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The Y word

ShipOfGoldblum said:
And, there is absolutely no way that the word “Yid” has “evolved into the same thing as goon or hammer”. There is a world beyond football, you know. In that world, antisemitism is a thing, and so are antisemitic slurs.
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So reference it being used in that way. I don't believe it is anymore. Prior to Badiel, Spurs fans under 40 had no idea of the history. But when they found out they were somewhat proud of its anti-racist roots within Spurs.
 
SpurMeUp said:
So reference it being used in that way. I don't believe it is anymore. Prior to Badiel, Spurs fans under 40 had no idea of the history. But they were somewhat proud of its anti-racist roots when they found out.
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I remember being told off in my first job for proposing a deal with an Israeli firm. My boss, who had no idea that I was Jewish, told me to “stay away from three-wheelers”, and then unpacked the rhyming slang (skid, apparently). It was as jarring and unpleasant as every other time I’ve heard antisemitic slurs used by people who thought it was okay, and that they were among gentiles. So, yeah, I associate the term with antisemitism rather than football. I’m 49, not sure why that should disqualify me from having a view though.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
I remember being told off in my first job for proposing a deal with an Israeli firm. My boss, who had no idea that I was Jewish, told me to “stay away from three-wheelers”, and then unpacked the rhyming slang (skid, apparently). It was as jarring and unpleasant as every other time I’ve heard antisemitic slurs used by people who thought it was okay, and that they were among gentiles. So, yeah, I associate the term with antisemitism rather than football. I’m 49, not sure why that should disqualify me from having a view though.
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That is the point. In the 80s and 90s it might have been a thing. But the term evolved since then. I completely agree it used to be laden and I remember that time too. But can you say that you've seen or heard racial slurs using the term this millennium? I can say personally I have not. I have heard yid constantly as a call to arms and brotherhood at Spurs. And why shouldn't Spurs fans be proud of their history to standing up to racism, should they look into the history?

I think we can agree regardless that it is far cry from the hissing that chelsea racists used not all that long ago. How should Spurs fans respond to acts of blatant, actual racism? And why was there no light shone on that? Why did Badiel focus on Spurs instead?
 
At the risk of causing a fight on this board.

A simple similarity for me is the n-word. A word that was used to negatively refer to black people. As a Negro, this is going to be like stopping black people referring to each other with the n-word. It is a term that is used especially by folks to greet each other. It has honestly been a long while I used the term possibly because I am no longer in my teens, 20s or 30s. However I always remember the conflicts sometimes humourous where if a non Negro used the n word, we would be tinkled. Meanwhile we using it amongst ourselves is a form of fond greeting. Also similar to the way some people use insults to greet themselves fondly.

The use of the Yid word to me as a Spurs fan is similar - taking a word used with malice by others and turning it into the opposite.

I look forward to what decision will be made. I am not Jewish so I have minimal say in the matter.
 
afsoc4life said:
At the risk of causing a fight on this board.

A simple similarity for me is the n-word. A word that was used to negatively refer to black people. As a Negro, this is going to be like stopping black people referring to each other with the n-word. It is a term that is used especially by folks to greet each other. It has honestly been a long while I used the term possibly because I am no longer in my teens, 20s or 30s. However I always remember the conflicts sometimes humourous where if a non Negro used the n word, we would be tinkled. Meanwhile we using it amongst ourselves is a form of fond greeting. Also similar to the way some people use insults to greet themselves fondly.

The use of the Yid word to me as a Spurs fan is similar - taking a word used with malice by others and turning it into the opposite.

I look forward to what decision will be made. I am not Jewish so I have minimal say in the matter.
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Non-Jews getting overenthusiastic about helpfully reclaiming the y word is a bit like Quentin Tarantino gleefully adding the n word into every second line written for a black character. Although without being compounded by the foot fetishism, of course.
 
As always with Baddiel though:

Yid-pic-1024x640.jpg
 
For me there's a very simple rule with anything like this - context, context, context.

Meant in a positive, inclusive or endearing way = fine. Meant in a cruel or demeaning way = wrong. Words themselves aren't important, intention is.

If anyone wants to read up properly about this, this is always the definitive source (there's a whole chapter on Spurs and Ajax):
 
Gutter Boy said:
For me there's a very simple rule with anything like this - context, context, context.

Meant in a positive, inclusive or endearing way = fine. Meant in a cruel or demeaning way = wrong. Words themselves aren't important, intention is.

