The trigger for our down-turn?

[Bedfordspurs]

But do you think that's carrying on?

Yes
so far
hence the comments abiut mentality

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Yes
so far
hence the comments abiut meteorology

But I did post in the other thread that we have 5 new players that are not part of the Poch era. And on top of that last the thing I could accuse Kane, Son, Winks, Sissoko, Dier Lamela, Moura is dialling it in. They may not sometimes be good enough but they give it their all?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just trying to work out what makes sense.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But I did post in the other thread that we have 5 new players that are not part of the Poch era. And on top of that last the thing I could accuse Kane, Son, Winks, Sissoko, Dier Lamela, Moura is dialling it in. They may not sometimes be good enough but they give it their all?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just trying to work out what makes sense.

No leadership on the pitch
Players giving their all in the least affective way
Players playing the same way they Walsh have rather than the way they have been coached my am issue
And of course stupid players
But we were outfought on Thursday. Where was the desire... love or hate sissoko he has desire (shame he can’t pass)

and of the 5 new players only 2 are playing

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No leadership on the pitch
Players giving their all in the least affective way
Players playing the same way they Walsh have rather than the way they have been coached my am issue
And of course stupid players
But we were outfought on Thursday. Where was the desire... love or hate sissoko he has desire (shame he can’t pass)

and of the 5 new players only 2 are playing

Has that leadership disappeared from when we were decent? (As most of the players are the same) Or was it because Poch was the leader and everyone bought fully into his ways? And desire and will to win naturally follows that?

Of course we may have just regressed talent wise and it's harder to actually win?

 

[thfcsteff]

Has that leadership disappeared from when we were decent? (As most of the players are the same) Or was it because Poch was the leader and everyone bought fully into his ways? And desire and will to win naturally follows that?

Of course we may have just regressed talent wise and it's harder to actually win?

I think it is all about the manager in these situations.

When the manager is solid, strong and dictating a solid plan, then the players are there. We saw that when Poch got upset around Christmas 2018 going into 2019, the players started to lose focus. I'd actually tab the Wolves home match at Wembley as a pivotal moment. That was a match we were winning comfortably, only to literally throw it away. But as people did point out at the time (not me I confess as I was too focussed on hoping we could scrape the CL Final and top 4 - which we somehow did) Poch's mood shifted the last few months (likely as he saw that he was imply not ever going to get what he really wanted) and our performances suffered (injuries did not help, absolutely brutal as I remember). In fact, the CL was the ONLY thing which Poch was focussed for, and in turn, the players too got engaged and gave their absolute all.

If you're a player right now, where's Jose's plan? Is it all about Roadrunnerball? If so, we need to sell a couple of our top players because they are footballers not greyhounds chasing a rabbit.

 

[scaramanga]

Haven't read the whole thread...

For me the one thing that stands out is sticking with Pochettino when he (in hindsight at least) seemed to lack the focus/determination/happiness that was so important while he was successful.

I know people will disagree saying that Levy should have kept him happy by giving him more money, signing different players etc.

He had stayed at the club for a fairly long time. Longer than he had at any club before. Perhaps he could have continued his success, but it's a difficult thing.

Not letting him go sooner (a year or so would have been best) was a big mistake.

Not one I can criticise, I would have given Poch until the summer too. Perfect example of why sentiment should be left out of all decisions.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Has that leadership disappeared from when we were decent? (As most of the players are the same) Or was it because Poch was the leader and everyone bought fully into his ways? And desire and will to win naturally follows that?

Of course we may have just regressed talent wise and it's harder to actually win?

I’m not convinced we had leadership on the pitch when it mattered
Hence why we didn’t win any of the games we could have to get to finals or win the trophies
We lost how many semis?
We lost two finals under Poch and both were examples where on the pitch players didn’t know what to do to change things up
Football has become more and more about being “coached” and less and less about being able to play. Teams are about systems.
Leadership on and off the pitch needs to have a backbone, and be willing to say the things that matter when they matter and we haven’t had that for years

 

[Pirate55]

I think it is all about the manager.

