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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Bishop said:
This is what he said, he thinks we should be 3rd like Villa, he thinks all of those are winnable games. Where am I misunderstanding the his words?
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Mate, I respect you, but either you are frustrated with me directly or purposely being a wind up at this point

To make the right assumption that you are seriously not understanding me, I'll make one more attempt (we can agree to disagree)

- Each of those games are/were winnable
- No squad, especially not one in the position we are in, will win every single game that is either winnable or a game expected to win
- That said, I believe, and the games showed (Wolves at home, +2 points, Sunderland at home +2 points, Fulham at home +1 point, Bournemouth at home +1 point), if we had simply done that little bit more, we would be 5th and nobody would be discussing firing Frank.
- I also believe everything I said above should be an expectation of this club, and if it isn't then Frank, Vinai, Lange should all go, because our expectation should be to beat those teams, our spend demands it, our ambition (the thing we aren't there yet, that we have work to do, is to compete/beat the top 6-8 teams)
- All of the above is based on current squad, and while Frank has genuine circumstances against him, like Ange, like every other manager, surely no one could have watched us this season and believe he could not have gotten more out of the squad.

To the Villa point, I said the league is brick this season, IF we had our brick together (it's literally in the piece you quoted from me, IF), we don't, we have manager issues, injuries, lack of squad balance), Villa isn't having an unbeaten season, in 21 games they have lost 4 games already, Scum have also lost 4 games (for perspective, a "normal" season, say 22/23, 3 out of top 4 lost 6 or less games all season), this season had the potential to be a Leicester season for someone.

Bishop said:
100% I just don't think we should have 16 more points.
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And to quote you, nobody believes we should have 16 more, but for simple context, had we won our home game against Villa, the gap would be 10 (3 less for them, 3 more for us), that in the scenario had we won the extra 6 points I showed you above plus that Villa home game, and we would be 4th, 1 point behind them .. And all of that is predicated on simply have got 9 more points at home, 9 points at home btw would place us only 11th on the home form table for the season, (behind Sunderland, Brighton, Bournemouth, not even top half and not beating any of the traditional big teams)

You think I'm being unreasonable/deluded because my expectation is literally our home form would be 2 points better than Leeds (vs. 7 points worse as it currently is), that this squad could be reasonably expected to beat a team that is one of the historically worse teams ever in the PL and plays a 34 yr old Doherty at CB

Like I said mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I simply can't agree with that perspective, I simply don't agree our home form is 7 points worse off than Leeds because their squad is so much better and ours is so much worse (like literally what fudging 3 players would you take from Leeds?)
 
thfcsteff said:
Ange had them and they fitted his priorities. Thomas has had the benefit of a fit CB pairing for most of the season, which fits his priorities. Horses for courses?!
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Actually, seeing our xGA is so much better than last year, I guess you could say it shows that when he has good players available, he gets good outcomes... by the same logic. if he had Madders and Kulu since the start of the season.....
 
Raziel said:
Mate, I respect you, but either you are frustrated with me directly or purposely being a wind up at this point

To make the right assumption that you are seriously not understanding me, I'll make one more attempt (we can agree to disagree)

- Each of those games are/were winnable
- No squad, especially not one in the position we are in, will win every single game that is either winnable or a game expected to win
- That said, I believe, and the games showed (Wolves at home, +2 points, Sunderland at home +2 points, Fulham at home +1 point, Bournemouth at home +1 point), if we had simply done that little bit more, we would be 5th and nobody would be discussing firing Frank.
- I also believe everything I said above should be an expectation of this club, and if it isn't then Frank, Vinai, Lange should all go, because our expectation should be to beat those teams, our spend demands it, our ambition (the thing we aren't there yet, that we have work to do, is to compete/beat the top 6-8 teams)
- All of the above is based on current squad, and while Frank has genuine circumstances against him, like Ange, like every other manager, surely no one could have watched us this season and believe he could not have gotten more out of the squad.

To the Villa point, I said the league is brick this season, IF we had our brick together (it's literally in the piece you quoted from me, IF), we don't, we have manager issues, injuries, lack of squad balance), Villa isn't having an unbeaten season, in 21 games they have lost 4 games already, Scum have also lost 4 games (for perspective, a "normal" season, say 22/23, 3 out of top 4 lost 6 or less games all season), this season had the potential to be a Leicester season for someone.



And to quote you, nobody believes we should have 16 more, but for simple context, had we won our home game against Villa, the gap would be 10 (3 less for them, 3 more for us), that in the scenario had we won the extra 6 points I showed you above plus that Villa home game, and we would be 4th, 1 point behind them .. And all of that is predicated on simply have got 9 more points at home, 9 points at home btw would place us only 11th on the home form table for the season, (behind Sunderland, Brighton, Bournemouth, not even top half and not beating any of the traditional big teams)

You think I'm being unreasonable/deluded because my expectation is literally our home form would be 2 points better than Leeds (vs. 7 points worse as it currently is), that this squad could be reasonably expected to beat a team that is one of the historically worse teams ever in the PL and plays a 34 yr old Doherty at CB

Like I said mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I simply can't agree with that perspective, I simply don't agree our home form is 7 points worse off than Leeds because their squad is so much better and ours is so much worse (like literally what fudging 3 players would you take from Leeds?)
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I'm just quite specific with words, so when you say should be winning then I take what you say as what you mean.

