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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?


  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's a common mistake that a lot of fans make. That football is all about buying the best players.

Well, the unfortunate news is that if that's what it's all about, you'd better get used to 5th place (barring occasional **** ups from the top 4). Sporting Director or not, we will never beat the bigger spenders over the long term that way. We may discover the odd Modric/Bale/Berbatov but they will always have half a team of those players.

In order to regularly compete with them, our team will have to continually play as more than the sum of its parts. A good motivator (which the current incumbent of our hot seat may well be) can get us playing to the extent of our players' abilities, but we need them to do much more if we're to compete. Without a system that runs through the club from top to bottom, and without that system being better than that of our opponents, we can't get where we all want to be.

As much as I hate to say it, our nomadic neighbours are the perfect example of what we need to do. Can you honestly say you can see Sherwood being the architect and implementer of such a system like Wenger? I just don't see it.

So like I said, I'm doing everything I can to ignore the long term because Levy 's clearly not doing anything about it, so I might as well just enjoy each match as an individual entity.

I find all the talk of systems quite interesting. I think the logic behind the idea articulated (and bolded) in your post is perfectly sound in theory, but I'm interested in exactly what is meant by a 'system' in practice?

My initial reaction is to say that surely every manager / team has a system - for example, under Sherwood our system has changed to one in which we get more players into the box and play riskier, quicker, more direct passes.

But my second reaction is to ask if the defining feature of having a system is that the manager has more direct control (at a micro level) over what players do when they're on the pitch? So rather than leaving them to do whatever comes naturally to them when they're on the pitch, they're more drilled in certain kinds of patterns of movement and passing, for example?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can anyone remember the name of the supposedly scientific coach who said this not so long ago?

I have never used Prozone because I don't believe in it. You always have to be very, very careful with statistics.

It doesn't mean that we negate them completely; we just don't use them to the extent that people might think. We have a scientific department that deals with that but, we don't prepare our training or players based on the physical data we get from matches.

It depends from coach to coach and it's different, different approaches. The mind and how the player feels is much more important for us, rather than statistical data.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Recent good results aside, one of the things that has impressed me with Sherwood is his poise. There are no beady eyes going on there, he's calm and does not seem uncomfortable when interviewed. Such confidence can only be found in two types of people: those who know what they're doing, and the stupid ones.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Of course each manager will have a preferred style, system and ethos. This could be fairly soft or extremely strict and structured.

But for me it is vital that the players have confidence and feel free to play their natural game without fear of reprisals.

I've felt this at a very low level e.g. I would play every week pretty well, but when some friends came to watch I was conscious of them watching and didn't want to co.ck anything up, so I played safer passes and didn't play as well as I usually would.

This must be magnified a thousand times at the top level, see Jenas, J for a good example of someone that always played safe until the crunch came and then whammo he lashed it into the corner. He had the ability but was scared and stifled.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Again, perhaps Eriksen was jogging because he wanted to maintain position in case we retrieved the ball from that dangerous situation and needed someone to spark a counter-attack quickly, or just to hold up possession further up the field while waiting for options to materialise. Or perhaps he was literally too tired to run and feared that if he charged back to make a challenge, he'd concede a penalty. We have no way of knowing so early into Sherwood's tenure, essentially.

I recognize your conundrum: it's too early to conclusively tell whether Tim's actually setting his team up to play this way or if we're just playing 'off the cuff' and thus leaving Tim with little recourse should we make a mistake like the one you mentioned. But I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that you're worrying a bit too much. Relax, we'll come good. And if not, it'll be a fun ride until we appoint LVG/de Boer/ A.N. Other in the summer.

I think we'll be ok. Usually, we will be set up to press high and win the ball back quickly to make the attacks come in waves, but against United I was quite impressed with how we often had an out ball if we got the ball after it came into our box. Dawson or Chiriches would have an out ball in Dembele or Eriksen to bring a dangerous counter on and that was good. If the gap was too big either side of our defence yesterday, United would have created a lot more clear cut chances IMO.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can anyone remember the name of the supposedly scientific coach who said this not so long ago?

tumblr_m74a21pzcQ1rb8vsuo1_500.jpg
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I find all the talk of systems quite interesting. I think the logic behind the idea articulated (and bolded) in your post is perfectly sound in theory, but I'm interested in exactly what is meant by a 'system' in practice?