You said it right. I'm not going to rehearse all the negatives about Poch as that would be futile.

To answer the question posed, it is simple. Our transfer policy. Yes there were mitigating factors, such as the new stadium, but we have been real dunces in the market for the last few years. Don't say Levy didn't back Poch. He bought 27 players during his regime including expensive signings Sanchez (record buy) Sissoko ( record buy), Aurier, Lucas, Sessegnon, and NDombele (record buy) . He also bought plenty of players with potential. How many were a success that improved our first team.

Furthermore, Levy backed Poch to the hilt by not selling any key players from under him. Walker was set on leaving anyway so Levy got top dollar for him. Dembele regrettably was finished at the highest level. Compare with Liverpool who lost Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho. There would have been uproar on here if Levy had sold Kane, Dele and Eriksen. In retrospect, we probably should have sold Eriksen as soon as he told Poch he wasn't going to sign a new contract and reinvested the top dollar we would have got for him then.

So, the question remains. Who presdided over the transfer policy. I find it incredible that Levy would buy players the coach didn't want. He then wouldn't play them so what would be the point? The managers fingerprints are all over our transfer policy. The only question is to what extent is he culpable? For me, he bears the most responsibility.

I read an interview with Campos (the guy at Lille I would like to see as our DoF). He said the transfer committee identify three positions which need improving in any transfer window. Let say CF, DM, FB. They then discuss and agree a budget - say £100m for arguments sake. They then seek to identify three targets in each position 1. Their prime target ( expensive) 2. Their back up target ( reasonably priced) and 3. A player who would potentially do the job - i.e. a youngster with potential or an experienced old head ( cheapish). They then start negotiating. Let's say they got their prime DM target and he cost £50m. Then they all know there is only £50m left to spend on the CF and FB.

This strategy seems to me to be cogent and coherent and was sadly lacking in the Poch era. Must do better.

 

[Baleforce]

A major difference in spending between us and the dippers is that they were offered Bale level money for a Tom Carroll level player.

If we were involved in a continental money laundering scam we’d have a bit more to spend too.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I read an interview with Campos (the guy at Lille I would like to see as our DoF). He said the transfer committee identify three positions which need improving in any transfer window. Let say CF, DM, FB. They then discuss and agree a budget - say £100m for arguments sake. They then seek to identify three targets in each position 1. Their prime target ( expensive) 2. Their back up target ( reasonably priced) and 3. A player who would potentially do the job - i.e. a youngster with potential or an experienced old head ( cheapish). They then start negotiating. Let's say they got their prime DM target and he cost £50m. Then they all know there is only £50m left to spend on the CF and FB.

This strategy seems to me to be cogent and coherent and was sadly lacking in the Poch era. Must do better.

But that hardly sounds rocket science methodology? And with someone as keen as Levy when it comes to budgets it would not surprise me if our transfer approach was framed in this way. Of course if our signings are more miss than hit that might reflect more on other parts of the recruitment process. Even in the system above i'd suggest no.3 option would get classified as 'bargain bin cast offs' on here, ie unacceptable to them.

 

[Pirate55]

But that hardly sounds rocket science methodology? And with someone as keen as Levy when it comes to budgets it would not surprise me if our transfer approach was framed in this way. Of course if our signings are more miss than hit that might reflect more on other parts of the recruitment process. Even in the system above i'd suggest no.3 option would get classified as 'bargain bin cast offs' on here, ie unacceptable to them.

Not rocket science I agree, just a cogent coherent and sensible strategy which has been sadly lacking in recent times. How many wide forwards do we need? What was the reasoning behind getting Clarke and Sess? And then also buying Bergy? We already have Son, Moura, Lamela for that single position!
If we bought an option three that would have been offset by maybe two option 1’s in the other positions.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Football has become more and more about being “coached” and less and less about being able to play. Teams are about systems.

