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Tom Carroll

parklane1 said:
Pass and move quickly, always finding in space, he reminds me a lot of Modric ( but not as good obviously), the others you mentioned have other talents.
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I'd say Mason is doing pretty much the same. But... I've followed Spurs for 20 years now and have been a member of forums and discussions for about 9 years. To be honest, I've never followed forums and/or messageboards of other clubs, but it is quite sickening how so-called fans treat and abuse our own players, players who have come through our own youth system. I can understand banter and I can understand giving stick to players who simply cannot be bothered to turn up at games, but I haven't seen Tom Carroll doing any of that to even closely merit such behaviour.
 
milo said:
I think that it is harsh to be concentrating on negatives after only three league starts for us.
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This is not the first year or first time he is playing with Spurs. I have kept an eye on him. Tom has a good pass but he did make bad simple passes in the games he has played so far. It is heart in mouth time for me sometimes when he is with the ball. He does have good creativity and he has a good workrate but he has made bad passes. He will become a better player once he improves on that. Now if someone says lack of serious match practice - then ok.
 
parklane1 said:
Pass and move quickly, always finding in space, he reminds me a lot of Modric ( but not as good obviously), the others you mentioned have other talents.
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Yeah i used to see similarities with Modric, but I have noticed teams standoff Carroll (and Walker, Roes etc) because he is not going to dribble past players or hurt you with his passing like Modric would. I would be impressed if he did that passing in the final third but he doesn't and think the other team is happy to let him have the ball.. I think he is like Leon Britton/Leon Osman poss Joe Allen, nice tidy players just not really going to hurt you.
 
Ginola99 said:
Ive watch Carroll play 20-30 times. A good few years ago when he was first coming through the youth setup I was a big fan but he hasn't adapted or added to his game for senior football. The same as Townsend in a way.
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Is it fair to judge that when he has been in and out of the team, has been played in a number of different positions, has mostly come on as a sub and has spent a fair amount of time out on loan?
 
Ginola99 said:
Yeah i used to see similarities with Modric, but I have noticed teams standoff Carroll (and Walker, Roes etc) because he is not going to dribble past players or hurt you with his passing like Modric would. I would be impressed if he did that passing in the final third but he doesn't and think the other team is happy to let him have the ball.. I think he is like Leon Britton/Leon Osman poss Joe Allen, nice tidy players just not really going to hurt you.
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Maybe that is true, however he has only played less then 20 lge games for us ( and most of them as a sub), he is only 23 and I am hoping that given more games his confidence will rise and he will then express himself more.
 
afsoc4life said:
This is not the first year or first time he is playing with Spurs. I have kept an eye on him. Tom has a good pass but he did make bad simple passes in the games he has played so far. It is heart in mouth time for me sometimes when he is with the ball. He does have good creativity and he has a good workrate but he has made bad passes. He will become a better player once he improves on that. Now if someone says lack of serious match practice - then ok.
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The truth is that your observations of his performance against Everton are not borne out by the facts.
 
milo said:
The truth is that your observations of his performance against Everton are not borne out by the facts.
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Wut facts? Tom didnt misplace passes in the first half vs. Everton? He didnt work hard and show some creativity vs. Everton?
 
milo said:
Is it fair to judge that when he has been in and out of the team, has been played in a number of different positions, has mostly come on as a sub and has spent a fair amount of time out on loan?
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Abuse - def not.. Judge/form an opinon at this level - dont know.. Has he really played that many positions? But the harsh reality is that his contract is coming to an end, we have a number of players in midfield and someone will judge whether he is worth holding on to.. I think I have seen him play enough games (I agree mostly in U21, youth football) to have the opinion that he wont be good enough for us long term.
 
Ginola99 said:
Spot on for me.. He is a safe passer and in my opinion makes unnecessary movements to get involved in play, just to have a touch, just to make a pass.. I used to watch Capoue do it and drove me mad, running 10ft from a player to take the ball off them and give it back or play it to another player that the original player with the ball could have done. The top midfielders don't do that.. Watch them make movement by continuously jogging and away from their marker but not towards the ball
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You are saying that these passes seem rather unnecessary and often serve no purpose, and sometimes they don't, but IMO that basic recycling of possession however simple can serve to drag an opponent out of position and open up space for a team mate, or allow the team to get their shape back, or slow the tempo of the play down, or many other reasons. Sometimes it serves a purpose to do this and sometimes it does not but it is something I certainly would coach myself. I prefer a player that shows for the ball than one that hides everyday of the week. Barca or any possession focused team do this ball recycling in a very similar fashion ad naseum in order to rest on the ball and make the other team work. Sometimes slowing the game down is the exact right thing to do depending on circumstance.

On Tom Carroll, I do like him and his style. Xavi was a favourite of mine and I see similar traits in their playing style. Delighted it is finally happening for the young man. He needs a few tweaks to improve his game but who doesn't.
 