My initial reaction is to say that surely every manager / team has a system - for example, under Sherwood our system has changed to one in which we get more players into the box and play riskier, quicker, more direct passes.

But my second reaction is to ask if the defining feature of having a system is that the manager has more direct control (at a micro level) over what players do when they're on the pitch? So rather than leaving them to do whatever comes naturally to them when they're on the pitch, they're more drilled in certain kinds of patterns of movement and passing, for example?

I think Sherwood does have a system in mind. It has elements of Emirates Marketing Project, elements of Southampton, elements of Dortmund, and I think his approach also has some elements of Pardew's Saudi Sportswashing Machine within it - today he was adaptable and I think where as Potchettino for example may still have tried to play their usual way at OT (which works for them) Tim was flexible and altered the approach as a Saudi Sportswashing Machine would, and they were rewarded for that decision too.

I also agree with people saying he's probably 'dumbing down' his comments a bit for the media and it's easier to get them onside by pretending football is a simple game. Obviously, fundementally it is, but to actually be a successful manager or player, there's a ludicrous amount that goes into it. Obviously players aren't filled with thousands of instructions every game, because that's where coaching comes into it over their careers. But systems, fitness, tactics, everything that can contribute to a win is constantly evolving, constantly rethought. LvG acknowledges he is the type of coach that takes a couple of weeks or a months before seeing his players play at the optimum level under his system ('prozesstrainer') because what he asks of them is quite demanding, not so easy to grasp, but once they do grasp it the players can play to more than the sum of their parts. That's what I think we need to compete too, but maybe Sherwood is capable of giving that to us.

If anyone's played sport at any level, they should realise how complicated football can be at the elite. I play basketball, and when I was younger the coaching where I lived was frankly rubbish. I was given a lot of individual freedom and virtually had to teach myself if I wanted to improve. Then I moved to a proper team in a different area where the coaching was detailed and comprehensive, and it totally opened my eyes to a different way of looking at the game. And I think, if I learnt so much more from that step up from what was a low level to still what isn't exactly a high level, surely at the elite level in any sport there is so much going into it. Sure enough, when I made another step up, it was another level again in terms of how 'complicated' the game was, but that's because the standard is higher and everyone is searching for the advantages to compete. Fundmentally, of course a 5 v 5 game where you are trying to chuck a ball through a hoop as many times as possible is simple, but to actually coach a winning team, it really isn't.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I refuse to post in the OMT while we are still winning so i will put it in here.


Please, please, please beat them smug little pricks. They are far to confident for my liking.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not saying AVB should have changed his system: I was okay with him trying to implement it (even if I still question his logic: why not get top four first (Levy's objective), sign a three or four year deal, and only then implement the system, once everyone understands your worth?). However, I do question his willful refusal to use a squad asset once it became clear there was no way that asset could be moved on.

Instead of playing Soldado up front, why not try to play Ade there? It required but a tweak to his system,not a wholesale change. If the system was generating inconsistencies, tweak it to ensure maximum efficacy in the short term, and then revert to your longer-term plan once the team achieves some level of confidence and cohesion.

All he had to do to attain an aerial presence in the box was play Ade there: it would have allowed us to at least present more of a threat from the many crosses Townsend, Lennon and Lamela put in over the course of AVB's 2013-2014. It would mean setting aside any personal qualms he had over Ade's percieved commitment levels and his desire to have a completely focused, single-minded squad, but Ade essentially offered a chance for him to trade some team harmony for time, and there's no reason not to think that the AVB we saw at the beginning of his tenure (cheerful, friendly, laid-back, astute) couldn't have sparked at least a bit of life into Emmanuel.

But he didn't do it, perhaps because of his growing stubbornness as the leaves turned red and fluttered away, and now we are both left to regret what his tenure ultimately became: a footnote to the rise and sale of the most expensive footballer in the world.

Sigh. Still, new manager, new era, some great results and a 2014 to look forward to again. As you say, no reason to delve back into the past.