I think where we differ is for you, the current and last coach have massively underperformed versus the quality of the players they have, whereas for me I think they've underperformed but not to a great extent. I think what we are seeing is a fairly accurate representation of what we have and what we are.

An average side will put in average performances. Sometimes that will be beating City and sometimes that will be losing at home to Brentford. If you want to see better you're gonna have to see better players because coaching is always limited by the potential and ability of the players they have.
 
Bishop said:
I'm just quite specific with words, so when you say should be winning then I take what you say as what you mean.

I think where we differ is for you, the current and last coach have massively underperformed versus the quality of the players they have, whereas for me I think they've underperformed but not to a great extent. I think what we are seeing is a fairly accurate representation of what we have and what we are.

An average side will put in average performances. Sometimes that will be beating City and sometimes that will be losing at home to Brentford. If you want to see better you're gonna have to see better players because coaching is always limited by the potential and ability of the players they have.
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Bishop said:
I'm just quite specific with words, so when you say should be winning then I take what you say as what you mean.

I think where we differ is for you, the current and last coach have massively underperformed versus the quality of the players they have, whereas for me I think they've underperformed but not to a great extent. I think what we are seeing is a fairly accurate representation of what we have and what we are.

An average side will put in average performances. Sometimes that will be beating City and sometimes that will be losing at home to Brentford. If you want to see better you're gonna have to see better players because coaching is always limited by the potential and ability of the players they have.
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I was specific enough, should be winning any of the games individually does not equate should be winning all of the games (sport simply doesn't work like that)

As I said, I expect with this squad to do better than earning 7 less points than Leeds has at home over the first 21 games, clearly you don't, so we are where we are.
 
Mabspurs said:
Actually, seeing our xGA is so much better than last year, I guess you could say it shows that when he has good players available, he gets good outcomes... by the same logic. if he had Madders and Kulu since the start of the season.....
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xGA being better this year, playing a much more defensive system AND having the best two defenders available AND STILL not getting great results probably doesn’t say much.

The question I have with the idea that things will massively improve in an attacking sense with Deki and Madders is that they would be playing in a system that doesn’t find them in good positions. Any mix of Xavi, Odobert, Kolo, and Kudus is minimally capable of playing more progressive football than we’re seeing.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
xGA being better this year, playing a much more defensive system AND having the best two defenders available AND STILL not getting great results probably doesn’t say much.

The question I have with the idea that things will massively improve in an attacking sense with Deki and Madders is that they would be playing in a system that doesn’t find them in good positions. Any mix of Xavi, Odobert, Kolo, and Kudus is minimally capable of playing more progressive football than we’re seeing.
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Ohhhh - I see now.....

When our best players are available and we get good results.... it is because of the players; not the coach

When our best players are not available and we get poor results.... it is not because we are missing the players; but solely because of the coach.

And having the best away record, at least until last week, doesn't say much.... because obviously TF can do no right.

Got it!! Thanks -
 
Mabspurs said:
Actually, seeing our xGA is so much better than last year, I guess you could say it shows that when he has good players available, he gets good outcomes... by the same logic. if he had Madders and Kulu since the start of the season.....
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Hopefully we will all get the chance to see sooner than later. I think it's fair to say their talents alone will elevate matters.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
xGA being better this year, playing a much more defensive system AND having the best two defenders available AND STILL not getting great results probably doesn’t say much.

The question I have with the idea that things will massively improve in an attacking sense with Deki and Madders is that they would be playing in a system that doesn’t find them in good positions. Any mix of Xavi, Odobert, Kolo, and Kudus is minimally capable of playing more progressive football than we’re seeing.
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I have concluded this is either a question you want to see and therefore ask, or you don't. It is a split-point on this forum for sure.
 
thfcsteff said:
I have concluded this is either a question you want to see and therefore ask, or you don't. It is a split-point on this forum for sure.
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I think, taking away all the surrounding noise regarding Frank, that you want to see with any new manager is what they can do with the strongest players available to him for a good amount of time - what we have seen so far is what he has done with a first choice defence and a 2nd choice/patched up attack.

I don't think it's a leap to believe that with 3 of our most effective attackers from last couple of seasons available that we would have fared better at that end of the pitch - and so given the compact nature of the league that could be the difference between the disappointing position we find ourselves in and knocking on the door of having a good season.
 
Welshspur60 said:
It would. Beat those tossers and they are as good as down. Lose and we are right in the relegation mix.
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Good analysis of Tottenham “being in the relegation mix” on the latest Tottenham Way podcast. Given the rate at which the bottom three teams have picked up points this season it is, they conclude, boll ocks from a statistical perspective.
 
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