Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Therein lies the rub; they are not completely woeful; in fact Verts and Kaboul are considered out best CBpairing and I'm sure you've looked forward to seeing it in the past. The fact is our defence is being made to look far worse than it is because of TS and his inept tactics/strategy (or lack of)

In fairness I have looked forward to that patnership...I wont deny that...I have never wanted to see Dawson this season.

Kaboul I was waiting to see what he looked like after lengthy spells out...signs are not good....Verts looks like he isnt bothered anymore.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Depends on what you consider the best way to stop them from scoring. Offence as defence is a legitimate plan in that regard.

I've lost count of the number of times on here when people have decried the fact we've sat back and let teams come at us. And I think that would have been a poor plan against this Liverpool team. Their weakness is at the back, so let's try to play the game up there rather than in front of our own D, which is where they are lethal. There is merit to that logic and it's what Sherwood went with.

I'd have seen no harm putting Sandro in there in place of Siggy, because it's not as though Sandro has zero forward-looking ability, but this wouldn't actually have helped with any of their goals today.

whatever Strategy we had its clear the players didnt buy into it which means the game was effectively lost in the tunnel.

do you remember the kick off...how may seconds when Rose just gave them the ball...after that Bang 1-0 down. I think we should have set up defensively and worked our way from their...though I admit Captain Hindsight is a wonderful companion.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

In fairness I have looked forward to that patnership...I wont deny that...I have never wanted to see Dawson this season.

Kaboul I was waiting to see what he looked like after lengthy spells out...signs are not good....Verts looks like he isnt bothered anymore.

The protection these players get is woeful now: even when Sandro plays, the gap between him and the CBs is huge now. There is little positional discipline and Sandro and other go haring around and leave our CB s exposed. It is also noticeable that none of our back 4 seems to have enough easy 'out balls'. When they have the ball and want to pass it out of defence there is hardly anyone to pass to.
This problem has gotten worse under TS and is a big part of our defensive frailties

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think Tim's had ample opportunity to prove his credentials. If you felt he hadn't enough time you'd still be beating the 'give him more time' drum instead of the "I'm not sure" one.

Ok then, I'll ask you simply: how much longer do you think Tim should be given before you or anyone can judge whether he's good enough for the role?

When I asked the same question to Scara earlier on in this thread, if I recollect the answer was that a new coach should realistically be given a full pre- season, a reasonable budget to bring in his own players and set his own tactics, team and shape. On that basis, it won't be until the middle of next season that it would be fair to judge ANY new managers credentials for the job.

Personally, I would certainly give him to the end of this season to see if we can get some idea of his team and strategy. If no stellar alternative option is available in the early summer, I would persevere until the middle of next season allowing him to shape the sort of squad he wants. Then and only then can a fair assessment be made of whether he is up to the job IMO.

AvB got 18 months, two pre-seasons and about 11 new players.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

When I asked the same question to Scara earlier on in this thread, if I recollect the answer was that a new coach should realistically be given a full pre- season, a reasonable budget to bring in his own players and set his own tactics, team and shape. On that basis, it won't be until the middle of next season that it would be fair to judge ANY new managers credentials for the job.

Personally, I would certainly give him to the end of this season to see if we can get some idea of his team and strategy. If no stellar alternative option is available in the early summer, I would persevere until the middle of next season allowing him to shape the sort of squad he wants. Then and only then can a fair assessment be made of whether he is up to the job IMO.

AvB got 18 months, two pre-seasons and about 11 new players.

Faire enough.

Can I ask you, in terms of bringing in his own type of players, who do you envision these to be (give examples).

I don't mean who would YOU like him to bring in, I mean who do you imagine would be the type of players he would sign (giving examples)?

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It is also noticeable that none of our back 4 seems to have enough easy 'out balls'. When they have the ball and want to pass it out of defence there is hardly anyone to pass to

this is my biggest gripe at the moment...and why every game seems so difficult for us....

great isnt it under AVB we lacked invention in the final third but seemed to be ok with this....sigh theres no point trying to push the milk back up the cows udder!

I do hate the fact that we make a game of football look so damn complicated when others make it look so beautifully simple....if a new manager can come in and make us look cohesive for long spells in a game then I would be his 24hr bit*h all week long.

