Toby Alderweireld

[Baleforce]

Also, if United are interested in swapsies and are desperate for Toby, maybe there is another player they have who José seems to be at odds with who would strengthen us, a French CM with a passion for hair highlights...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I like martial too, a lot, but it’s a position of strength, cash to sign a shutdown CM could be more use.

I have no idea what this means!

Position of strength? Between us and Utd its a deadlock, it seems, so neither has the upper hand. In Levys shoes though I would be confident in Mourinho having a tantrum and Woodward just paying up.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You only sell Toby to United for money and lots of it if we have identified players already and the deals are ready to be completed immediately. If the expectation was that we get Martial as part of the deal and United are unwilling to let him go then at this stage in the transfer window, money in the bank is no good and we don't sell. Selling him to a rival without a replacement either directly or in another position where we need strengthening doesn't make sense imo, we just weaken ourselves and strengthen a rival.

People cite the walker sale to City. For me that weakened us as we were unable to adequately replace him and the right side of defence with Toby out was a problem in the key games. Why do we want to repeat that?

Walker most definitely strengthened City. Would they have signed a good right back from elsewhere anyway? Would having Walker sulking for the next year have actually weakened us had we kept him?

Sometimes there is no optimal move that strengthens us while weakening rivals. Sometimes we just have to weigh everything up and do the best long term thing to keep us on our own track. City would had improved regardless. They will have won the league last year regardless. The choice was to do we get paid over the odds and move out a sulky player that we’ve already dropped, or do we ‘make a stand’ for a player we no longer really want. We did the right thing for us. It’s good strategy.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Also, if United are interested in swapsies and are desperate for Toby, maybe there is another player they have who José seems to be at odds with who would strengthen us, a French CM with a passion for hair highlights...

Could yo imagine us taking their marguee signing?! Never going to happen but would be hilarious. And I suspect he and Poch would get on very well.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I have no idea what this means!

Position of strength? Between us and Utd its a deadlock, it seems, so neither has the upper hand. In Levys shoes though I would be confident in Mourinho having a tantrum and Woodward just paying up.

Think @galeforce is saying we are fairly well stocked in AM’s position.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Walker most definitely strengthened City. Would they have signed a good right back from elsewhere anyway? Would having Walker sulking for the next year have actually weakened us had we kept him?

Has he? Cant honestly say I would agree. If he has its marginal. Couldnt be any more non-plussed about selling him to be honest.

The only real concern I have is if it sets a precedent for every summer having a player agitate to move and then get that move.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Think @galeforce is saying we are fairly well stocked in AM’s position.

I see, in which case Im inclined to disagree - I think another AM is a big need this summer.

 

[Baleforce]

I have no idea what this means!

Position of strength? Between us and Utd its a deadlock, it seems, so neither has the upper hand. In Levys shoes though I would be confident in Mourinho having a tantrum and Woodward just paying up.

As in, we have loads of attacking midfielders already.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As in, we have loads of attacking midfielders already.

So I see, and no - I dont agree. I think another wide forward will be a big plus to this team - a potential game changer.

Not least as another option to help win games, but also as a means to play Alli and Eriksen more centrally where I feel they are best.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Has he? Cant honestly say I would agree. If he has its marginal. Couldnt be any more non-plussed about selling him to be honest.

The only real concern I have is if it sets a precedent for every summer having a player agitate to move and then get that move.

I think he did, because full back was the position they most struggled with in Pep’s first year.

I’m not worried about precedent. Most players will do what is right for their careers, and with the new stadium we can now offer good money. Toby shat the bed with the way he handled his contract negotiation and Walker wanted to be up north. I can’t see many at risk players who would now want to go to our PL rivals. Can only see Eriksen fancying Barca one day and Dele fancying the glitz of Madrid. With jury being out on whether Sanchez decides to become a Spurs legend or hop to one of them / Bayern in a few years.

