I know are really nice guys. Nice… that’s it

 

[Raziel]

It’s why the referees interpretation was imo right yesterday
Only because he didn’t give it though
He only gave it after VAR intervened. I’d love to know what it said
It took a deflection - yep
Did he make himself bigger - no
Were his arms in a natural position - probably, they weren’t in a unnatural position
Was it super close hen the ball was kicked… - about 2 yards
But, did it stop a shot on target - yes

the latter is for me why it’s penalty but all the other things area exactly why it can’t be

The problem is you will have that exact same scenario next week-end and a different "interpretation"

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Refereeing aside, it was an interesting game to watch, even though I felt we were mostly second best. On the plus side, we showed a lot of character and we never folded. It's also a good opportunity for me to eat a huge slice of humble pie: I said I wasn't a big fan of Bissouma earlier this season and he completely won me over with his last few performances. He's been absolutely massive. Shows I much I know about football, I guess... Anyway, it's really been a very good start to the season, so much so that I'm actually looking forward to the victims game for a change!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Refereeing aside, it was an interesting game to watch, even though I felt we were mostly second best. On the plus side, we showed a lot of character and we never folded. It's also a good opportunity for me to eat a huge slice of humble pie: I said I wasn't a big fan of Bissouma earlier this season and he completely won me over with his last few performances. He's been absolutely massive. Shows I much I know about football, I guess... Anyway, it's really been a very good start to the season, so much so that I'm actually looking forward to the victims game for a change!

Where did you think we were second best out of interest?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The problem is you will have that exact same scenario next week-end and a different "interpretation"

Exactly
Just look at the red card yesterday for Chelsea and the handball not given in the Sheffield game

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just reached the game on MOTD. brick coverage as seems to be the case more and more now
But…
I paused a few moments and what’s a huge measure of where we are is players in their half or their area when we are attacking
It’s quite scary the way we play with the swagger and confidence of the did that had been together for 5 years rather than 7 games
Another game in which we scored 2 goals
Another game where OG went against us (risk and reward I guess)
Another game where people are saying why didn’t we buy VVD, Destiny, Bissouma looks the part, that keeper is brilliant… son.. Maddison. We are being spoken about for all the right reasons

A few unsung players in this set up still are Porro and Kulu. They really link up so well and everything is positive.
Porro isn’t great defensively but his football baton is helping there
Kulu sometime looks like he isn’t moving but because he keeps the ball it’s just so bloody good
We’re really not far off being a top top side already. This isn’t fluke or a flash in the pan. This is all big Anges work with his coaches.
When you look at how some other coaches are struggling despite the higher reps you can see more and more why people rate the big man so highly

 

[elyid]

A point there, and taking two points off them, is a massive result compared to a loss.

4th in the table and we’ve only had two home games (one against Utd) whereas I think Arse have had four home games.

Keep doing what we’re doing and we’ll solidly be top 4 after another 6 games… from there who knows, but would hope we improve even more as the players get more used to the system.

 

[elyid]

Just reached the game on MOTD. brick coverage as seems to be the case more and more now
But…
I paused a few moments and what’s a huge measure of where we are is players in their half or their area when we are attacking
It’s quite scary the way we play with the swagger and confidence of the did that had been together for 5 years rather than 7 games
Another game in which we scored 2 goals
Another game where OG went against us (risk and reward I guess)
Another game where people are saying why didn’t we buy VVD, Destiny, Bissouma looks the part, that keeper is brilliant… son.. Maddison. We are being spoken about for all the right reasons

A few unsung players in this set up still are Porro and Kulu. They really link up so well and everything is positive.
Porro isn’t great defensively but his football baton is helping there
Kulu sometime looks like he isn’t moving but because he keeps the ball it’s just so bloody good
We’re really not far off being a top top side already. This isn’t fluke or a flash in the pan. This is all big Anges work with his coaches.
When you look at how some other coaches are struggling despite the higher reps you can see more and more why people rate the big man so highly

Great analysis. It’s hard not to get excited when this is just the beginning.

One other point to add is that we finally have options off the bench. Gone are the days of “lump Moura on and hope”, we now have two solid DMs, one wing option, Richy and Royale to mix it up. Gil & Bentancur still to return too.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Where did you think we were second best out of interest?

They won a lot of duels and put us under a lot of pressure in the first half, particularly in the 10 minutes or so after Udogie's booking. They were lucky with their goal but Vicario made a great save on Jesus' shot; so did Raya to be fair but, for me, in the first half they were playing on the front foot. You could argue that, in terms of chances, it was more even than that but the general run of play was in their favour. When the opposition seem to have more players than you do and when most one-on-ones go their way, it's usually a good indication on which team is getting the upper hand.