This this and definitely this. The analysis of our previous encumbent's tenure has been done to death. This is the TS thread.

If I have one wish for 2014, please can we all now move on. To look back really does not help anyone.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

What I love about Tim is that he is playing 2 strikers the way I have wanted all season. Also while I was one of those ****ging off Ade last season for being cack I felt he needed another chance this season considering our lack of goals, he has addressed that issue too.

When we play City and Liverpool but I am more confident that we will not give up like we did previously even if we lose
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Danny Rose:

“The manager said before the game we had to respect the opposition and not to think it was going to be easy just because they were sixth in the league.

“We had to earn their respect and we will have to do the same thing at the weekend.

“We need to try and weather the storm, break on the counter attack and nick a goal.”
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For me its a return to the 90s and 00s. Plucky 'smash and grab' football then desperate backs to the wall as our soft centre implodes.

If that's 'our Tottenham back' then I do despair. It wasn't long ago we were genuinely trying to go toe-to-toe with the big boys by learning to play like contenders.

Wow. Takes some skill to get "Dumbass Post of the Year" done and dusted on the 1st January.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenhams-win-over-manchester-united-proves-tim-sherwood-is-happy-to-switch-systems--unlike-his-predecessor-andre-villasboas-9034548.html

There is more to Tottenham under Tim Sherwood than a 4-4-2. Victory at Old Trafford may have confirmed plenty about Manchester United’s on-going frailties but Spurs exploited those vulnerabilities with intelligence and resolve.

Sherwood has been painted as something of a tactical Neanderthal in certain quarters because of his inexperience; Spurs’ defeat by West Ham — essentially Sherwood’s first stage interview for the job of succeeding Andre Villas-Boas — seemed to imply a naivety often associated with a 4-4-2 system that seems antiquated in the days of more complex formations.

However, here was evidence that labelling Sherwood’s version as simplistic and regimented would be doing him a disservice, as Christian Eriksen floated in off the left flank to help outnumber United in the central midfield area that remains their weakness.

There were occasions when Eriksen left Danny Rose exposed to the opposing combination of Chris Smalling and Antonio Valencia but his ability to drift infield caused United considerable problems on the break. Eriksen wandered so far at one point that he ended up on the right flank to deliver a fine cross for Emmanuel Adebayor to head the visitors in front.

United had been the better team in the opening period by some distance but they gradually lost the midfield battle as Etienne Capoue and Mousa Dembele recovered from nervous starts to gradually assert themselves, ably supported by Adebayor’s impressive work rate which extended to dropping deep to help stifle the hosts.

Aaron Lennon worked diligently to help protect Kyle Walker from the ever-industrious Adnan Januzaj and Eriksen’s stooping header to put Spurs 2-0 up came during a period when they operated with a degree of comfort despite United’s best intentions to the contrary.

The champions rallied, with Danny Welbeck immediately halving the deficit with a well-taken finish, and they were unfortunate not to be awarded a penalty when Hugo Lloris appeared to foul substitute
Ashley Young in the box — referee Howard Webb’s non-award was declared “scandalous” by United manager David Moyes — but Spurs’ resilience deserved its reward.

Wayne Rooney’s remonstrations with Webb at the final whistle failed to mask the uncomfortable truth for United that they simply failed to muster enough momentum to sufficiently unsettle Tottenham.

Sherwood switched to something resembling a 4-2-3-1 late on to protect the lead and the notion he is able to motivate his players in a way Villas-Boas was unable to finds credence in the key role played by Adebayor and the emergence of Harry Kane and Nabil Bentaleb as substitutes.

There is a togetherness about Tottenham that bodes well — particularly given they were not at their very best here — but, of course, it remains to be seen how long that can last. Last season’s win on this ground was hailed as a vindication of Villas-Boas’s methods. Given how that turned out, one should tread with caution in declaring this a similar landmark for Sherwood but it is hard to deny Spurs look galvanised as they sit just two points behind fourth-placed Liverpool.

United’s future looks more uncertain. They undeniably retain the ability to end this campaign in the top four but their reliance on Rooney, who played the full game despite failing to recover from a groin problem, and teenage winger Januzaj is an indictment of their lack of midfield creativity.