We’ll make a stand with any player we want to keep, who we deem important, of that I have no doubt.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The thing with Arsenal is that they were all first team players they didn’t want to lose. We’ve just played most of last season without him. And Poch clearly wants him gone.

He will improve United but I don’t see other European clubs coming in for him. He’s 29 and just coming off an injury prone season. Who do Barca et al have at CB and why would they want Toby?

Barca have Lenglet, Umtiti and Pique. Mina is on his way out. Pique is getting old, and they might need a fourth CB given that reality.
Madrid have Varane, Ramos and Nacho, I think. As with Barca, Ramos is getting old, and they might need a fourth CB given that reality.
Bayern have *just* Hummels and Sule. Boateng is on his way out. If Toby goes anywhere, Bayern is probably the best bet outside of England.
PSG have Marquinhos, Thiago Silva and Kimpembe (I think). Thiago Silva is getting old, an they might need a fourth CB given that reality.

I don’t think this is like Carrick or Berbatov because it’s as much wanting him gone to maintain our standards of respect, our team spirit, our culture, our buy in to the plan etc etc which you may not think are important but are key reasons as to why we’ve been able to be so consistent.

If United came for Eriksen I think we would laugh it off, similarly Dele. The only reason they are getting Toby potentially is because we don’t mind letting him go. It’s part of making the right long term decision. Not the best decision for this month, or even for this season, but what is the best way to keep us moving on an upward trajectory over the next 3 to 5 years? That may be about getting one of the last players out (Toby alongside Rose) who never seemed fully committed to building his career here, like Jan did, like Kane does. It also may be about getting him out now because it might be too painful a transition to try and replace 2 CBs in one summer (maybe Jan won’t be on the way out but maybe we want to future proof him next year too) so it’s best to start that transition now.

With most of our other players, I think we’re in a position to offer them good money - if the Kane contract is anything to go by - where the only move they really will ever want to make is Barca or Madrid (I’m thinking Eriksen here in a couple of years could be tempted to satisfy a life long ambition in spite of what money we may offer).

And if Eriksen runs down his contract and has only one year left on it by this time next summer?

Of course, Poch will exclude him from the squad, and of course then the narrative will become 'we don't mind letting him go.'

But, in the end, if this goes through ,we will sell him to whichever club rocks up and arrogantly throws us whatever cash we can weakly, quaveringly demand. United, City, maybe even Liverpool.

That is the precedent we will set. And so on with Alli et al. And I don't think Eriksen would mind going to City, for example - who are much likelier to win the CL and the PL than we are, or will be for a long time.

We could have afforded to pay Toby good money - probably not much less than United will offer (considering their CBs reportedly aren’t earning that much) but it wasn’t about that. By all accounts, he - or he allowed his agent to - dingdong us around by having Poch go to bat for a new contract for him, getting it, and then moving the goal posts. Some things - the standards and the respect for the people at this club and the way we do things which have dragged us up from being best of the rest to one of the most consistent sides in the country - are more important than worrying about whether this means United are stronger for this season. Levy and Poch will be thinking long term.

And that’s the right thing to do. To be honest I’m sure they calculated the same thing with Walker - that City could go and buy another right back from wherever they wanted and they still probably would have ran away with the League last year. But we would have kept a sulky player that wanted to move back up north, who we’d already dropped for the biggest games too. We may as well have gotten an inflated fee for him, because last year probably wasn’t going to be our year getting ahead of City because of the Wembley adjustment.

Walker specifically wanted to move back up north. We don't know if Toby does. Knock the price down and offer him elsewhere, see who bites.

Toby is the last of our squad I can see that would sulk and be a risk to morale if he didn’t get a move (Rose is too far removed from a consistent run to have a real case that he deserves one). And the long term consideration here is, can we sell abroad for the same price or near to it, or even for good money but a knock down compared to United? If not, what will United do? Move for Maguire? Move for someone else? What will we do? Keep Toby on the bench for a year and sell him for cheap next summer? Not be able to bring in De Ligt or Maguire ourselves? United will sign someone regardless when it’s a position they want to strengthen, so we may as well get paid over the odds for it.

