Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Licence To Stand

[r-u-s-x]

So it's our job to put together a stadium, the job of the police to stop and trouble.

If the police are incapable of doing their job and in failing to do so damage our income, I can see a case where they would be liable.

I thought you would - but there is the way they can stop the game going ahead, you wanted to understand the measures they have and now you do.

 

[scaramanga]

I thought you would - but there is the way they can stop the game going ahead, you wanted to understand the measures they have and now you do.

I wanted to understand so that I could see whether the measure would be in stopping the initial certificate (which, I assume they can do for any reason they like) or because they can't fulfil their responsibility. If the latter, and it appears as if it is, then I would expect Levy to be taking legal advice on how we would recover those costs from them.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I believe the safety certificate would be awarded on the basis of the test events. What we do after that should be our choice.

I imagine the 4K Arsenal fans will be more concerned about a lack of police presence than the 58k Spurs fans.

The ridiculous thing is that there would be the same 3,000 number of Arsenal fans there as there always was at White Hart Lane.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I wanted to understand so that I could see whether the measure would be in stopping the initial certificate (which, I assume they can do for any reason they like) or because they can't fulfil their responsibility. If the latter, and it appears as if it is, then I would expect Levy to be taking legal advice on how we would recover those costs from them.

ok - in general is better not to tinkle off the police and other bodies you need in order to operate, you will find them being a lot more strict on the stuff that they could let go.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The club will have a credit facility from which to draw funds to service the build. This is not the same as using their own cash reserves.

This facility will be well managed, I have no doubt. Quite possibly not even due repayments at this time.

Regardless, you spend money on your credit card, and you pay it back monthly. The car comes back from its MOT with a list of repairs, it costs a bomb and you put that on the credit card - do those monthly repayments jump through the roof? Or do they go up a small but manageable amount?

This is essentially what we are talking about.

You can forget about the notions of finance/financing if you like, but you would be wrong to do so.

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. The club are using both their own cash reserves and their pool of credit to build this stadium. That has been clear from the last couple of financial statements, where the cash position has reduced from having a net cash surplus to having a large amount of net debt, despite making very large operational profits and spending little if anything net on transfer fees.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So it's our job to put together a stadium, the job of the police to stop and trouble.

If the police are incapable of doing their job and in failing to do so damage our income, I can see a case where they would be liable.

I think this one is going to go about as well as your pending damages law suit against South Korea.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. The club are using both their own cash reserves and their pool of credit to build this stadium. That has been clear from the last couple of financial statements, where the cash position has reduced from having a net cash surplus to having a large amount of net debt, despite making very large operational profits and spending little if anything net on transfer fees.

None of us know what money is going where for what, or if the precedent set the last couple of years is to continue.

Arguably, with the stadium all but complete, things are about to change dramatically as we refinance/get sponsorship etc.

A bit like having an expensive bridging loan while you build a house, but as it nears completion you can get a mortgage and all the immediate money crunch disappears...

I dont claim to be an expert, at all. I am very confident in how much I actually dont know, if you know what I mean? Which is why I think its a bit rich when people talk in such absolutes.

Bottom line is, one thing I think we should all be able to agree upon, Levy knows this brick back to front and wont leave us hamstrung.

 

[StephenH]

Levy knows this brick back to front and wont leave us hamstrung.

Here's hoping.

 

[scaramanga]

I think this one is going to go about as well as your pending damages law suit against South Korea.

It would have been against Son if he'd decided to complete his military service.

 

[scaramanga]

ok - in general is better not to tinkle off the police and other bodies you need in order to operate, you will find them being a lot more strict on the stuff that they could let go.

I find that those in charge of public funds tend to be very risk averse. The suggestion of costly legal entanglements tends to convince them you are right more often than not.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Cool so you think it will be Arsenal and Levy that we get a safety certificate, I think not.

 

[LesMedley]

The club will have a credit facility from which to draw funds to service the build. This is not the same as using their own cash reserves.

This facility will be well managed, I have no doubt. Quite possibly not even due repayments at this time.

Regardless, you spend money on your credit card, and you pay it back monthly. The car comes back from its MOT with a list of repairs, it costs a bomb and you put that on the credit card - do those monthly repayments jump through the roof? Or do they go up a small but manageable amount?

This is essentially what we are talking about.

You can forget about the notions of finance/financing if you like, but you would be wrong to do so.

