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Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Licence To Stand
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Mikey10
Jimmy Neighbour
I doubt it. I said way before Christmas we’d not be in before the start of next season. I’ll stick with that.
This. This. THIS!
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
I have written about this before on this thread, and it is surprisgly similar to a situation that happened with a big shopping mall where I live. Actually it sounds identical!
What happened there was a change in contractor just before fire systems/sprinkler system were to be installed. They used a system they knew (and maybe had availabe/better price etc) instead of the ones that were specified. This system had a slightly less coverage for each sprinkler. That could itself easily be sorted by changing the sprinkler heads. but they had also used different piping with a smaller diameter, meaning less water could be pumped through, so changing the heads would not help, as the piping was too small.
In addition they had also installed sprinklers in areas that were far from finished, so sprinklers ended up being covered.
This was discovered just days before it was announced to open, and led to several months delay, as the entire system had to be replaced.
It seems like this is also the issue at the stadium. It's a mammut task to rectify, as it will be extremely difficult to actually get to certain parts within the build!
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Children are good for that. And cheap too.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
I'd also add that projects of this size rarely if ever deliver on time. The fire system will be one of a number of different things that have had issues (imo). There will be a decent list of relatively small things that need to be finished still. Not just one fire system - imo. If it was it would have been addressed far quicker - a couple of months as with the shopping centre?
Crossrail will be years late and X billion over budget. It's one of those things, you push for one season away and it ends up 2, but if you'd planned for 2 it would have been more. Can't blame DL for pushing and being adventurous.
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mudshark
Chris Armstrong
Sounds to me like the only thing you could blame Levy for is trusting people to do their jobs. If the cause of all this has been deliberate corner-cutting against the design spec to fatten their margins, I hope those responsible are made to regret it till the (not too distant) day their company dies.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
I’m meeting some directors soon from Johnson Controls who are doing the work so I’ll ask
It used to be Tyco and before that Wormauld Ansell
There is a guy online claiming they have fitted the wrong sprinkler heads but that’s a straight swap out I’d true as their basically clever plumbing fittings
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Not necessarily
I’d argue that he chose a main management contractor in MACE who aren’t a stadium builder
The contracting methodology we have used is kinda odd, in tha all the packages are let and paid for by THFC, but managed by MACE. I get why as it takes away mark up and margin but if I was buying this (it’s what I do for living for a number of clients) I’d have told them no margin under the model for subcontractors, make your money on your management fee
If the issue is down it the mechanical fire suppression I find it odd that they havent fixed it as these are thin you can see.
I genuinely assumed it was telemetry and controls, buried in walls and trunking
The good thing is if it is the sprinklers then JCI have deep pockets, although they cap their liabilities normally as a small multiple of contract value and very very rarely flex. I’d guess that a system for a building this big would cost around £12/15m all in. The6 would normally cap it a two times contract value as standard
Also their insured in Ireland not England and in euros (I’ve got loads of contracts with them) so exchange rate changes have an impact against big claims
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
Interesting, thanks.
imcallingbullsh*t
Steven Caulker
So my view on this (from being involved in bit commercial / IT type projects) most of my information is from Stac on Twitter, Skyscaper City and few other contacts involved from HP (who were involved in IT side)
A) Not the clubs fault apart from we tried to be way more ambitious than possible, however this was encouraged by employed contractors, yes if we said 2 years it may have been 18 months, but trying to achieve in 14 months made it 2 years (on basis we get in April time)
B) seems to be Tyco employed agency staff who were probably under massive pressure to fit *** devices (safety system, fire, smoke, etc) per day, however as other departments were in the way it sounds like they didnt follow the plans, which then means the next team in are likely to, accidentally cover the device or cut through a cable as everything wasn't in the right place.
C) Stac on twitter reports that 2000 extra devices were then added, I have absolutely zero understanding how that would ever happen, seems mental, but I believe him, and that the plan was fire Marshalls reporting the alert rather than the central system detecting them, but this has been turned down or was unworkable
D) from a software point of view you've created a management panel to support 2500 devices and you plugin 4500 its gonna blow the software, and that will take months to fix, people will say otherwise but its not happening
Then I think club are stuffed, if its Tyco or Mace who are at fault I imagine there are penalty clauses in play, even though we manage the project. In which case we cant announce a delay as that would mean we made the decision and would struggle to claim the penalty clause. Instead we are stuck in this stupid loop of having to allow the contractor to fail so that we can then make a claim.
