Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've been thinking about this chair incident, because we heard about that before we heard that Ade had questionned AVB in front of the entire group. So from an authority perspective, it's pretty good to humiliate the dissenting player and show them who is boss. Ade will come away from it feeling embarassed, feeling that AVB is a bit of a dingdong, and so will some other players. But at the end of the day that's ok. Not everyone has to like their boss. But the squad should have come away from it knowing that the boss isn't questioned and that the team is most important above the individual. The problem was we had no consistency because while AVB is doing this, Levy is pulling in another direction which completely erodes the point of what AVB is doing there.

Don't know which management school you attended, but IMO it certainly IS NOT okay to humiliate a person ( especially in front of their peers ) if you want to continue to have an on-going relationship with them. Shocking man management in my view.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

is the fact that his job title was manager not enough?

you do what your boss tells you, even if it's wrong, especially if it's wrong, without chain of command the whole thing falls apart

Agreed. That is why I said he should have made his position crystal clear - to the board, as well as the player.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed. That is why I said he should have made his position crystal clear - to the board, as well as the player.

i appreciate we are just speculating here, but this is how i understand it,

AVB laid out the tactics

Ade disagreed and told him in private

AVB continued to use the same tactics

Personally, i'd say thats about as crystal clear as you can get, a manager should absolutely listen to their charges, but if they think the opinions are wrong then they should absolutely ignore them

 

[Lily White]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I've been thinking about this chair incident, because we heard about that before we heard that Ade had questionned AVB in front of the entire group. So from an authority perspective, it's pretty good to humiliate the dissenting player and show them who is boss. Ade will come away from it feeling embarassed, feeling that AVB is a bit of a dingdong, and so will some other players. But at the end of the day that's ok. Not everyone has to like their boss. But the squad should have come away from it knowing that the boss isn't questioned and that the team is most important above the individual. The problem was we had no consistency because while AVB is doing this, Levy is pulling in another direction which completely erodes the point of what AVB is doing there.

If you want a happy team spirit and respect as a boss, humiliation is the last thing to do. Good managers in whatever business should work with employees to sort out problems by debating/discussing. Humiliating somebody shows that you haven't the skills to deal with an issue and prefer the approach of a weak bully.

 

[camspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

is the fact that his job title was manager not enough?

you do what your boss tells you, even if it's wrong, especially if it's wrong, without chain of command the whole thing falls apart

Total and utter bull.

So if a AVB had said, and yes I'm now going to take this to an extreme, to all his players sit down and do nothing all match you'd expect them to comply simply because "he's the manager"? Players, especially senior players with international experience, should be allowed to voice an opinion otherwise a manager will think "yes I'm doing everything right" even when they aren't.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i wonder how many people using Ade as a stick to beat AVB with were actually of a similar opinion at the time?

seem to recall most people wanting the guy got rid of asap

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Honestly I think if Bale said to AVB 'I want you to play me up front' and AVB said no, and then Bale did it in front of the entire team knowing the answer he was going to get, I would completely agree with AVB or any manager dropping Bale in that scenario. I think it's an awful attitude to foster in the club if players are encouraged to challenge the manager at every turn because they don't like his ideas, particularly when those ideas were signed up with the intention of giving us the structure to make us greater than the sum of our parts. If we want a culture of individuals expressing themsevles it's a little different, but I still don't think any manager should be taking kindly to having authority challenges in front of the group when they have already given an answer in private.

In the immediate instance you may have, but as we lost and drew games we should be winning due to Bale no longer being there to score last minute screamers and keep us high up the league table, you and pretty much everyone else on here would eventually start to scream for him to be re-instated. This didn't happen with Ade because obviously he's not Gareth Bale and no one expected him to perform this way. However the fact remains that once he was re-instated, he's scored goals for fun.

