Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wow. You truly have flipped haven't you. You seem to be getting twisted by your own posts!

Let's try again and keep the conext here.

In this thread YOU (i.e. Pirate55) have stated that in the middle of AVB's first season, i.e. 2012/13 (NOT a PREVIOUS season when we were managed by Harry, Ramos or Jol) AVB moved Bale from the left-sided attacking position THAT HE MAINLY PLAYED FROM HE START OF THE SEASON to the central position that he played to devestating effect in the latter part of the season purely because Bale requested to AVB that his playing position be changed as such.

I say that's tosh and that AVB took that decision himself from a managerial and tactical point of view because he felt it best for the team (as Defoe was staring to mis-fire as he usually did and Ade was unreliable and off to the ACN).

I invite you AGAIN to show me the quotes/evidence that IN 2012/13 the decision to move Bale from the left-side to a more central position was made because Bale asked AVB to do so.
I assume you cannot....i await to be proved wrong..

From the articles that were floating about at the time;

Andre Villas-Boas received a knock on the door of his office at Tottenham’s new training centre from Gareth Bale at the start of last season.

“He wasn’t happy, he was disillusioned with his role in the team,” said Tottenham’s head coach when he presented Bale with the Football Writers’ Association Player of the Year award in May.

At the meeting, Villas-Boas agreed to give Bale more freedom in the Spurs side, sparking an exceptional run of form which continued until the end of the season. And on Wednesday that story was being aired in the corridors of power at White Hart Lane, used to illustrate the special relationship between the pair.


To me that probably suggests that Bale came to AVB rather than the other way round. I don't really think AVB should be criticised for it though. He listened and considered a good observation from one of his best players, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To me that probably suggests that Bale came to AVB rather than the other way round. I don't really think AVB should be criticised for it though. He listened and considered a good observation from one of his best players, there is nothing wrong with that.

Wouldn't you also say that it makes the suggestion that he gave Ade a fair ear and simply disagreed with him quite likely?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

P55 & glorygloryeze, please can you both calm it down. This thread isn't here for you to have a battle of the egos. Thanks.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

From the articles that were floating about at the time;

Andre Villas-Boas received a knock on the door of his office at Tottenham’s new training centre from Gareth Bale at the start of last season.

“He wasn’t happy, he was disillusioned with his role in the team,” said Tottenham’s head coach when he presented Bale with the Football Writers’ Association Player of the Year award in May.

At the meeting, Villas-Boas agreed to give Bale more freedom in the Spurs side, sparking an exceptional run of form which continued until the end of the season. And on Wednesday that story was being aired in the corridors of power at White Hart Lane, used to illustrate the special relationship between the pair.


To me that probably suggests that Bale came to AVB rather than the other way round. I don't really think AVB should be criticised for it though. He listened and considered a good observation from one of his best players, there is nothing wrong with that.

Thanks Millsy.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wouldn't you also say that it makes the suggestion that he gave Ade a fair ear and simply disagreed with him quite likely?

Yep, it does. But the point I'm making is that had he disagreed with Bale and Bale had acted as per Ade, I don't think he would have been treated in the same manner as Ade was.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yep, it does. But the point I'm making is that had he disagreed with Bale and Bale had acted as per Ade, I don't think he would have been treated in the same manner as Ade was.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Agreed, that was the point. Somehow it got turned into a vehicle to take something away from AVB because it was Bale that came to him rather than AVB deciding upon it without that initial meeting - that part was a bit out of nowhere.

I honestly think if Bale went to AVB, got an answer he didn't like, and then brought it up in front of the team in a way that said to AVB 'your ideas will not help this club', then Bale would get treated the same way. And so he should. And as a fun I would completely agree with it even if we were suffering bad form. It's a good job Bale wasn't that type of guy though.

 

[Kingdawson]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, that was the point. Somehow it got turned into a vehicle to take something away from AVB because it was Bale that came to him rather than AVB deciding upon it without that initial meeting - that part was a bit out of nowhere.

I honestly think if Bale went to AVB, got an answer he didn't like, and then brought it up in front of the team in a way that said to AVB 'your ideas will not help this club', then Bale would get treated the same way. And so he should. And as a fun I would completely agree with it even if we were suffering bad form. It's a good job Bale wasn't that type of guy though.