And that's why the coach is everything. Any coach that can get a team to perform greater than the sum of its parts is gold. That doesn't necessarily mean success, just that you are higher than you should be. The only way they know they can achieve that is total buy-in, belief, commitment to a culture, approach, system laid down by the manager/coach.

As a sidenote for the health of footbal generally, the great thing about it, is it has shown that the richest clubs don't always have it their own way all of the time

Poch,Klopp,Simone,Rodgers,Naglesmann, NE Santo, Wilder are all about this. Of course if you have a combo of this type of manager and a bigger budget that will only increase the chances of going all the way.

I would not include Pep, and Jose in this list. They are great managers but have nearly always had money (*Porto) BUT the ingredient i dont like with either is (when it comes to football) they will always protect themselves when brick happens (probably narcissistic?), it never feels like they are protecting the whole (ie club, team), with the others i do.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Not rocket science I agree, just a cogent coherent and sensible strategy which has been sadly lacking in recent times. How many wide forwards do we need? What was the reasoning behind getting Clarke and Sess? And then also buying Bergy? We already have Son, Moura, Lamela for that single position!
If we bought an option three that would have been offset by maybe two option 1’s in the other positions.

i can see what your saying from your example, so maybe a DofF has been lacking? I agreed with others that during his distraction with the stadium a DofF would have been crucial BUT maybe Levy and Poch thought they could handle it (things were going well), maybe Poch had earned too much trust because he'd done so well? The other reason i thought why we didn't employ one was because we had no effing money for a DofF to spend anyway

It looked lined up for this Campo guy to join......can't we just get him on board ffs?

 

[thfcsteff]

You said it right. I'm not going to rehearse all the negatives about Poch as that would be futile.

To answer the question posed, it is simple. Our transfer policy. Yes there were mitigating factors, such as the new stadium, but we have been real dunces in the market for the last few years. Don't say Levy didn't back Poch. He bought 27 players during his regime including expensive signings Sanchez (record buy) Sissoko ( record buy), Aurier, Lucas, Sessegnon, and NDombele (record buy) . He also bought plenty of players with potential. How many were a success that improved our first team.

Furthermore, Levy backed Poch to the hilt by not selling any key players from under him. Walker was set on leaving anyway so Levy got top dollar for him. Dembele regrettably was finished at the highest level. Compare with Liverpool who lost Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho. There would have been uproar on here if Levy had sold Kane, Dele and Eriksen. In retrospect, we probably should have sold Eriksen as soon as he told Poch he wasn't going to sign a new contract and reinvested the top dollar we would have got for him then.

So, the question remains. Who presdided over the transfer policy. I find it incredible that Levy would buy players the coach didn't want. He then wouldn't play them so what would be the point? The managers fingerprints are all over our transfer policy. The only question is to what extent is he culpable? For me, he bears the most responsibility.

I read an interview with Campos (the guy at Lille I would like to see as our DoF). He said the transfer committee identify three positions which need improving in any transfer window. Let say CF, DM, FB. They then discuss and agree a budget - say £100m for arguments sake. They then seek to identify three targets in each position 1. Their prime target ( expensive) 2. Their back up target ( reasonably priced) and 3. A player who would potentially do the job - i.e. a youngster with potential or an experienced old head ( cheapish). They then start negotiating. Let's say they got their prime DM target and he cost £50m. Then they all know there is only £50m left to spend on the CF and FB.

This strategy seems to me to be cogent and coherent and was sadly lacking in the Poch era. Must do better.

The question I was answering was about leadership not transfer policy you Cheeky Pirate! But took a few words from a reply I had written to another topic, stripped them of context and appropriated them to fit your agenda. Dare I say it, political at best but The Sun always has room

I really won't rehash the "transfer policy" thing again, but have to have you up on the Liverpool bit. You speak about them losing Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho. The ONLY one of those sold by Klopp was Coutinho, and that was after Klopp finally sanctioned the sale with the knowledge he could then buy VVD and whoever else he needed (a goalkeeper it turned out).