Have to agree there are no signs as of yet that we are looking any more cohesive as a passing side...its clear as day

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The protection these players get is woeful now: even when Sandro plays, the gap between him and the CBs is huge now. There is little positional discipline and Sandro and other go haring around and leave our CB s exposed. It is also noticeable that none of our back 4 seems to have enough easy 'out balls'. When they have the ball and want to pass it out of defence there is hardly anyone to pass to.
This problem has gotten worse under TS and is a big part of our defensive frailties

Just now you were blaming TS for not playing Sandro. Now you are saying Sandro is too ill- disciplined to play a defensive CM role? Yet he is a specialist in that position and has played for Brazil there. He knows what that role requires. Are you now saying that TS has instructed him "to go haring around and leave our CMs exposed" ?

A somewhat strange position to take.

I think Sandro has been less than disciplined all season. Possibly, not helped by injury and continuously changing partners. If he is so ill- disciplined in your view, you can hardly blame TS for dropping him.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Faire enough.

Can I ask you, in terms of bringing in his own type of players, who do you envision these to be (give examples).

I don't mean who would YOU like him to bring in, I mean who do you imagine would be the type of players he would sign (giving examples)?

I don't have an insight into his mind to answer that question. Personally, I would like to bring in a tall strong centre forward (Benteke/Lukaku) a creative goal scoring midfielder( Lalana) and an experienced left back ( the guy from Chile). We also now patently need a strong, fast commanding centre half.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Just now you were blaming TS for not playing Sandro. Now you are saying Sandro is too ill- disciplined to play a defensive CM role? Yet he is a specialist in that position and has played for Brazil there. He knows what that role requires. Are you now saying that TS has instructed him "to go haring around and leave our CMs exposed" ?

A somewhat strange position to take.

I think Sandro has been less than disciplined all season. Possibly, not helped by injury and continuously changing partners. If he is so ill- disciplined in your view, you can hardly blame TS for dropping him.

Sandro has gone backwards under TS. He became worse when TS had his Chelski rant and players started haring all over the place to show they had 'guts' and 'desire' instead of playing to a clear gameplan and/or a plan B (which TS didn't have much of, hence the quickness of his rant post-Chelski).

Sandro is the most prone of all our playing to get in all that haring around the place showing you have 'heart', 'guts' and 'passion'. I indeed blame TS for that. As poor as some of his earlier showings were, he has been far worse under TS overall

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

whatever Strategy we had its clear the players didnt buy into it which means the game was effectively lost in the tunnel.

do you remember the kick off...how may seconds when Rose just gave them the ball...after that Bang 1-0 down. I think we should have set up defensively and worked our way from their...though I admit Captain Hindsight is a wonderful companion.

I agree. The players attitude in the tunnel was rank poor - especially Vertonghen.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sandro has gone backwards under TS.He became worse when TS had his Chelski rant and players started haring all over the place to show they had 'guts' and 'desire' instead of playing to a clear gameplan and/or a plan B (which TS didn't have much of, hence the quickness of his rant post-Chelski).

Sandro is the most prone of all our playing to get in all that haring around the place showing you have 'heart', 'guts' and 'passion'. I indeed blame TS for that. As poor as some of his earlier showings were, he has been far worse under TS overall

Can you please list those games after Chelsea where Sandro went haring all over the place and didn't keep to his DM duties?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't have an insight into his mind to answer that question. Personally, I would like to bring in a tall strong centre forward (Benteke/Lukaku) a creative goal scoring midfielder( Lalana) and an experienced left back ( the guy from Chile). We also now patently need a strong, fast commanding centre half.

I suspect that Sherwood's current showing will mean he will struggle to attract those types of players. He hasn't shown a clear method or strategy and his man-management? Well....

This will probably be the reason why he's given his P45 imo; the likely inability to attract such players why would they join to play for Sherwood)??

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Can you please list those games after Chelsea where Sandro went haring all over the place and didn't keep to his DM duties?

Benfica Home, Arsenal home (though to a lesser extent, but did you see the chances they created first half? Often due to ill-positional discipline from Sandro in the CM/DM area)

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Benfica Home, Arsenal home (though to a lesser extent, but did you see the chances they created first half? Often due to ill-positional discipline from Sandro in the CM/DM area)

er What?