I don't think that would be the case.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, that was the point. Somehow it got turned into a vehicle to take something away from AVB because it was Bale that came to him rather than AVB deciding upon it without that initial meeting - that part was a bit out of nowhere.

I honestly think if Bale went to AVB, got an answer he didn't like, and then brought it up in front of the team in a way that said to AVB 'your ideas will not help this club', then Bale would get treated the same way. And so he should. And as a fun I would completely agree with it even if we were suffering bad form. It's a good job Bale wasn't that type of guy though.

Well I have to say I completely disagree. NO ONE is bigger than the team or club not Ade not AVB. If our form is suffering because of a lack of goals and arguably the best striker at the club has been consigned to the reserves to prove a point then that is a scandal and if true no wonder he was sacked. How far are you willing to accept this as a fan? Is it ok ieven if we are relegated? Fergie only got away with it because he showed the board that he could continue producing winning teams even without the player in question. These are the only circumstances when it becomes acceptable to treat a player like this over such a prolonged period. There are lots of ways to exert your authority without discarding the player. AVB was paid a lot of money to find a solution not to create more problems. Of course we are only talking hypothetically because we don't know what actually happened!

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, that was the point. Somehow it got turned into a vehicle to take something away from AVB because it was Bale that came to him rather than AVB deciding upon it without that initial meeting - that part was a bit out of nowhere.

I honestly think if Bale went to AVB, got an answer he didn't like, and then brought it up in front of the team in a way that said to AVB 'your ideas will not help this club', then Bale would get treated the same way. And so he should. And as a fun I would completely agree with it even if we were suffering bad form. It's a good job Bale wasn't that type of guy though.

I genuinely find that very very hard to believe. Also, had he made that decision, he'd have been gone long before the 18 months he did get, because we'd have probably finished somewhere between 10th and 7th. It all boils down to results, and whatever way you look at it not playing Ade did not give AVB the best chance of getting results.

I totally appreciate and understand the notion of team work and the greater cause and long term vision, but when your boss doesn't really care for that and you want to keep your job should you really let your pig-headedness get in the way?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

[/B]

Well I have to say I completely disagree. NO ONE is bigger than the team or club not Ade not AVB. If our form is suffering because of a lack of goals and arguably the best striker at the club has been consigned to the reserves to prove a point then that is a scandal and if true no wonder he was sacked. How far are you willing to accept this as a fan? Is it ok ieven if we are relegated? Fergie only got away with it because he showed the board that he could continue producing winning teams even without the player in question. These are the only circumstances when it becomes acceptable to treat a player like this over such a prolonged period. There are lots of ways to exert your authority without discarding the player. AVB was paid a lot of money to find a solution not to create more problems. Of course we are only talking hypothetically because we don't know what actually happened!

Why is it only the manager 'treating the player' like this and not the player 'treating the team' like this?

If any player goes into business for themselves, they deserve everything they get IMO. Ade had raised his opinion with AVB in private, and was given a response. He then knew exactly what he was doing when raising it in public, and has admitted he knew it was the wrong thing to do. I'm also pretty sure he didn't expect change at this point and is doing it simply to undermine the manager. Ultimately it worked out for him. As you say though, no-one is bigger than the club and that is why I would have Ade out of the team.

Same with Bale. Same with Modric. Same if any player did what Ade did. Even if we suffer some results early on it's more beneficial for us to establish some authority for the long term which allows us to work better than the sum of our parts. Fergie would deliver titles (after a tough initial few years mind) and got away with it, and AVB still had us well in the hunt for the CL places and 8 points off the top of the league. All without super, answer-to-all-our-prayers, guru-of-how-it-works-at-top-clubs Adebayor.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I genuinely find that very very hard to believe. Also, had he made that decision, he'd have been gone long before the 18 months he did get, because we'd have probably finished somewhere between 10th and 7th. It all boils down to results, and whatever way you look at it not playing Ade did not give AVB the best chance of getting results.