Our willingness (sometimes, stubborness) to play through the back made it easier for them to press us at times, but I believe that attitude will serve us well in the long run.

Striking back right after the penalty took the wind out of them and there's no doubt losing Rice was a big blow to them. I was under the impression the game could have gone either way for the next 10-15 minutes, until Maddison was taken off (understandably). They probably dominated possession in the last 20mns but we remained fairly threatening on the break, even though Richarlison, for me, isn't as suited to this type of play as Son. I truly dislike Neville as a pundit but it has to be said that he genuinely sounded like he was enjoying himself, for once. I disagree with Smith's comment that all Arsenal needed was a top striker to finish us off but I think it shows that they had the upper hand in the midfield battle, at least for long-ish sequences. That's how I saw anyway but I'm old enough to know that what you see is greatly influenced by your own state of mind (I was happy with a draw - maybe I'd remember things differently if I'd felt this was a game we had to win) and the company (in this case, I was on my own though) (with a bottle of Cognac called Remy Martin but he made very few comments about the game).

 

[Spur of the moment]

For me, the problem with all these contentious hand balls is that a penalty is too severe a punishment. It results in a goal the vast majority of the times. Maybe should be replaced by a free kick on the edge of the D. For it to be an actual penalty kick, there must be a degree of intention ( i.e. Like it was when all knew what a handball was!)
Just a suggestion

Agree the punishment seems disproportionately harsh, but once its inside the box the sanction simply HAS to be draconian enough to be an effective deterrent. Otherwise defenders would be trying it on all the time, just like they do now with the tactical foul, whereby they cheerfully concede the fk and accept the booking because it ends up giving them the advantage.

A few decades back Jimmy Hill came up with much the same idea as yours with his suggestion of the 'second degree penalty' for lesser infringements in the box, but after tortuous experiments he ended up reluctantly conceding it just would not work. It was amazing how few goals were scored just by moving the penalty spot back to the 18-yard line.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Great analysis. It’s hard not to get excited when this is just the beginning.

One other point to add is that we finally have options off the bench. Gone are the days of “lump Moura on and hope”, we now have two solid DMs, one wing option, Richy and Royale to mix it up. Gil & Bentancur still to return too.

fudging Moura… him and lamela are two of the frustrating players we have and IMO part of the issues we have had
Clearly talented players but both just lacked the right things at the wrong time

yesterday we could have done with Ivan as a sub. His intelligence and crossing may have been the perfect weapon. I like Soloman although he does remind me of Aaron Lennon a bit too much.
The squad isn’t where Ange would like it, but we can see that with his coaching we really aren’t far off

 

[elyid]

fudging Moura… him and lamela are two of the frustrating players we have and IMO part of the issues we have had
Clearly talented players but both just lacked the right things at the wrong time

yesterday we could have done with Ivan as a sub. His intelligence and crossing may have been the perfect weapon. I like Soloman although he does remind me of Aaron Lennon a bit too much.
The squad isn’t where Ange would like it, but we can see that with his coaching we really aren’t far off

yeah it’s like we spent a decade or more not making the most of subs (still scarred by Pochs overly late changes). Perisic will def be a miss, gutting really as the amount of goals we’ve scored from crosses has been huge.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They won a lot of duels and put us under a lot of pressure in the first half, particularly in the 10 minutes or so after Udogie's booking. They were lucky with their goal but Vicario made a great save on Jesus' shot; so did Raya to be fair but, for me, in the first half they were playing on the front foot. You could argue that, in terms of chances, it was more even than that but the general run of play was in their favour. When the opposition seem to have more players than you do and when most one-on-ones go their way, it's usually a good indication on which team is getting the upper hand.

Our willingness (sometimes, stubborness) to play through the back made it easier for them to press us at times, but I believe that attitude will serve us well in the long run.

Striking back right after the penalty took the wind out of them and there's no doubt losing Rice was a big blow to them. I was under the impression the game could have gone either way for the next 10-15 minutes, until Maddison was taken off (understandably). They probably dominated possession in the last 20mns but we remained fairly threatening on the break, even though Richarlison, for me, isn't as suited to this type of play as Son. I truly dislike Neville as a pundit but it has to be said that he genuinely sounded like he was enjoying himself, for once. I disagree with Smith's comment that all Arsenal needed was a top striker to finish us off but I think it shows that they had the upper hand in the midfield battle, at least for long-ish sequences. That's how I saw anyway but I'm old enough to know that what you see is greatly influenced by your own state of mind (I was happy with a draw - maybe I'd remember things differently if I'd felt this was a game we had to win) and the company (in this case, I was on my own though) (with a bottle of Cognac called Remy Martin but he made very few comments about the game).