I despair.
You appear to be serious about comparing borrowing on a credit card with financing a £600 million to £1 billion development project.
Anyone who that thinks borrowing on a credit card to pay any bills that should have been provided for is a good way to run their finances needs lessons in domestic financial management. Interest rates when borrowing on a credit card are exorbitant; not as bad as from a pay-day loan shyster but nevertheless still to be kept as far away from as possible. A "good credit card rate" is currently 13-14%, and they often go higher than 30%.
You ask "The car comes back from its MOT with a list of repairs, it costs a bomb and you put that on the credit card - do those monthly repayments jump through the roof? " Of course they do. People who get into domestic financial trouble tend to start off borrowing on their credit card, default, become unable to get a credit card, and then resort to pay-day loan companies or worse. if your income is sufficient to allow you to cover for these unnecessary payments, then think how much better off you would be if you did some forward planning.
In the scenario you suggest the sensible thing to do would be to work out how long you will need to pay for the bill, then get a fixed-term loan from your bank, assuming you haven't been sensible enough to put funds by to cover from what really are likely to be inevitable future costs. Cars wear out. That shouldn't be a surprise.
The essential point on the financing of the stadium is the one I originally made. Finance facilities have to be serviced and repaid, and that will inevitably have an adverse effect on funds being available for other acquisitions until the loans are repaid or the extra income from the larger more flexible stadium more than counteract that.
I just thank providence that Daniel Levy and Matthew Collecott are responsible for the club's finances rather than you.

 

[scaramanga]

Cool so you think it will be Arsenal and Levy that we get a safety certificate, I think not.

I haven't got a clue when the stadium will be ready and have no interest in speculating.

What I am sure of is that if the stadium is ready and proven safe, I don't expect Levy to just shrug and wave goodbye to that money. With what you know of his character, do you?

 

[r-u-s-x]

I haven't got a clue when the stadium will be ready and have no interest in speculating.

What I am sure of is that if the stadium is ready and proven safe, I don't expect Levy to just shrug and wave goodbye to that money. With what you know of his character, do you?

I expect him to as he knows its the rules, he follows the rules when they give us a reduced allocation at Arsenal based on police advice, he complains but no court case of yet.

 

[scaramanga]

I expect him to as he knows its the rules, he follows the rules when they give us a reduced allocation at Arsenal based on police advice, he complains but no court case of yet.

Does a reduced attendance at Arsenal cost us or them?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Does a reduced attendance at Arsenal cost us or them?

They don't reduce the attendance they just sell less tickets to us.

It definitely costs us on the pitch, "customer" satisfaction and potentially positions in the league (£MM).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I despair.
You appear to be serious about comparing borrowing on a credit card with financing a £600 million to £1 billion development project.
Anyone who that thinks borrowing on a credit card to pay any bills that should have been provided for is a good way to run their finances needs lessons in domestic financial management. Interest rates when borrowing on a credit card are exorbitant; not as bad as from a pay-day loan shyster but nevertheless still to be kept as far away from as possible. A "good credit card rate" is currently 13-14%, and they often go higher than 30%.
You ask "The car comes back from its MOT with a list of repairs, it costs a bomb and you put that on the credit card - do those monthly repayments jump through the roof? " Of course they do. People who get into domestic financial trouble tend to start off borrowing on their credit card, default, become unable to get a credit card, and then resort to pay-day loan companies or worse. if your income is sufficient to allow you to cover for these unnecessary payments, then think how much better off you would be if you did some forward planning.
In the scenario you suggest the sensible thing to do would be to work out how long you will need to pay for the bill, then get a fixed-term loan from your bank, assuming you haven't been sensible enough to put funds by to cover from what really are likely to be inevitable future costs. Cars wear out. That shouldn't be a surprise.
The essential point on the financing of the stadium is the one I originally made. Finance facilities have to be serviced and repaid, and that will inevitably have an adverse effect on funds being available for other acquisitions until the loans are repaid or the extra income from the larger more flexible stadium more than counteract that.
I just thank providence that Daniel Levy and Matthew Collecott are responsible for the club's finances rather than you.

Despair all you like, when you so spectacularly miss the point I was making its quite fun.

The point really is quite simple. You borrow money, be that credit card, over draft, mortgage, loan... you pay it back in smaller increments. Here we agree.

You increase that loan, those small increments increase, of course.

But not in a dramatic fashion.

As you put it - this is a £600m - £1bn project. This extra borrowing will be a tiny % of the whole, and consequently wont be a huge impact upon those smaller repayments.

All of which will have been managed by a man who knows this stuff infinitely better than either of us.

 

[scaramanga]

They don't reduce the attendance they just sell less tickets to us.

It definitely costs us on the pitch, "customer" satisfaction and potentially positions in the league (£MM).

I think you're really stretching the point there. Not only is the difference probably immeasurably small, but also virtually impossible to demonstrate in court.

With our games at Wembley, there's a very definite loss to the club for every match we play. Even if we just took the cost to rent Wembley and added half of what they receive in in-stadium revenue, that's a very simple loss to prove. If there's a loss and it's caused by an external party, especially in their inability to fulfil their role, then there's grounds for legal action.

As with most cases, it would never end up in court. It would simply cause the following conversations:

Levy: The new stadium's ready
Popo: We don't want the first match to be Arsenal as we're entirely unsure of our own competence - you'll have to play another match at Wembley.
Levy: That's fine, I'll just sue for the losses incurred
Popo: Maybe we can make Arsenal work

 

[r-u-s-x]

I think you are overestimating his ability to sue, his desire to sue and the police backing down if he did.

 

[scaramanga]

I think you are overestimating his ability to sue, his desire to sue and the police backing down if he did.

In which case I assume you've never been involved in legal action with public entities. I have, and they regularly back down at the very mention of legal action.