And the difference with Bale is that he went to AVB and said 'Help me improve my game', in a collegiate manner, they worked together for the benefit of the club. I don't think Bale was demanding anything. He was seeking help with his game. Ade has admitted to making a broad statement in front of the group saying 'you're ideas will not help the club' as if he is qualified to know that because he has played at Real Madrid. It's simply not his place and he got what he deserved IMO.

I'm not sure he did say that. According to AVB he said 'He wasn't happy, he was disillusioned with his role in the team'. That doesn't sound like 'help me improve my game' to me. Again, you are assuming that you know what 'ideas' Ade was talking about. We don't know what they were, but everyone is assuming they are something along the lines of 'I'm Ade, I'm amazing, make me the main man'. No one has any idea.

AVB's job was to build Spurs into a club that could punch even further above it's weight. The way to doing that was decided that a team structure would be implemented that would allow us to function as more than the sum of our parts. If it meant we took a short term hit in a lack of goals because a dissenting striker isn't buying into that vision then I think it's absolutely the right thing to do.

Unfortunately AVB's job should have been to build Spurs into a club that could punch even further above his weight. In reality (wrongly on Levy's part IMO), his job was to get us into the top 4 this season. If he understood this to be his job, he stood a much better chance of succeeding with Ade in the team. I would have liked to have seen him put a little more effort into making it work. However, that being said, I do respect him for standing his ground if he truly felt what Ade done warranted the reaction he gave him. I'm just not sure it did.

Equally, maybe he didn't understand that this was his job as Levy may not have made it clear/shifted the goal posts half way through. If this was the case, then Levy is to blame.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i appreciate we are just speculating here, but this is how i understand it,

AVB laid out the tactics

Ade disagreed and told him in private

AVB continued to use the same tactics

Personally, i'd say thats about as crystal clear as you can get, a manager should absolutely listen to their charges, but if they think the opinions are wrong then they should absolutely ignore them

I agree with what you have said there. But that is not what happened. AVB needs to make it crystal clear to Ade and others that it is "his way or the highway". Ade continued not to like something and picked AVB up on it in front of the players. Totally unacceptable. At that point, it becomes a matter of principle and AVB should have insisted Ade be sold. That was his fundamental error IMO.

What AVB did instead was the worst of all worlds.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i wonder how many people using Ade as a stick to beat AVB with were actually of a similar opinion at the time?

seem to recall most people wanting the guy got rid of asap

Exactly

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with what you have said there. But that is not what happened. AVB needs to make it crystal clear to Ade and others that it is "his way or the highway". Ade continued not to like something and picked AVB up on it in front of the players. Totally unacceptable. At that point, it becomes a matter of principle and AVB should have insisted Ade be sold. That was his fundamental error IMO.

What AVB did instead was the worst of all worlds.

And if the board couldn't /shouldn't have sold him, what next? He resigns on the spot because of ONE player? Should Wenger, Mancini or Mourinho have done that? Or needed to?

As usual you are taking whatever stick you can find to beat AVB with.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with what you have said there. But that is not what happened. AVB needs to make it crystal clear to Ade and others that it is "his way or the highway". Ade continued not to like something and picked AVB up on it in front of the players. Totally unacceptable. At that point, it becomes a matter of principle and AVB should have insisted Ade be sold. That was his fundamental error IMO.

What AVB did instead was the worst of all worlds.

Most of the transfer rumours suggested that AVB did try and sell Ade.

City's deal where they turn his ridiculous wage into an astronomical one is believed to be non-transferable, meaning that Ade refused to move anywhere unless that club matched the full amount. That's esentially the same as refusing to move.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you want a happy team spirit and respect as a boss, humiliation is the last thing to do. Good managers in whatever business should work with employees to sort out problems by debating/discussing. Humiliating somebody shows that you haven't the skills to deal with an issue and prefer the approach of a weak bully.