Benfica at home. Two goals came from set pieces. Arsenal had two early chances, and scored a worldie, apart from that we shackled them and dominated the game. If that is the best you can come up with, then hardly down to Sandros "haring around all over the place" being a " problem under TS

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Depends on what you consider the best way to stop them from scoring. Offence as defence is a legitimate plan in that regard.

I've lost count of the number of times on here when people have decried the fact we've sat back and let teams come at us. And I think that would have been a poor plan against this Liverpool team. Their weakness is at the back, so let's try to play the game up there rather than in front of our own D, which is where they are lethal. There is merit to that logic and it's what Sherwood went with.

I'd have seen no harm putting Sandro in there in place of Siggy, because it's not as though Sandro has zero forward-looking ability, but this wouldn't actually have helped with any of their goals today.

Outscoring your opponents (accepting you are going to concede) is very rarely a sound strategy.

But let's accept that you believe TS was thinking that, was anyone (has anyone watched Pool play recently) surprised they came at us immediately?

Regardless of if you were planning on being offensive/defensive, we should have expected that from them and should have been drilled/instructed on some kind of plan to deny them, close the space, slow the tempo for at least the first 15-20 minutes, instead all our players looked on the back foot, looked genuinely caught out.

I guess you will say that's players, I say its coaching

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

er What?

Benfica at home. Two goals came from set pieces. Arsenal had two early chances, and scored a worldie, apart from that we shackled them and dominated the game. If that is the best you can come up with, then hardly down to Sandros "haring around all over the place" being a " problem under TS

You seem to be focussing purely on the actual goals conceded and refuse to look at the overall way he played. In those games he was as positionally ill-disciplined as he could ever be. Often left gaping gaps between him and the CBs whist he hared after the ball all over the place. Oxlade-Chamberlain had at least two chances when Sandro was far upfield nowhere to be seen, one of which he gave the ball away and didn't track back at all.
He was definitely haring around more in those games to overall detrimental effect. "Gut's", "Passion", "let's av it" and all that

 

[spasm]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood is inexperienced and ill equipped to deal with managing Spurs at this stage of his career. What does it say when he is unable to exercise a modicum of restraint in the dug out and is forced to sit in the stands?

We are a top 6 club in a top tier League in Europe and frankly it is ludicrous to expect someone with absolutely no experience in management to successfully navigate such a steep learning curve under tremendous pressure in a such a short space of time.

Partly his fault for pushing for the job, but mostly Levy's fault for appointing him in the first place.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Outscoring your opponents (accepting you are going to concede) is very rarely a sound strategy.

But let's accept that you believe TS was thinking that, was anyone (has anyone watched Pool play recently) surprised they came at us immediately?

Regardless of if you were planning on being offensive/defensive, we should have expected that from them and should have been drilled/instructed on some kind of plan to deny them, close the space, slow the tempo for at least the first 15-20 minutes, instead all our players looked on the back foot, looked genuinely caught out.

I guess you will say that's players, I say its coaching

No, the players coming out dozy is a completely legitimate criticism of both them and Sherwood.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agree with this. Do we know if Sandro is 100% fit though? Was it tactical or enforced?

To play a half fit Sandro from the start, would have been equally foolhardy IMO.

Someone had to sit in the centre or we had to drop the defensive line. How many times do we need to play before Sherwood sees it?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Depends on what you consider the best way to stop them from scoring. Offence as defence is a legitimate plan in that regard.

I've lost count of the number of times on here when people have decried the fact we've sat back and let teams come at us. And I think that would have been a poor plan against this Liverpool team. Their weakness is at the back, so let's try to play the game up there rather than in front of our own D, which is where they are lethal. There is merit to that logic and it's what Sherwood went with.

I'd have seen no harm putting Sandro in there in place of Siggy, because it's not as though Sandro has zero forward-looking ability, but this wouldn't actually have helped with any of their goals today.

It would with the coutinho one. It also would with our general ability to stop them running at our defense. Football is so dynamic that one player can change the course of an entire game with a single pass.

People are acting (not you though) as if playing Sandro is saying let's park the bus, were not good enough against Liverpool when they are not. In fact they are saying, I've watched Liverpool this year, that little coutinho chap likes to pop up in and around spaces in front of the back 4, although at least we have Sandro to counteract that. Oh, he's not playing, must be injured. No wait, he's on the bench??? Wtf?