• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Thomas Frank - Head Coach

No, I am just willing to give it time, knowing that we're 4 attacking (creative) players down from last season, and need to let the likes of Xavi bed in.
The ball isn't getting to those attacking players in a way that allows them to be successful. It seems you don't want to actually look at the way we are playing football and our patterns for moving the ball forward so I'll stop banging my head against a brick wall. Maybe the manager will magically decide to use the middle of the pitch when our missing players are back (I really hope he does) I'm just don't see it happening.
 
I think we need to keep Frank for the season, mainly because we're already considered a basket case of a club and if getting rid of Frank we'd likely only end up with a substandard caretaker manager anyway for the rest of the season. However, I'm not seeing anything at all in our play that indicates we are going to be in the mix for trophies or a top 7 spot in the league and I'm certainly not at all entertained by the football.

What is it that you are seeing that makes you think it's going to turn around and start to play good football?

I want us to become a better football club in the long term, I am not making any long term judgement on what the football might look like come the end of the season after the introduction/reintroduction of better players. Not after 5 months, not when I saw Brentford play good football so I don't agree with the idea this sample size if the peak of what Frank can achieve.

If we are 12th and the footballs exactly the same as this, especially once out the CL and with better players, I will have grave views on his time, till then he gets my support based on what I have said above
 
Last edited:
The ball isn't getting to those attacking players in a way that allows them to be successful. It seems you don't want to actually look at the way we are playing football and our patterns for moving the ball forward so I'll stop banging my head against a brick wall. Maybe the manager will magically decide to use the middle of the pitch when our missing players are back (I really hope he does) I'm just don't see it happening.

On the contarary watching the last game I saw us transition the ball pretty well for 60 mins. As the enegy levels dropped and Sunderland pushed forward we didn't have enough quality on the bench to counter them. But our XG was higher and if you're fixated with XG we were in the ascendency in both of the last two games!
 
But that was probably because we were trying to pass progressively. It is natural that you'll complete fewer passes if trying to make riskier passes.
Certainly but you don't end up in the bottom five of any ranking just because you're trying to pass the ball forward. We weren't the only ones to try to take the game to the opposition, even if I'll admit that our approach was certainly... extreme.

Palinha, Sarr, even Bergvall, Kudus or Kulusevski - regardless of our style of play, which of these guys has the ability to pick a defense-splitting pass or find a team-mate in a pocket of space? I'd argue that some of them would struggle to do that at pedestrian pace, so considering how fast the Premier League is...

Of course, some of them offer something different, but I'd say that our midfield basically has two types of players: energetic box-to-box midfielders and people who can carry the ball/run with it. That makes for a very one-dimensional team, no matter who the manager is. From that point of view, Simons was a welcome addition (at least, he brings something different to the table), but it seems Frank is having a tough time fitting him in.
 
I think most fans accept that Frank needs time, though don't understand why he has turned Spurs into one of the least attacking teams in the league, who rarely if ever play progressive passes or make progressive carries.

There are some illogical, won't admit there's a problem fans who will support Frank no matter what. They correlate with those who wanted Ange out, so rather than judge the new man by the same standards they judged Ange by, they've gone all in that this is some sort of negative football period that will magically transform into an attacking period after time, or that suddenly the players aren't good enough despite them apparently being more than good enough for the previous manager.

The team got no brick at all during the game at the weekend. The support was pretty good. Frank is getting some stick from the fans but that is because those that go to the games can see how negative his tactics for the players are.
The same people who said the players aren't good enough this season are the same ones who said they weren't good enough last season also.
 
On the contarary watching the last game I saw us transition the ball pretty well for 60 mins. As the enegy levels dropped and Sunderland pushed forward we didn't have enough quality on the bench to counter them. But our XG was higher than ours and if you're fixated with XG we were in the ascendency in both of the last two games!
What I saw was us pressing in the first half and turning over the ball via our pressing. I didn't see great ball progression. By the way I think this is a good start - I was called 'fixated by pressing' a short while ago by somebody (might've been you?) I'm not fixated by high pressing but teams that are poor at progressing the ball should try to make use of a high press if it wants to be able to create high quality chances.

I see I am now apparently fixated on XG... well to help you nurture that belief - as I have already said our XG at home to Sunderland was just over 1, with less than 0.5 of that XG coming from open play. That would tell most people that we're not progressing the ball well as we're not working ourselves into positions where we can shoot and, better still, score. If and when I see us creating decent chances under Frank then I'll happily call it out.

I was interested to see some people talk about us having poor players or being poor at passing so I took a look at our stats this season and, last season

Open Play passes completed: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 11th
Passing Accuracy: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 10th
Forward Passes Attempted: 24/25 = 4th, 25/26 = 13th
Passes Completed Opponents Half: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 12th

Very interesting that as well as being less progressive and creating fewer chances we're also making fewer passes and making them less accurately. That indicates to me that the team is too deep and teams are finding it easy to defend against our pattern of moving the ball up the sides of the pitch only. Of course the trade-off is that there are fewer good transition opportunities for the opposition so they should create fewer good goalscoring chances themselves, as I posted in another post somewhere at present our XG is just under 1 per game, while our XGA is just over 1 per game, which is poor by general Tottenham standards.
 