I totally appreciate and understand the notion of team work and the greater cause and long term vision, but when your boss doesn't really care for that and you want to keep your job should you really let your pig-headedness get in the way?

Honestly, I am much happier knowing we are building something for the long term than I am thinking 'yay! We just beat Southampton!' or whatever. I would happily take the losses.

If the boss doesn't really care for it I think he needs to reevaluate what works in the sport. Has any team punched above their weight instantly? If not maybe he needs to rethink what he cares for. And what about Ade's boss? He didn't really care for Ade's behaviour but it didn't stop him knowingly doing something wrong in a public domain did it?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Honestly, I am much happier knowing we are building something for the long term than I am thinking 'yay! We just beat Southampton!' or whatever. I would happily take the losses.

If the boss doesn't really care for it I think he needs to reevaluate what works in the sport. Has any team punched above their weight instantly? If not maybe he needs to rethink what he cares for. And what about Ade's boss? He didn't really care for Ade's behaviour but it didn't stop him knowingly doing something wrong in a public domain did it?

If a manager chooses not to play his best player, and due to that loses games he should be winning and eventually gets the sack how can we ever build anything. Had AVB patches things up, played Ade and Ade shown the same form as for TS he could possibly still be in the job right now. Get to the end of the season, get rid of him and continue to build. Instead we are back in transition.

Totally agree with this the 1st bold.

On the 2nd one, it all boils down to (as we've been going round and round and round over) whether or not what he done was wrong. Without any context to any of the quotes we can be sure or not sure of that.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Why is it only the manager 'treating the player' like this and not the player 'treating the team' like this?

If any player goes into business for themselves, they deserve everything they get IMO. Ade had raised his opinion with AVB in private, and was given a response. He then knew exactly what he was doing when raising it in public, and has admitted he knew it was the wrong thing to do. I'm also pretty sure he didn't expect change at this point and is doing it simply to undermine the manager. Ultimately it worked out for him. As you say though, no-one is bigger than the club and that is why I would have Ade out of the team.

Same with Bale. Same with Modric. Same if any player did what Ade did. Even if we suffer some results early on it's more beneficial for us to establish some authority for the long term which allows us to work better than the sum of our parts. Fergie would deliver titles (after a tough initial few years mind) and got away with it, and AVB still had us well in the hunt for the CL places and 8 points off the top of the league. All without super, answer-to-all-our-prayers, guru-of-how-it-works-at-top-clubs Adebayor.

Look this is the last time I will post on this because we really are going around in circles. As I have said before the people who felt AVB was not up to the job will not take this decision lightly. Clearly they did not see things going as swimmingly as you say with AVB otherwise there is no way they would have got rid and paid the compensation. Levy hates paying for more than he has to. Something was very wrong so AVB had to go. I am not saying btw it is acceptable for a player to challenge the Authority of the manager certainly not in public ( in private a discussion is fine IMO if the player feels the team are not doing well). The principle of Punishing Ade is fine. It's refusing to play that player for a prolonged period and thereby wasting valuable club resources which I had a problem with and I suspect Levy was none to chuffed either.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If a manager chooses not to play his best player, and due to that loses games he should be winning and eventually gets the sack how can we ever build anything. Had AVB patches things up, played Ade and Ade shown the same form as for TS he could possibly still be in the job right now. Get to the end of the season, get rid of him and continue to build. Instead we are back in transition.

Totally agree with this the 1st bold.

On the 2nd one, it all boils down to (as we've been going round and round and round over) whether or not what he done was wrong. Without any context to any of the quotes we can be sure or not sure of that.

I agree with you, at least to a large degree.

I know Ferguson gets mentioned a lot in discussions like these as someone who was quick to get rid of players he didn't agree with. But isn't it also true that Ferguson had a lot of internal conflicts with players that got resolved and both the player and the manager moved on. When he eventually got rid of Keane it was partly because of internal conflicts and partly because he was no longer good enough. I don't think it was the first proper disagreement between the two as both seem like people who could find a disagreement with a fresh cut bouquet of daisies.

From what I've read the problem with AVB was at least in part that he was in conflict with so many people at the same time and that those conflicts didn't seem to go away. Even Baldini and AVB weren't enjoying their working relationship and AVB had wanted to work with Baldini. Freund looked like he was being frozen out, players, coaches, there were just a few too many conflicts in the end from what I can understand (obviously I wasn't there).