The problem is, of course, nothing new. They have lost four home Premier League games now partly because they lack the ability to manoeuvre possession quickly enough to their wingers; United are one of the few top sides not to attack predominantly through central areas and rely on swift distribution to the flanks in order to make inroads.

Michael Carrick is yet to return to full fitness and United should improve in this respect as he rediscovers match sharpness but here that failure to move the ball well enough contributed to one of Moyes’s decisions backfiring spectacularly.

Sir Alex Ferguson often used Valencia at right-back to provide additional width but these days United do not control games sufficiently enough to allow Valencia to bomb forward from defence, which ranks as the principal benefit of using the Ecuadorian in that position.

Instead, his defensive weaknesses were exposed as Eriksen stole in with Valencia floundering to head the winning goal.

United have lost their aura. “What was vital is that the manager said before the game that we had to respect the opposition, don’t think that because they are sixth in the league it is going to be an easy game,” said Rose.

Note the implication that there may have been complacency for a visiting team at the home of the champions. Once, there was only one pre-match emotion for many opponents: fear. United can, of course, recover but it is Tottenham who have the greater impetus at present.

The traditional narrative of these two sides is that United always come good and Tottenham often falter. It is too early to predict anything different but this most unpredictable of Premier League seasons has taken another intriguing twist.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wow GB, that's very harsh after winning at Old Trafford.

Did you really think our centre looked soft yesterday? I don't think Rooney thought our centre was soft as Dembele steamrollered him. Did you notice how Sherwood didn't just want to play desperate back to the wall football and put on young Bentaleb instead of the more destroyer like Capoue as we tried to do more passing? Or did you notice how a fairly humble Sherwood immediately pointed out that we weren't passing the ball well enough in his post match interview?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Look Gutter Boy ****ged off the initial appointment and will not have a good word to say about Tim until he is let go. Once you can appreciate that fact you will all learn to ignore his anti Sherwood comments
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't like the guy but if he churns out results like that on a frequent basis he'll win me over (as a manager at least).

Gutter Boy, I share/shared your concerns about Sherwood but give credit where it's due, his tactics yesterday were no different and every bit as successful as AVB's in the win at Old Trafford last season - I bet you lavishly praised AVB for it.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was very underwhelmed by TS' appointment but he's done well so far. Interesting that we're playing 4-4-2 despite the youth team's playing 4-3-3. I would have thought that the 4-3-3 at lower levels would have been TS' decision and aimed at getting one system used throughout the club - you only have to look at **** to see the benefits of this. They can bring any kid into the first team and because they've been playing in the same system since they were 10, they know the exact role which they're being asked to do...its a huge huge benefit and we have a number players such as Holtby, Siggy, Eriksen, Lamela, etc who I would expect to be better equiped for a 4-3-3 than a 4-4-2
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just think we're a much better team than Man U now and shouldn't be playing them like subservients.

We're not a mid-table team trying to nick something off one of the untouchable big 4 anymore, but that's what it felt like.

You really do talk some **** don't you?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Lets be honest though, looking at some of the touch maps, average position stats etc from the last 2 games we have looked more like a 433 at times, just slightly more lopsided.

---------Soldado-------Ade-------
---------------------------Lennon
-------------Eriksen--------------
--------------------Dembele------
Rose---------Capoue--------------

As many have said, he is just working out his preferred formation and learning about his players. We are still in the early stages of things here and yet TS has got us moving the ball quickly and creating dangerous situations. I will agree with others that there were times when we looked in trouble, for me Evans was allowed to carry the ball forward too often, with neither of our strikers tracking him which did give UTD the edge in midfield at times. Whether or not these are orders we don't know but both our goals came from quick counters using both strikers along with Eriksen and Lennon, the second goal especially as UTD were all pushed forward and we broke 3v3 before Lennon joined to create a 4v3 (with Rooney ambling along behind).

I don't think it shows TS to be tactically naive just more of a risk taker. Leaving our strikers high up the field to conserve their energy for quick counters is risky, but it paid off twice and probably should've on more than those two occasions. Against a better team than UTD it likely won't work and you would expect TS to have a different idea up his sleeve.
 
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