That assumes that we will want to bring in De Ligt or Maguire, or will want to pay the fee required to get them. We might well end up getting Grealish instead - or an N'Someone from a mid-table club in Ligue 1.

The money is irrelevant, since apparently we won't be sinking it into the stadium but instead will use it to finance our transfers. I'd rather take the hit and sell him for cheaper than that, as long as we also make clear that it's our way or the highway when it comes to our rivals on these shores.

And just to be clear, I wouldn’t be advocating this approach with Kane, Eriksen, Dele, Son, Dier (and the thing you seem to have ignored is we absolutely DID make a stand against United with Dier, which was the comment Jose made in relation to) but for Toby - a player we have already shown we can do without, who we want to move on for the sake of our own standards and harmony, and so we can get paid over the odds to find the best replacement for us. If we sell Toby and sign De Ligt, it will be a great move. If we sell Toby and get Martial, also a great move. They will sign a CB anyway.

It wouldn't be your choice, like it wasn't Arsenal's choice when their players started demanding moves. Like I said, Eriksen will be down to one year on his contract come next year, and I can bet you that the same folks who preach caving to United this year will be making the same rationalizations next year.

At some stage, we either act like a club with f*cking ambition, or resign ourselves to acting as a feeder to the clubs around us forevermore - stadium or no stadium.

Arsenal took the latter route. We apparently want to follow them down that path.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Is any overseas club after Toby? I have only seen reference to Utd being interested. It’s a bit like when people said we should only sell Walker abroad. But a) he had decided on City and b) there was no one else coming in for him anyway. If Poch has decided Toby isn’t going to play a significant part in our first team (and whilst none of us know for sure, its clear something is not right between them), then we have to make the best of a bad situation. Sell him, hopefully get Martial as part of the deal if that’s who Poch wants. Or someone else in the few remaining days.
Whilst him going to Utd is not ideal, I’m not convinced it will be as much to our detriment as some might think (although we do need a replacement). Keeping him and not playing him apart from the odd cup game is just a waste. A waste of wages, a waste of a squad place, and detrimental to the overall squad harmony.
We can given Utd (especially a Utd in Mourinho melt down) a run for their money, regardless of who Toby plays for.

PSG were mentioned a while ago. Other than that, the top clubs could all do with a CB like Toby. Offer him around for cheaper than the price we're quoting, and see who bites. Reassess afterward.

No Martial, no Toby. Simple as. Anything else would be folding like a pack of cards in pursuit of the best balance sheet. Which I had thought Levy had overcome his temptation for - I'm no longer as certain.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think he did, because full back was the position they most struggled with in Pep’s first year.

I’m not worried about precedent. Most players will do what is right for their careers, and with the new stadium we can now offer good money. Toby shat the bed with the way he handled his contract negotiation and Walker wanted to be up north. I can’t see many at risk players who would now want to go to our PL rivals. Can only see Eriksen fancying Barca one day and Dele fancying the glitz of Madrid. With jury being out on whether Sanchez decides to become a Spurs legend or hop to one of them / Bayern in a few years.

We’ll make a stand with any player we want to keep, who we deem important, of that I have no doubt.

I really dont think he was a game changer for them. Just a decent player doing a job, like any competent RB could have done. Though I am aware I hold the unpopular opinion of not actually rating Walker that highly anyway.

It is worth pointing out, the Toby shat the bed stuff is completely unsubstantiated (that Im aware) and should be given the required scepticism.

I dont envisage players just wanting to leave, and Levy has stuck to his guns before - Im just aware of the perception that can stick with players getting moves they agitated for in consecutive years. The fact we were/are happy enough for them to go is almost beside the point.

 

[StephenH]

Has he? Cant honestly say I would agree. If he has its marginal. Couldnt be any more non-plussed about selling him to be honest.

The only real concern I have is if it sets a precedent for every summer having a player agitate to move and then get that move.