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Look this is the last time I will post on this because we really are going around in circles. As I have said before the people who felt AVB was not up to the job will not take this decision lightly. Clearly they did not see things going as swimmingly as you say with AVB otherwise there is no way they would have got rid and paid the compensation. Levy hates paying for more than he has to. Something was very wrong so AVB had to go. I am not saying btw it is acceptable for a player to challenge the Authority of the manager certainly not in public ( in private a discussion is fine IMO if the player feels the team are not doing well). The principle of Punishing Ade is fine. It's refusing to play that player for a prolonged period and thereby wasting valuable club resources which I had a problem with and I suspect Levy was none to chuffed either.

I agree with this too.

For us with Ade and Ekotto and at Chelsea with Anelka, Alex (wasn't it?) and to some extent Terry and Lampart AVB seemed to wish to remove completely or not play those players he didn't like or didn't get on with..

I think he took it too far personally, a good manager should have the authority to punish a player without having to completely drop him from the team indefinitely.

At the risk of turning the discussion another epoch back to the Redknapp discussions didn't Keane take almost the entire squad to Dublin for a Christmas binge in direct contradiction to what Redknapp had instructed? I'm sure Redknapp wasn't happy, but he didn't just leave Keane out of the team and squad forever. Was that disrespect greater than what Ade did to AVB?

I think there has to be some leniency, some understanding that players make off the pitch mistakes from time to time.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with this too.

For us with Ade and Ekotto and at Chelsea with Anelka, Alex (wasn't it?) and to some extent Terry and Lampart AVB seemed to wish to remove completely or not play those players he didn't like or didn't get on with..

I think he took it too far personally, a good manager should have the authority to punish a player without having to completely drop him from the team indefinitely.

At the risk of turning the discussion another epoch back to the Redknapp discussions didn't Keane take almost the entire squad to Dublin for a Christmas binge in direct contradiction to what Redknapp had instructed? I'm sure Redknapp wasn't happy, but he didn't just leave Keane out of the team and squad forever. Was that disrespect greater than what Ade did to AVB?

I think there has to be some leniency, some understanding that players make off the pitch mistakes from time to time.

We don't know the sheer amount of disagreements that AVB will have had with our players that got resolved amicably, probably because they never turned into massive divides and there isn't a story there. We only hear of the ones that turn into full blown 'spats' because they are the story. And then it becomes 'AVB couldn't deal with that, or that, or that' and they are the only ones we hear about. What about Bale saying that the players asked AVB to tone down the intensity in training because they were tired, and being happy with AVB listening? Can I use that to prove beyond any doubt he is a fantastic man manager?

Redknapp's philosophy is also massively different to AVB and his team first ethos, where respect and the like are valued more highly than individual expression. There's the story about Paul Merson and Harry that is pretty funny too, and Harry ignores it. But trying to build the kind of culture AVB wanted, he probably wouldn't stand for what Keane did. And I don't think Fergie would either. I think Man United were punching above their weight massively since Ronaldo left, in no small part down to the team ethos that allowed them to over-compensate.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We don't know the sheer amount of disagreements that AVB will have had with our players that got resolved amicably, probably because they never turned into massive divides and there isn't a story there. We only hear of the ones that turn into full blown 'spats' because they are the story. And then it becomes 'AVB couldn't deal with that, or that, or that' and they are the only ones we hear about. What about Bale saying that the players asked AVB to tone down the intensity in training because they were tired, and being happy with AVB listening? Can I use that to prove beyond any doubt he is a fantastic man manager?

Redknapp's philosophy is also massively different to AVB and his team first ethos, where respect and the like are valued more highly than individual expression. There's the story about Paul Merson and Harry that is pretty funny too, and Harry ignores it. But trying to build the kind of culture AVB wanted, he probably wouldn't stand for what Keane did. And I don't think Fergie would either. I think Man United were punching above their weight massively since Ronaldo left, in no small part down to the team ethos that allowed them to over-compensate.