Arsenal have needed a top striker for a long time
They just don’t exist anymore
I also think the commentary had an odd bias
If anyone had seen these derbies before you could predict what was going to happen
Every season they start on a high. They use that Adrenalin to their advantage. Then it collapses and they fall back to their norm. We then get chances which is exactly what happened
The key was and is, do we take the ones we get
Rice wasn’t in the game in the first half imo. It’s amazing how a team can soend £700m but be down to the bare bones after 6 league games.
With us this season we can see the progress that we need but we do need to really boost the squad, ideally with some coming through form within again please
With arsenal because they have spent so much but in reality not win enough to justify that so far I think they are gonna hit a crossroads this summer

and back on the game …
Their last shot on target was the penalty
They really ran out of ideas and I almost expected the classic Lego Head comments about we had the most crosses/corners
We do have a hug reliance on Maddison. That worries me. The guys been sensational but what’s the fall back???

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

A point there, and taking two points off them, is a massive result compared to a loss.

4th in the table and we’ve only had two home games (one against Utd) whereas I think Arse have had four home games.

Keep doing what we’re doing and we’ll solidly be top 4 after another 6 games… from there who knows, but would hope we improve even more as the players get more used to the system.

Think I heard they’ve played 1 match outside of London since the start of May!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Think I heard they’ve played 1 match outside of London since the start of May!

But… there young and travelling is harder with kids

 

[glasgowspur]

No, it's exactly the same as other fouls. You don't give away a free kick every time a player falls over. The stakes are higher with a handball but it's even more true when the referee has to dish out a yellow or a red card. I think what people have a hard time agreeing with is the fact that it's up to the referee's interpretation. That's the point a lot of people are missing with VAR: it's not meant to replace the referee; it's there to avoid blatant mistakes (sending off the wrong player, giving away a penalty when the foul was outside the box and so on). If the ref had felt Nketiah's tackle on Vicario deserved a red card, VAR wouldn't have said anything either.

Personally, I think VAR don't add anything to the game but it's important to understand that in FIFA's view, the referee's interpretation remains central. Unless the ref himself asks for VAR, they're not supposed to overrule each and every decision he makes.

So, yes, there will be mistake and there will be disagreements and we all know 'bigger' clubs and home teams will benefit from such mistakes more often but it's nothing new. Football fans (myself included) always think they know the game better than the refs but that's simply not true. You have a better view on TV but nothing will ever replace the feeling you get when you're on the pitch. Otherwise, armchair fans' opinions would be more valuable than season tickets holders.

If var is only supposed to be for blatant mistakes it didn't work yesterday, few people think that's a penalty decision worth over turning and almost all think it should have been red card. It should be involved or not, this only if scenario is nothing but a cop out and refs protecting their arse.
Evidence would suggest that football fans do more than refs, the standard of reffing is appalling, some of these decisions are barely acceptable with the naked eye, with the technology involved it's scandalous.
What if nketia had scored the winning goal yesterday?

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Arsenal have needed a top striker for a long time
They just don’t exist anymore
I also think the commentary had an odd bias
If anyone had seen these derbies before you could predict what was going to happen
Every season they start on a high. They use that Adrenalin to their advantage. Then it collapses and they fall back to their norm. We then get chances which is exactly what happened
The key was and is, do we take the ones we get
Rice wasn’t in the game in the first half imo. It’s amazing how a team can soend £700m but be down to the bare bones after 6 league games.
With us this season we can see the progress that we need but we do need to really boost the squad, ideally with some coming through form within again please
With arsenal because they have spent so much but in reality not win enough to justify that so far I think they are gonna hit a crossroads this summer

and back on the game …
Their last shot on target was the penalty
They really ran out of ideas and I almost expected the classic Lego Head comments about we had the most crosses/corners
We do have a hug reliance on Maddison. That worries me. The guys been sensational but what’s the fall back???

Quite frankly, I felt Jorginho was a major downgrade on Rice, if only because it seemed like he had a tough time getting into the rythm of the game. Let's be fair: they had a game mid-week and it was always likely they couldn't maintain that intensity throughout the 90 minutes. A very interesting debate, although it takes us away from the game itself: what does 'dominating the game' mean? To some people, it's having a better xG, to others it means confiscating the ball. At the end of the day, it's very subjective. It probably depends on your expectations or loyalties.

Not sure having a top striker a la Lewandowski for instance would massively change their fortunes or, at least, not as much as they think. A team is an act of balance and theirs doesn't look like it's set up to support a player like that but, then again, I don't watch them often enough to claim any expertise on that matter. It's just that too many people think 'good striker = goals coming out of nowhere'. If that were the case, Rebrov would have been one of the Premier League's top strikers.

On a side note, if you want to look at poor spending, so far, Chelsea seem to be setting a new standard.