If they “agitate” they all bloody agitate!
Can see very few scenarios where you keep an “agitating“ sort after and profitable asset.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

PSG were mentioned a while ago. Other than that, the top clubs could all do with a CB like Toby. Offer him around for cheaper than the price we're quoting, and see who bites. Reassess afterward.

No Martial, no Toby. Simple as. Anything else would be folding like a pack of cards in pursuit of the best balance sheet. Which I had thought Levy had overcome his temptation for - I'm no longer as certain.

Not sure it needs us to “offer him around”. Won’t his agent be doing that to eek out interest?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If they “agitate” they all bloody agitate!
Can see very few scenarios where you keep an “agitating“ sort after and profitable asset.

Like with Modric, it neednt end badly - and it served as a good example that player power isnt everything.

Id almost want to keep Alderweireld here just to prove that point to the squad and any teams looking to poach our players.

 

[DubaiSpur]

If he's settled in England why wouldn't he move to another country? I don't think i really need to explain myself further there tbh mate

You said London. Be specific. If he doesn't want to move to another country, one wonders why he agreed to sign for us in the first place, given that we were (upon his arrival) seen as a club more likely to sell to Madrid than to Manchester f*cking United.

60m will help us get our targets in, had we had the money earlier in the window we may have got some players in for pre season - you keep highlighting Grealish as though that holds any importance, we would have had a bigger budget earlier in the window so it would have made it easier to secute our msin targets, whoever they are - which is a better position to be in than were we to hold on to a player who is frozen out of the first team.

So, in the end, we have to sell before we rummage around the bargain bin, same as always. No surprise or argument there, but my position is that 60m right now is not worth it, because we'll only end up getting Jack f*cking Grealish. Right now, that is.

At this stage, the principle of being impossible to deal with is a major part of what keeps our rivals at bay and prevents them from turning us into Arsenal 2006-2014. That is worth more than Jack Grealish - infinitely so.

Not sure it needs us to “offer him around”. Won’t his agent be doing that to eek out interest?

Nope. Not if we quote 75m to all comers. We need to be willing too - or seen to be willing. Mention to overseas clubs that we'd like to sell for lower as long as he's out of the Prem, and see who bites.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Barca have Lenglet, Umtiti and Pique. Mina is on his way out. Pique is getting old, and they might need a fourth CB given that reality.
Madrid have Varane, Ramos and Nacho, I think. As with Barca, Ramos is getting old, and they might need a fourth CB given that reality.
Bayern have *just* Hummels and Sule. Boateng is on his way out. If Toby goes anywhere, Bayern is probably the best bet outside of England.
PSG have Marquinhos, Thiago Silva and Kimpembe (I think). Thiago Silva is getting old, an they might need a fourth CB given that reality.




And if Eriksen runs down his contract and has only one year left on it by this time next summer?

Of course, Poch will exclude him from the squad, and of course then the narrative will become 'we don't mind letting him go.'

But, in the end, if this goes through ,we will sell him to whichever club rocks up and arrogantly throws us whatever cash we can weakly, quaveringly demand. United, City, maybe even Liverpool.

That is the precedent we will set. And so on with Alli et al. And I don't think Eriksen would mind going to City, for example - who are much likelier to win the CL and the PL than we are, or will be for a long time.



Walker specifically wanted to move back up north. We don't know if Toby does. Knock the price down and offer him elsewhere, see who bites.



That assumes that we will want to bring in De Ligt or Maguire, or will want to pay the fee required to get them. We might well end up getting Grealish instead - or an N'Someone from a mid-table club in Ligue 1.

The money is irrelevant, since apparently we won't be sinking it into the stadium but instead will use it to finance our transfers. I'd rather take the hit and sell him for cheaper than that, as long as we also make clear that it's our way or the highway when it comes to our rivals on these shores.



It wouldn't be your choice, like it wasn't Arsenal's choice when their players started demanding moves. Like I said, Eriksen will be down to one year on his contract come next year, and I can bet you that the same folks who preach caving to United this year will be making the same rationalizations next year.