Not sure which part of my post made you think that I thought I was proving something beyond doubt? Obviously our superstar and reported absolute beast of a trainer going to him and saying he would like less intensity in training and AVB listening doesn't prove anything.

Of course there will be conflicts we never hear or, but what's been reported for us was Ade and BAE, add Anelka, Alex, Lampard and Terry at Chelsea, then add that he apparently was in a conflict with the DoF he wanted in Baldini, and it looked like Freund was getting frozen out at times. Then there's Levy, although I'm sure someone will say that was Levy's fault.

That's a lot to me in what totaled a bit over two season in the PL for AVB. I don't think his approach found a good balance. And to some extent I also think it comes down to the authority the manager has, Ferguson could get away with a lot that less successful managers couldn't I think.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wouldn't you also say that it makes the suggestion that he gave Ade a fair ear and simply disagreed with him quite likely?

I had always heard that AVB didn't want Ade when he came in that summer (which is why the deal took so long -it had been agreed at the end of that season) and the only reason the deal went through was because other options AVB wanted didn't pan out for whatever reasons. The main thought AVB had at that time was that he did not want players who he felt were 'potential' dressing room rousers. He thought of Ade like that, based on reports he'd received and the player's reputation. So I'd honestly say that this was a relationship which was fractious from the start. I felt AVB did magnificently to get Ade working in HIS system last season, and I'd further guess that the player saw what was going on (Bale's form) and got on with it. This season? Well, we've been through the potential issues and situations…there's no doubt the two would never see completely eye-to-eye but there's little doubt that the trip for the funeral came at a time of great intensity at the club (Bale situation) and given that it involved a player AVB didn't ever really want, well, not a good combination…Sherwood did what needed to be done in bringing him back, and I applaud him personally for that, but perversely, you could argue that AVB's treatment of Ade insured that once recalled, he was going to go off like a scoring warrior. Sadly, he returned to the player you know and love at WBA :-(…couldn't help but consider your chuckling ;-)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not sure which part of my post made you think that I thought I was proving something beyond doubt? Obviously our superstar and reported absolute beast of a trainer going to him and saying he would like less intensity in training and AVB listening doesn't prove anything.

Of course there will be conflicts we never hear or, but what's been reported for us was Ade and BAE, add Anelka, Alex, Lampard and Terry at Chelsea, then add that he apparently was in a conflict with the DoF he wanted in Baldini, and it looked like Freund was getting frozen out at times. Then there's Levy, although I'm sure someone will say that was Levy's fault.

That's a lot to me in what totaled a bit over two season in the PL for AVB. I don't think his approach found a good balance. And to some extent I also think it comes down to the authority the manager has, Ferguson could get away with a lot that less successful managers couldn't I think.

He falls out with people because he is bringing in new ideas that threaten the established way of thinking. It's absolutely right to get those guys who will give dissent to those ideas out of the club, when the job he has brought in to do is to initiate that change towards the new way. If he wasn't initiating that change and was doing it slower by pandering to the old guard he wouldn't be doing his job properly. Didn't Thatcher say something about there being no point in trying to please everyone because you can never get anything done?

The problem is the owners of the PL love the ideas AVB had, it's just they want him way sooner and it looks like they can be implemented. And then they give up.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with you, at least to a large degree.

I know Ferguson gets mentioned a lot in discussions like these as someone who was quick to get rid of players he didn't agree with. But isn't it also true that Ferguson had a lot of internal conflicts with players that got resolved and both the player and the manager moved on. When he eventually got rid of Keane it was partly because of internal conflicts and partly because he was no longer good enough. I don't think it was the first proper disagreement between the two as both seem like people who could find a disagreement with a fresh cut bouquet of daisies.

From what I've read the problem with AVB was at least in part that he was in conflict with so many people at the same time and that those conflicts didn't seem to go away. Even Baldini and AVB weren't enjoying their working relationship and AVB had wanted to work with Baldini. Freund looked like he was being frozen out, players, coaches, there were just a few too many conflicts in the end from what I can understand (obviously I wasn't there).

He stuck with Ince after he pulled a gun on him

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/221817/Paul-Ince-pulled-gun-on-Alex-Ferguson