If anyone wants to read up properly about this, this is always the definitive source (there's a whole chapter on Spurs and Ajax):
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Gosh this is a tricky subject to discuss.

I have a lot of thoughts on it - most of them not clearly thought through enough to articulate just now - but to this point, for me, as in life, intent doesn’t always negate impact.

I wholeheartedly agree that context is very important, but just because you don’t intend to hurt someone, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t feel hurt. One’s feelings are never wrong, because by their very nature they are just that - personal to the individual.

To stake my colours to the mast, I will no longer use the Y word within a Spurs context - as I did in my youth - as I don’t feel comfortable using a word that makes a specific group of people feel upset, angry, demeaned or hurt.

However, I understand this is a very emotive subject for people on this board and I can understand there are many different views on the matter that don’t necessarily reflect my own.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Non-Jews getting overenthusiastic about helpfully reclaiming the y word is a bit like Quentin Tarantino gleefully adding the n word into every second line written for a black character. Although without being compounded by the foot fetishism, of course.
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He bloody loves a foot, does ol’ Quentin…
 
Frankly, I think that what Spurs fans intend by the use of the word is irrelevant. If members of the Jewish community find it offensive, that should give us pause for thought. It is not non-Jewish Spurs fans word to reclaim. Other fans chanting bad things is irrelevant. We should get our house in order and find something else to sing.
 
milo said:
Frankly, I think that what Spurs fans intend by the use of the word is irrelevant. If members of the Jewish community find it offensive, that should give us pause for thought. It is not non-Jewish Spurs fans word to reclaim. Other fans chanting bad things is irrelevant. We should get our house in order and find something else to sing.
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Refocus on the badger? "rooster army, rooster army"?
 
Grays_1890 said:
Alot of today's crap I've read is akin to "well if you will go out in a short skirt what do you expect"
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The article clearly doesn't say that. The main argument is that whether people find our use of the word offensive goes beyond Spurs fan base and to the wider Jewish community. It is a word with a lot of history and has frequently been used as a racist insult. With less than 5% of the Spurs match going fan base Jewish, it is not our word to "reclaim".
 
milo said:
The article clearly doesn't say that. The main argument is that whether people find our use of the word offensive goes beyond Spurs fan base and to the wider Jewish community. It is a word with a lot of history and has frequently been used as a racist insult. With less than 5% of the Spurs match going fan base Jewish, it is not our word to "reclaim".
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There is a tweet earlier from a reporter for the Athletic with a link between the West Ham abuse and Spurs use of the word which ultimately suggested we ere somehow to blame. I am Jewish so have plenty of skin in the game and it's always been a case with Anti Semitism abuse of there always being a "but" or we should somehow feel guilty for the abuse we receive, I would also argue there is alot less done about it than other "isms"
 
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milo said:
Frankly, I think that what Spurs fans intend by the use of the word is irrelevant. If members of the Jewish community find it offensive, that should give us pause for thought. It is not non-Jewish Spurs fans word to reclaim. Other fans chanting bad things is irrelevant. We should get our house in order and find something else to sing.
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What about Jews that don't find it offensive? Suck it up?
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Non-Jews getting overenthusiastic about helpfully reclaiming the y word is a bit like Quentin Tarantino gleefully adding the n word into every second line written for a black character. Although without being compounded by the foot fetishism, of course.
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Unlike the N word it has never been the Y word that in isolation was the offensive part. It's the prefix of "Dirty" or "fudging" that have made it offensive along with hissing or songs like "Spurs are on their way to Aushwhitz"

A fairer comparison would be the word black, calling someone black isn't racist, calling someone a black bastard is, same as calling a Jew a Yid C-+t, apologies for use of graphic language there but it needed in the contact of the subject.

I've spoken on here plenty about the word Yid being used in family circles as a term of endearment my nan used to call my grandad an old yid if he was having one of his particularly moaning days so I'm not going to be shamed into non use of the word because some motions on a plane can't travel happily without abusing a Jewish man it's just not going to happen. As for other Jews who are offended I get it but I also believe the offense comes from the fact the word has been claimed by rivals for abuse than yhr word being offensive in singular form as I say earlier. But as with me it's not for others to say what they should or should not be offended by. But then comes the rub, what do you do when a percentage of Jewish supporters are not offended and some are?
 
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