At some stage, we either act like a club with f*cking ambition, or resign ourselves to acting as a feeder to the clubs around us forevermore - stadium or no stadium.

Arsenal took the latter route. We apparently want to follow them down that path.

There’s an awful lot of ‘they could use a 4th CB’ in your post which I can’t see Toby being eager to sign up for, even if those clubs were to move for him. He’d be first 11 every week with United and would push to go there.

As for everything else, I’m really not fussed about precedent. The Eriksen situation is all ifs and buts and the likelihood is he will get a good new contract with us with our new stadium wage budget. But if he or anyone else pushes for a move, and we then drop them because harmony and standards are a bigger strategic advantage for us than any one player, then yes that will be the narrative. Because harmony and standards are more important to us than any one player.

We have ambition but we also have our place in the food chain, so we just need to do the best thing for us bearing in mind all of the other moving parts. I don’t think keeping a sulking Toby around while United sign someone else, we get less money next summer and have just spent a year with an over priced CB on our bench is in any way beneficial for us.

Setting a side that the Toby issue is - if the rumours are to be believed - about respect and trust because Poch went to bat for him and got shown up, squad management is about having everyone in the squad comfortable in their role. With enough depth but with enough good tension that players know they have a genuine opportunity for first 11 football but know that they can’t let their standards slip or they’ll be on the bench. We have this tension right across the squad and it motivates all the players to keep improving and keep their focus. Trippier / Aurier, Rose / Davies, Dier, Wanyama, Lamela / Dele / Moura / Son.

We have players that are stand outs that will start every week regardless in Lloris, Jan, Eriksen and Kane. And we have obvious back ups like Foyth that are happy to improve. If Toby believes he is an obvious first 11 pick every week, and isn’t comfortable being a back up of fighting for his place, relentlessly trying to improve, then he will be a bad apple that will impact the entire squad. Particularly if he’s already come close to a move. Those standards, that relentless desire for improvement, the right level of tension, that’s all part of the roostertail that keeps us moving forward and keeps us consistent.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You said London. Be specific. If he doesn't want to move to another country, one wonders why he agreed to sign for us in the first place, given that we were (upon his arrival) seen as a club more likely to sell to Madrid than to Manchester f*cking United.



So, in the end, we have to sell before we rummage around the bargain bin, same as always. No surprise or argument there, but my position is that 60m right now is not worth it, because we'll only end up getting Jack f*cking Grealish. Right now, that is.

At this stage, the principle of being impossible to deal with is a major part of what keeps our rivals at bay and prevents them from turning us into Arsenal 2006-2014. That is worth more than Jack Grealish - infinitely so.



Nope. Not if we quote 75m to all comers. We need to be willing too - or seen to be willing. Mention to overseas clubs that we'd like to sell for lower as long as he's out of the Prem, and see who bites.

Such a straw man - sell Toby and get Grealish is how you’re framing this whole thing. #1 the two signings could not be more unrelated. #2 you’re ignoring all of the other factors and considerations in Toby’s potential sale.

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry, 60 mill would be fine by me, Toby is no longer one of our best players IMO. In fact, Kane, Dele, Eriksen, Lloris, Vertonghen, Davo, Dier, Trippier and Son are all MUCH more valuable to us IMO. That makes him somewhere around 9th or 10th most important player at the club right now to my eyes. How often did he play last season? How often the season before? What was our record with him in the side last season versus without? And why would Pochettino "bin" one of our "biggest players"? Come on folks, bye bye Toby. Honestly, I don't trust him as a player any more...ironically, my trust (which had wavered) was kicked hard by another early-season error last season at Old Trafford, which led to Dier getting pelters from people for not covering properly and us losing 1-0. But Toby was always the main offender there for me. Neither are particularly popular views I know, but there we go...

p.s. the first, BTW, was home against Burnley. Tripps got pelters for not covering Wood running in behind off the back, but Toby switched off for a vital second and allowed the move to develop. He was not doing that in seasons prior.