I've been looking at some of our passing networks from last season, to see if i have been misremembering how we played, and it shows our build up play coming primarily through the wide positions with the central midfielders mostly playing the ball out to that area of the pitch, rather than through the middle. This idea our central midfielders were playing line breaking creative passes regularly before Frank arrived doesn't stand up to scrutiny*

*based on the handful of random games I checked
 
The same people who said the players aren't good enough this season are the same ones who said they weren't good enough last season also.
Maybe they were just a particularly vociferous minority but I seem to remember a lot of comments that insinuated the manager was the only problem and that the players we have should have us in the top 6 (which I disagreed with then and still do now by the way).
 
I've been looking at some of our passing networks from last season, to see if i have been misremembering how we played, and it shows our build up play coming primarily through the wide positions with the central midfielders mostly playing the ball out to that area of the pitch, rather than through the middle. This idea our central midfielders were playing line breaking creative passes regularly before Frank arrived doesn't stand up to scrutiny*

*based on the handful of random games I checked
Somebody (sorry can't remember who) posted Bentancur, Romero and VDV's stats wheels the other day. The differences were quite telling.
 
What I saw was us pressing in the first half and turning over the ball via our pressing. I didn't see great ball progression. By the way I think this is a good start - I was called 'fixated by pressing' a short while ago by somebody (might've been you?) I'm not fixated by high pressing but teams that are poor at progressing the ball should try to make use of a high press if it wants to be able to create high quality chances.
Shouldn't you be pleased then at the way we played?

I see I am now apparently fixated on XG... well to help you nurture that belief - as I have already said our XG at home to Sunderland was just over 1, with less than 0.5 of that XG coming from open play. That would tell most people that we're not progressing the ball well as we're not working ourselves into positions where we can shoot and, better still, score.
I've been able to see this since the first and every other game of the season. Doesn't need a stat to know that our final third play is lacking. And who'd have thought it missing Solanke, Kulu, Maddison (and Son with no LW replacment yet).
If and when I see us creating decent chances under Frank then I'll happily call it out.
Through gritted teeth maybe!
I was interested to see some people talk about us having poor players or being poor at passing so I took a look at our stats this season and, last season

Open Play passes completed: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 11th
Passing Accuracy: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 10th
Forward Passes Attempted: 24/25 = 4th, 25/26 = 13th
Passes Completed Opponents Half: 24/25 = 6th, 25/26 = 12th

Very interesting that as well as being less progressive and creating fewer chances we're also making fewer passes and making them less accurately. That indicates to me that the team is too deep and teams are finding it easy to defend against our pattern of moving the ball up the sides of the pitch only. Of course the trade-off is that there are fewer good transition opportunities for the opposition so they should create fewer good goalscoring chances themselves, as I posted in another post somewhere at present our XG is just under 1 per game, while our XGA is just over 1 per game, which is poor by general Tottenham standards.
Considering the players we're missing and that Xavi and Muani are settling in, there is no suprise there. Kudus is decent, but not a world beater. We need more through the middle (maddison/kulu) and we need someone on the left to step up or be signed. This is so obvious and staring you in the face.
 
Shouldn't you be pleased then at the way we played?


I've been able to see this since the first and every other game of the season. Doesn't need a stat to know that our final third play is lacking. And who'd have thought it missing Solanke, Kulu, Maddison (and Son with no LW replacment yet).

Through gritted teeth maybe!

Considering the players we're missing and that Xavi and Muani are settling in, there is no suprise there. Kudus is decent, but not a world beater. We need more through the middle (maddison/kulu) and we need someone on the left to step up or be signed. This is so obvious and staring you in the face.
If we had continued playing on the front foot then I would've been pleased. It was disappointing to see us drop into a mid block that become more and more of a low block as the second half progressed. If we are going to be a team that avoids making progressive passes (as we clearly are) then it is important for us to press. We'll see in the next few games whether us being higher up the pitch in the first half against Sunderland is Frank changing his tactics to be more positive or simply because Sunderland themselves dropped off so deep.
 
There was a significant difference in the progressive carry and pass numbers (same for Romero and VDV).

You're right, I've been back and checked.

I maintain though, having been through the passing maps, the common theme is that the passing from central midfield was out to the wide players - very little by way of vertical passing from the central midfielders, Bentancur included. Given the argument is regarding the horshoe effect of the current setup and that our central midfielders should be/are capable of playing through the middle of the pitch im yet to see evidence of that - progressive passes and so on do not differentiate between passes out wide vs through the middle.
 