Thing i'm most annoyed about is that its so complex at this stage in terms of commercial management it allows the conspiracy and I told you so merchants to have a field day,
A) Not the clubs fault apart from we tried to be way more ambitious than possible, however this was encouraged by employed contractors, yes if we said 2 years it may have been 18 months, but trying to achieve in 14 months made it 2 years (on basis we get in April time)
B) seems to be Tyco employed agency staff who were probably under massive pressure to fit *** devices (safety system, fire, smoke, etc) per day, however as other departments were in the way it sounds like they didnt follow the plans, which then means the next team in are likely to, accidentally cover the device or cut through a cable as everything wasn't in the right place.
C) Stac on twitter reports that 2000 extra devices were then added, I have absolutely zero understanding how that would ever happen, seems mental, but I believe him, and that the plan was fire Marshalls reporting the alert rather than the central system detecting them, but this has been turned down or was unworkable
D) from a software point of view you've created a management panel to support 2500 devices and you plugin 4500 its gonna blow the software, and that will take months to fix, people will say otherwise but its not happening
Then I think club are stuffed, if its Tyco or Mace who are at fault I imagine there are penalty clauses in play, even though we manage the project. In which case we cant announce a delay as that would mean we made the decision and would struggle to claim the penalty clause. Instead we are stuck in this stupid loop of having to allow the contractor to fail so that we can then make a claim.
Thing i'm most annoyed about is that its so complex at this stage in terms of commercial management it allows the conspiracy and I told you so merchants to have a field day,
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Pretty much this. Levy trusted the contractors to deliver - they were either incompetent or they cut corners. Blaming him for the people he hires over-promising and under-delivering is just not fair.
If anything, you can blame Levy for not holding their balls close enough to the fire - for a man legendarily good at doing that, it's a shame he hasn't been able to bleed some of them over these delays. Or maybe he has, I don't know.
Everyone's hurting over this. The club are hurting, financially and in terms of our reputation. The businesses that depend on matchday traffic in Haringey are hurting, which means the Council's hurting too in terms of revenue. No one wants to keep the stadium unfinished any longer than they absolutely have to.
But it's about safety. And I'd rather they made sure everything was absolutely safe before they make a move - no matter how long it takes. I don't want our fans to end up getting hurt (or worse) because something goes wrong with the place.
mudshark
Chris Armstrong
I've got absolutely no specific knowledge about this project other than what I've read on here, really, but I tend to think to some extent, modern business practice has evolved in such a way as to make these things more likely than not—arguably even rewarding companies for bad behaviour. Outsourcing, myriad contractors, subcontractors and agencies all at arm's length, ostensibly providing excellence in terms of specialist expertise, but also blurring lines of responsibility and making it harder and more expensive for clients to pursue stuff through the courts when problems are identified. That kind of system in itself is pathological in my view.
Maybe what we need...
is a montage.
Maybe what we need...
is a montage.
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Look, basically it’s fooked!
Let’s move back to the old place, not mention this again, and just pretend like it never ever happened.
If we’d all just been a little more open minded and allowed ‘safe seat-sharing’ i.e. letting someone sit on your lap for the duration of the game, we could have doubled the maximum attendance to 72,000 immediately, increased both atmosphere and intimacy alike, and all at no extra cost.
Sorted. I thank you.
Let’s move back to the old place, not mention this again, and just pretend like it never ever happened.
If we’d all just been a little more open minded and allowed ‘safe seat-sharing’ i.e. letting someone sit on your lap for the duration of the game, we could have doubled the maximum attendance to 72,000 immediately, increased both atmosphere and intimacy alike, and all at no extra cost.
Sorted. I thank you.
Never go full Victimpool
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Exactly, the project was overly ambitious and is, even with the delays impressive when you take into account the knocking down of old ground and building in the footprint whilst playing games etc. As you say how many porjects are delayed and are nowhere near as ambitious.
The thing is people see a few pictures of finished areas and take that as the whole ground being finished when there was ALOT not finished.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Same, I want a world class stadium when its ready, that goes for safety and looks and feel. I will take the delays if it means the ground is A1 tip top when it opens
Can someone please step me through the process by which popo will stop our first match being against Arsenal?
As I understand it, we will get the stadium ready and get it signed off by popo and by the council/various H&S nerds. Once it's been signed off, as per our agreement with the PL we will inform the PL that we are switching our matches to the new WHL. We already have an agreement with Haringey for us to play football matches at the new stadium as this was dealt with at planning.
So how do popo stop us playing our first match whenever the fudge we like, and if they did why would they not be liable for our losses caused in doing so?
As I understand it, we will get the stadium ready and get it signed off by popo and by the council/various H&S nerds. Once it's been signed off, as per our agreement with the PL we will inform the PL that we are switching our matches to the new WHL. We already have an agreement with Haringey for us to play football matches at the new stadium as this was dealt with at planning.
So how do popo stop us playing our first match whenever the fudge we like, and if they did why would they not be liable for our losses caused in doing so?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Because the building costs will likely be drawn from a credit facility specifically for the project, and not the clubs regular finances?