Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Bishop]

ok, but that leads to a few follow up questions

- We haven't actually fixed anything, it isn't like we are drawing a bunch of games 0-0 with no creativity but hard to break down? and for me, our backline with Paulinha in front of them in a coherent system should be able to defend if we weren't trying to do too much going forward.
- Creativity is great, but you can compensate (as you said with Ange's kamikaze attack), e.g. fill the midfield with runners (why Gray plus Bergvall seems to improve us), be more physical, focus on width, there are other options vs. just "we need to buy x player" most teams in the PL don't have more creative players than us but still do ok.
- I don't think we are close but not that far either, fix the LW, fix the CF position (maybe Solanke with LW and RW working does?)

I'm still struggling because I get everything said but this squad with all it's shortcomings is not a 12th-17th side, I think every team outside of top 6 and Villa/Saudi Sportswashing Machine would probably swap 22 for 22 without a second thought with us.

I think 22 for 22 is hyperbole. There are loads of players and teams who wouldn't swap more than half. Some teams might swap closer to your number, but again those teams are usually better balanced, so they have some key players here and there that they wouldn't want to lose in a swap. Honestly, I think this fan base gaslights itself into thinking our players are better than they really are, even despite the results and performances that are staring us in the faces.

Our defence isn't actually that great in reality. Romero and VDV are good players but not great ones, flanked by poor FBs in a defensive sense at least, and an erratic keeper capable of some great saves but also being a bit of a clown at times. Palhinha is a terrier, but he's quite poor on the ball, whereby for all the good work he does harrying and harassing, it doesn't lead to a solid base in terms of possession.

Our midfield is the land of meh. Palhinha already discussed, pass-back Bentancur, and then the three younger guys, two of whom are more energised runners rather than passers, and Gray, who is still finding his game.

We can focus on width, but the LW options are poor (although I would go with Odobert at the very least). ST doesn't really work. Muani plays well, but he's had a very interrupted season and might not actually offer the goal threat we need. Richy has been OK as a poacher but pretty much awful at every single other thing we need from a striker. I'm being critical, but I'm just unconvinced by this group — it's all rather meh for me, its a squad of the bland.

 

[Bullet]

Good Lordy Lord, you lot can write pages and pages and pages of long posts.

Merry Christmas, if and when it comes.

 

[thfcsteff]

Quality of movement is one thing, Ange had players making runs, Romero rarely ever hit them. I don't rate Johnson but he's a great example, he was often in acres of space. With Toby in the team he would have taken advantage of that space. Romero rarely ever did, because his passing vision and execution are not of the same level.

Romero is a good passer, but on here it's overstated, his passing isn't that great honestly. If you've watched lots of football in Europe over the last couple of decades he's only a solid B star class passer from the back.

I'm done mate.
'A solid B star class passer from the nack' compared to 'lots of European football over the last couple of decades'? Let's just say I disagree. Further, your expanded stance-of-measure in impossible to either evaluate or quantify.

And further, I'll say I think you're somewhat romanticizing a great player who was also part of one of the two best Spurs sides I have seen in my lifetime. Let's just say that a player I loved yet really was a solid 'b' in his class -Sissoko- was nurtured and developed into a very important player for us. This same manager unlocked brilliance in Kane and Eriksen, and let's at least agree that he helped Dele accelerate to being a fantastic player for said-manager's tenure with us.

Let's agree to move on because however much you try to 'win' this 'argument' I'm not having it!

 

[thfcsteff]

Agreed with your points in the last paragraph. I don’t particularly jump up and down with the end of the Liverpool performance for example as if it shows anything. I want more consistent, complete performances. But what I will say is that I think part of Frank’s way is to be able to control, slow and fasten the tempo of games at the right times. And showing the team can raise the tempo when needed is a green shoot IMV.

And where I have defended Frank is that I don’t think he deserves less time because he is not a system manager. Even though he’s more pragmatic, it’s still a way of working that will take a squad some getting used to, especially because it’s so different to what came before. All of when to stay, when to press, when to pass forward, when to hold, you need a whole squad to be in sync with a whole new way and I think it takes time.

My view is if we’re still clearly struggling in say late Feb and it looks like we’d do well to be top half, I’m not buying in for season 2. But if we start showing more consistency, and the second half is much better than the first, I’m happy for another year. Like Poch’s Chelsea season - he ended really strong and started inconsistently. If we get something like that, I’ll be ok. Both because I think that he is making decisions with regards to tempo, intensity and rotation which should pay off in the second half, and because he’s trying to implement a whole new culture and coaching method on a squad used to something else. And I think that deserves some grace.

Poch's Chelsea year was wildly underrated. He walked into a brickshow with 50 or so players to
sift through and an identity to emboss. He was the one who forced the Caicedo signing, and he was the one who gave them a clear identity and purpose. Their run at the end of his season was scary. I was relieved when he got sacked as I think he might've won the title with them, and that would've been soul-destroying!!!

 

[Bishop]

I struggle with evaluating our passers because of the runner point.