I feel like these sort of stats aren't THAT telling - It doesn't dive into things such as number of games played/European games managed, circumstances was managing under (What's going on at board level/issues with squad), actual points per game rather than just win percentage etc etc

We all know he could be doing better in a lot of areas, but I'm not seeing a lot of downside to just evaluating at the end of the season and see exactly where we are with everything. Right now, whilst we almost to a man agree the football to date has left a lot to be desired we are 4 points off 5th and 2 points off 3rd in the CL so there is no need to go all panic stations and start the managerial conveyor belt just yet just because Frank isn't playing the way we would like - it is far from a disaster, more so underwhelming at the moment. He recognises that the football needs to improve, he has said so a few times so lets see if it comes together for the second half of the season.

And if worst comes to worst would likely be better to recruit a new manager in the summer anyway....
 
You're right, I've been back and checked.

I maintain though, having been through the passing maps, the common theme is that the passing from central midfield was out to the wide players - very little by way of vertical passing from the central midfielders, Bentancur included. Given the argument is regarding the horshoe effect of the current setup and that our central midfielders should be/are capable of playing through the middle of the pitch im yet to see evidence of that - progressive passes and so on do not differentiate between passes out wide vs through the middle.
If you look at the passing stats, they back up what you’re saying: passing through the middle is generally poor, with most of the play coming down the wings. Frank’s system simply exacerbates that weakness. I’ve seen the numbers as well, and they’re clearly worse now, but that’s largely because his style exposes the squad’s underlying lack of passing quality. The root of the problem is the limited passing range and execution to begin with. Ange was able to mask it to some extent by using a short-passing approach that encouraged close combinations, but the actual quality of the passing wasn’t any better.

Which is why people like myself, @fernadez and @Jurgen the German were speaking about it even before last season but in the window particularly.
 
Our Europa League results came because we played against lesser competition than the PL. In the final we played a team that struggled as much as we did, the semi finals Bodo etc. We were one of the big favourites going in, followed the odds and some put us 1st favorite at the start of the competition. It was hardly a surprise. If this is the main reason you see a resurgence in our form, you have not a lot to stand on.
"Someone else did it" (Aston Villa), doesn't mean we are going to do it. Greece won the EURO 2004, imagine all the same status teams keeping their failing coaches because if Greece had done it, they could do it too. The question is why has Aston Villa done it and we haven't? The Aston Villa form is not a pro-Frank argument, it's an against-Frank one.
Missing Kulusevski, Solanke and Maddison might be a life line but we brought in similar valuable players like Xavi Simmons, Kudus and Kolo Muani. Plus a DM that can actually help the defence and have a very high ball winning and successful tackling performance like Palhinha, which would have helped Ange a lot.
I sense you enjoy being annoyed, possibly in general, but certainly about Spurs, as you are just focusing on the elements that fuel your arguments - there's no pragmatism in your comments.

As regards the Europa League - if you are so dismissive of the competition's quality, why is it that we have not won it in previous years, over and over again? Its a premier competition across Europe and is a major trophy - how many have Spurs won in your life time? Don't dismiss the achievement with such disdain - it was a hell of an achievement for a team that in other areas was in free fall.

I see a resurgence in our form because I think Frank is doing what he is doing right now on purpose to make us hard to beat. I think he's recognised that right now there is a lack of creativity in the team, and thus his logic, for right or for wrong, is to make us hard to beat, and then add creativity as we get players back. On that basis the return of the injured players will be beneficial to that process - my view only - you'll no doubt have yours.

Villa was a microcosm of the league this season. There's 4 points between 5th and 14th. With that in mind, a run of any sort can propel you up the league - which is what has happened with Villa, and which a neg-head such as yourself perceives we are incapable of doing. If Villa can do it, with a squad that is beset with PSR related issues, has goalkeeper and forward issues, then why can't we? The Villa form is an example of what can be done, incidentally, by sticking to your principals and toughing it out when the going gets tough - Emery didn't change or compromise his style, he doubled down and stuck it out. Stability is key, not knee jerk armchair football management, and its certainly not a negative argument as regards Thomas Frank, its a resounding slap on the back for consistency and stability.

Next you compare 3 seasoned footballers with several years of top flight experience (Maddison, Kulusevski and Solanke) to three new signings in Kolo Muani, Simons, and Kudus. Its fair enough if you want to compare them from a talent perspective - I think all three new players stack up pretty well - but tell me, when you started a new job last time around were you able to walk in on day one, and be totally and completely effective in your role from the off? Or did it take you a while to do that before people saw your worth? I ask because this is what you are doing. You're loading 60+ goal involvements from 3 seasoned EPL players onto one new signing from a smaller London club, and two from overseas who are learning their new jobs in a foreign language in another country. In the case of Kolo Muani he's not even had a pre-season. They are not at the level of the three injured guys yet, but the really exciting thing is that when all six are up to speed and available, we will have proper depth of squad at 7,9, and 10. Adding Palhinha was astute but was instigated with Frank in the seat - if Ange had wanted him he would have discussed this and they would have tried.

I accept you're a pessimist and I accept that you will have your views, but I think you're more or less wrong about the direction of travel under Frank. Ange's approach to losing Maddison and Kulusevski last season was to make us hard to beat and less flamboyant - to grind out results - this is exactly what Frank is doing, and he's doing it without Son as well.
 
Back