Some people need some humility. Some need taking down a few dozen pegs before they can be considered decent. IMO Ade is certainly one of them.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Exactly

I certainly wanted him sold in the summer. Check my posts. The ACN shenanigans and his form last year were enough for me. AVB showed all too clearly he couldn't get a performance out of him. If AVB was to be here, there was no point in having Ade, the two obviously weren't compatible.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And if the board couldn't /shouldn't have sold him, what next? He resigns on the spot because of ONE player? Should Wenger, Mancini or Mourinho have done that? Or needed to?

As usual you are taking whatever stick you can find to beat AVB with.

Yes he should. No manager worth his salt would put up with that. Decent managers get rid of dissenting players. He either insists the board sell him or tell the board he would play no further role in any if his teams. That is what a top manager would do. There are plenty of examples.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Most of the transfer rumours suggested that AVB did try and sell Ade.

City's deal where they turn his ridiculous wage into an astronomical one is believed to be non-transferable, meaning that Ade refused to move anywhere unless that club matched the full amount. That's esentially the same as refusing to move.

Then AVB tells him in no uncertain terms that he won't be playing in any if his teams.

The decision is then Ades to stay and not play or take a hit and move on. The board can always subsidies his wages if they wanted to back AVB on this matter of principle.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Any actual evidence of this? Bale could equally well have said Harry played me in a few games there and I really like it. I don't like where you have been playing me as I don't get involved enough stuck out on the left? In this scenario, it was Bale himself who identified his best position as the coach had failed to spot it.

Everything is speculation.

??? Bale has credited AVB with helping improve his game. And then it happened. There was no public challenge to the manager's authority and the whole relationship worked extremely well for both parties. Who did Bale jump into the arms of when he scored the winner at West Ham?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I replied to your "my boy Tim" taunts last week here: http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showth...ood-Head-Coach?p=536767&viewfull=1#post536767

I don't give a toss about Sherwood except insofar as him being good or bad for Spurs. I'll debate the game and tactics but not this bollox about "my boy Tim".

You replied to whatever I wrote to exemplify how the Tim-can-do-no-wrong-phalanx will find any excuse to cover his ills. What I wrote then wasn't aimed at you but you reacted like it was: kind of like one of those same Tim-can-do-no-wrong-phalanx members I was aiming at.
I questioned you why and instead you said, 'sorry it wasn't aimed at me' (even though you replied SPECIFICALLY to my post).

You then start a post saying "Spurs fans still getting moist at the memory of a coach who started 2 DM's at home to Norwich with a single isolated poacher up front" in your post where you defend TS and claim he has great tactical acumen as he rescued a last minute draw against RELEFATION FODDER - who we were 3-0 down to at one stage.
So, you basically used a taunt to on one hand attack AVB and/or those who say he wasn't all bad and then go on a long diatribe to defend TS, even saying you'd rather he stayed apart from if we get LVG. Even with the nonsense that only a novice WAY out of his depth can bring go a club like ours.

If you can't then take being labelled as one of "Tim's boys", I wouldn't start a pro-Tim diatribe with a taunt on AVB (or at least those who say he shouldn't have been replaced if it was for TS).
You want to talk tactics? Sure.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Don't know which management school you attended, but IMO it certainly IS NOT okay to humiliate a person ( especially in front of their peers ) if you want to continue to have an on-going relationship with them. Shocking man management in my view.

But it's fine for Ade to say in front of the entire squad that AVB's methods would not help the club? He's making it public, and is getting an eye for an eye.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yes he should. No manager worth his salt would put up with that. Decent managers get rid of dissenting players. He either insists the board sell him or tell the board he would play no further role in any if his teams. That is what a top manager would do. There are plenty of examples.

Er...isn't that what he actually did?? You seem to be flip-flopping - I thought you blamed AVB for the fact that he didn't play him??

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Some people need some humility. Some need taking down a few dozen pegs before they can be considered decent. IMO Ade is certainly one of them.

And to get the best out of some payers they need an arm round them , not humiliated or " taken down a few dozen pegs". Shows a total lack of man management skills IMO