So many times, certain players have actually put the ball into a good space and no one was there, not a bad pass, just no runner or no one taking the chance. I think it's noticeable that RKM and Xavi have a pass or two each game that goes to a space with no player, a space they expected someone to be. That's on Frank.

Johnson is consistently in open space, you see it when you go to the games. I've specifically mentioned it at game I've been present at. The pass never comes, now maybe Romero doesn't think Johnson can handle those passes but the point is that pass doesn't get made, Toby would have and did make those exact passes and more difficult ones as illustrated in the video.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

My stance at the end of last season was that there was a version of the football we attempted to play that needed some significant rebalancing, mainly via recruitment and some adjustment of the system to be a little bit more considered it could be a start fruitful.

So we aren't a million miles off, but I probably think we need a hell of a lot more work than you do. For example I do think Ange's full court press, kamikaze attack compensated significantly for the actual lack of finesse and quality specifically in the final third. I don't believe that just turning down the level say 15% would get us the balance we needed defensively as well as still keeping a good attacking threat especially when honestly I didn't even think we were good in an attacking sense under Ange even with kamikaze football in full effect.

Which brings us to where we are today with a manager who is trying to fix the leaking sieve that is our defence and has rebalanced too far defensively and the lack of quality in attack is far more exposed, but again a Silva would probably have a better balance but for me no amount of balance is getting this squad to defend well and attack well at the same time, but that's just my view.

I think I just look upon football differently to you, and it’s great because it’s all about opinions and I’m by no means completely right.

For instance though I don’t look at it like Ange left a failing defence and therefore we need someone to come in and ‘fix’ that. I look at it like, if we’re gonna have Ange, let’s see what we can do with the players that suit his system. Because if it works, it works as a whole. We swarm teams, we play the game in their half, and we concede less by virtue of putting in complete performances that way. I wanted to see an Ange team with depth in the winger positions, in the 6, in the LCB position, and probably left back too. Then I think that would have been really interesting.

I don’t think Frank is here to ‘fix’ something and if he was, if either he or the board thought the reason to appoint Frank was to fix the defence, I’d say that’s a really silly reason to hire him. Because football isn’t played on one half of the pitch and again, systems work on the whole. If Frank’s system is working, we are going to be at times hard to break down when we drop deep, we’re going to counter at the right moments, and we’re going to show creativity when we need to against teams that sit deep like against Brentford. But getting to that point takes time. If Frank’s methods aren’t gelling, it doesn’t matter how inherently defensive his tactics are, we will still concede goals.

And each manager, be it Silva or otherwise, will be trying to get the team executing on some bigger idea that hopefully provides them a strategic advantage vs other clubs. I don’t believe there is some magic level of balance, I think it’s about having an idea, and trying as much as possible to allow the coach to build towards that ideas with the players he is supplied. I don’t think Ange ever really got to show what we could do with depth in the positions that he really needed. I don’t think Frank has had the time to really get the players to fully absorb what he is asking yet - and it took Brentford initially some time too so I’m not surprised there.

Long story short, I think we will see better attacking and defending once the players are in sync and able to consistently execute what the manager wants under the pressure of competitive games. And I think there’s a pretty good chance we see that second half of the season. And if we do, it won’t be because our players are suddenly way better than they are today.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

ok, but that leads to a few follow up questions

- We haven't actually fixed anything, it isn't like we are drawing a bunch of games 0-0 with no creativity but hard to break down? and for me, our backline with Paulinha in front of them in a coherent system should be able to defend if we weren't trying to do too much going forward.
- Creativity is great, but you can compensate (as you said with Ange's kamikaze attack), e.g. fill the midfield with runners (why Gray plus Bergvall seems to improve us), be more physical, focus on width, there are other options vs. just "we need to buy x player" most teams in the PL don't have more creative players than us but still do ok.
- I don't think we are close but not that far either, fix the LW, fix the CF position (maybe Solanke with LW and RW working does?)

I'm still struggling because I get everything said but this squad with all it's shortcomings is not a 12th-17th side, I think every team outside of top 6 and Villa/Saudi Sportswashing Machine would probably swap 22 for 22 without a second thought with us.

I agree with most of this. I’m more sympathetic of Frank in that I think we will see things ‘solved’ second half of the season probably. Equally, I don’t believe the right way to look at it is that Frank is here to ‘solve’ something that Ange left behind. He is embarking on his own project, and is going to need time. It’s a whole new thing. And until the players are fully comfortable executing it under pressure, we’ll still concede goals when sitting deep and we’ll fail to score when pushing forward. But at some point it will click (hopefully) and if and when it does, the output will look better on both ends.

 

[veryoldspur]

But he did start well
With a small squad
Having lost the best player he had
He got us 5th

That was based on the first ten games of the season, otherwise we would have got us relegated. I stick by what I said, Ange was hopeless, but I'm not that impressed with Frank either. He has come from a club where success was considered not getting relegated, and he's struggling to meet much higher expectations. I am not calling for his head YET, but our squad is far better than than our results, and that only means one thing!