It's what modric did a lot of to get players out of position. The metronome type player is massively invaluable in good passing sides and they keep the ball moving

Static play and static passes are easy to defend. Moving balls and moving players much harder

The strange thing is the basic passing has got poorer and players struggle with give and goes now too
 
I can see from how I have written that it would appear I dont understand/agree with recycling possession which is very far from the truth. I know that we coach it at youth level, making angles, being brave on the ball (I have big issues with players that hide), resting in possession but there are ways to do it.. I avoided the Barca comparison in my first response as they are such a step ahead of everyone else that attempts it, and on an individual level Xavi/Ineista was as well. Xavi/Ineista would not run towards the ball just to give it back, they would make angles to receive and move it on. A qualified coach could do a much better job at explaining it better than I am.. Any offers?
 
In between replies I have been watching some Modric videos for examples but obviously they only show his assists and not the more mundane stuff.. but oh what a player.. Surely it must be time for them to get bored with him and for him to come home?
 
afsoc4life said:
Wut facts? Tom didnt misplace passes in the first half vs. Everton? He didnt work hard and show some creativity vs. Everton?
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You criticised him for misplacing passes in this game. He misplaced less than his team mates in comparable positions and made far more passes too.
 
I have been a fan of Carroll's for a long time now (as anyone who can be bothered to trawl through my post history will find out.) I was disappointed that he didn't get a run in the first team earlier.

The thing that I like about Carroll is that he is able to move the ball forwards quickly, often one touch, and has a good eye for forward runs, often passing through channels into space for people to run onto. He also looks for quick one-twos. He is a tidy player, and has a lot of energy. And he can shoot Ok too. The ability to make quick, incisive forward passes is a very valuable commodity in the modern game. The pass won't always come off, but it is likely to lead to some of the few chances that we will get in a game.

I don't worry about his lack of physicality too much. Providing you have the vision and technique you are more likely to end up being fouled after you have moved the ball on than be a liability due to lack of tackling. And as the stats show it is more about pressuring, nicking semi-loose ball, covering and tracking back these days than the balls-out, take the ball, man and everything within 15 yards, tackling of the 70s.

Carroll is far from the finished article or the complete player. He will get out-muscled at times, and he could do with being a bit quicker. Overall, though, I think his positives far outweigh his negatives. He will benefit from a regular run out. His team mates will learn to trust him with ball even when tightly marked - not something that I'm sure all of them do at the moment, as he doesn't always get the easy pass to feet even though he is demanding it. He will build a rapport with the other players.

I don't think we should turn this into a Carroll vs Mason vs Dembele zero sum game, as they have different playing styles and each offers something different. No doubt, there will be games where each of them has an important contribution to make.
 
milo said:
You criticised him for misplacing passes in this game. He misplaced less than his team mates in comparable positions and made far more passes too.
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I am lost. How is my statement false that he misplaced passes in the game? Did I say he had zero passing accuracy?
 
Anyone criticising Carroll for misplacing a pass should go back and watch AVB's season and a half on loop for the rest of your life and toss yourself silly.

As I've said before Carroll's game is changing completely under Pochettino. He has only been coached by him for a few months and had to change his entire game.
But he has strengths thats suit Poch's style. The guy knows exactly where he's gonna pass it before he gets it. He frequently took just one touch on the ball against Everton. This gives us such a increase in tempo.
One thing I saw frequently though on Sunday was he came back to get the ball off Vertonghen and Alderweireld. They however had been instructed to frequently hit diagonals so had no interest in playing it to him in that position.
But I'd also question do some of our team fancy playing it to him in the middle of the pitch when there is a opposition player nearby when he's demanding it off them. If it was Dembele they would have no problem. Eriksen was the player that seemed to trust Carroll with the ball the most.
 
Modric THFC said:
Anyone criticising Carroll for misplacing a pass should go back and watch AVB's season and a half on loop for the rest of your life and toss yourself silly.

As I've said before Carroll's game is changing completely under Pochettino. He has only been coached by him for a few months and had to change his entire game.
But he has strengths thats suit Poch's style. The guy knows exactly where he's gonna pass it before he gets it. He frequently took just one touch on the ball against Everton. This gives us such a increase in tempo.
One thing I saw frequently though on Sunday was he came back to get the ball off Vertonghen and Alderweireld. They however had been instructed to frequently hit diagonals so had no interest in playing it to him in that position.
But I'd also question do some of our team fancy playing it to him in the middle of the pitch when there is a opposition player nearby when he's demanding it off them. If it was Dembele they would have no problem. Eriksen was the player that seemed to trust Carroll with the ball the most.
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Disagree. When AVB used him it was also to up our passing tempo and his game was fairly similar. At Swansea it was more of the same.

A midfielder wanting the ball, but a central defender going for a different option seems like good play to me. Means that we're giving the player on the ball more than one passing option. Particularly with the kind of success we're seeing from Alderweireld's long balls.
 
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