 

[glasgowspur]

I think it is all about the manager in these situations.

When the manager is solid, strong and dictating a solid plan, then the players are there. We saw that when Poch got upset around Christmas 2018 going into 2019, the players started to lose focus. I'd actually tab the Wolves home match at Wembley as a pivotal moment. That was a match we were winning comfortably, only to literally throw it away. But as people did point out at the time (not me I confess as I was too focussed on hoping we could scrape the CL Final and top 4 - which we somehow did) Poch's mood shifted the last few months (likely as he saw that he was imply not ever going to get what he really wanted) and our performances suffered (injuries did not help, absolutely brutal as I remember). In fact, the CL was the ONLY thing which Poch was focussed for, and in turn, the players too got engaged and gave their absolute all.

If you're a player right now, where's Jose's plan? Is it all about Roadrunnerball? If so, we need to sell a couple of our top players because they are footballers not greyhounds chasing a rabbit.

I called it during that game, it was like watching an era end in front of our eyes.
Got pilloried for it, but it was there for all to see. A game turned away from us and they all looked to each other for inspiration and leadership, no one was stepping up. That's when some started realising that there was one very important ingredient missing from this squad, that desire to win and win at any cost.
There's a few that talk the talk, but none that walk the walk.
We are a squad of settlers, have been for quite a while.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I called it during that game, it was like watching an era end in front of our eyes.
Got pilloried for it, but it was there for all to see. A game turned away from us and they all looked to each other for inspiration and leadership, no one was stepping up. That's when some started realising that there was one very important ingredient missing from this squad, that desire to win and win at any cost.
There's a few that talk the talk, but none that walk the walk.
We are a squad of settlers, have been for quite a while.

I'd say Kane and Dier are the two who are 'non settlers'

What about the other top 6 teams ? Who are their non-settlers?

 

[MKSpur]

we were punching above our weight and not realizing and when we did, we reverted to type. Its like if you think about walking while you're walking over, you might fall over.

I feel like we were punching above our weight and just when the club was at its most harmonious and probably the most attractive for players to join us and we thought we’d finally cracked it.
So much so that playing at a neutral ground, players ageing / getting injured / selling Walker and not upgrading the squad wouldn’t stop us finishing above the teams with double our wage budgets.
First hit was the decline of the defence, Lloris became error prone, Walker went, Rose got injured and I don’t think mentally got over Walker getting the move and he not when his own stock was at its peak, Toby got a bad hammy and him and Jan were gradually aging, Trippier had a downturn in form post WC and Sanchez was not an upgrade on Even the aged Belgian boys.
Dembele’s physical decline, Wanyama’s knee, Dier’s illness and even Wink’s ankle wiped out a double pivot which helped that peak back 4 look even better.
We managed to compensate for this with Alli and Kane striking up a great partnership, Son emerged as a genuine alternative number 9 and all 3 of them could hit 20 a season, orchestrated by Eriksen who as well as conducting the band managed to chip in with the highest running stats and seldom missing a game let alone not compete 90 minutes, even if his magic wand of a free kick deserted him. Then Kane started to get fatigued trying to play Ronaldo and Messi levels of minutes for club and country and when he came back it took a while for him to find his top form, Alli stopped being a late arrived in the box hitting lampard numbers and started to become the new Jenas. We lost the energy to press and if we couldn’t get an early lead or ended going behind you could visibly see our players passing the ball backwards and sideways around the edge of the box to Eriksen, literally begging him to make something happen for us and when he’d decided he’d had enough there was no one to step into the breach.
There are a few we need to salvage from the wreck, but we have lost the best part of two thirds of a great first 11, arguably Kane Alli and Son are the only remnants and without clean sheets or someone to provide the bullets they are going to deliver less too. Even if you are include Dier I’m not sure VVD could carry out back four in it’s current incarnation.
England ruined a few of ours too, Alli played out of position and then injured, Trippier injured and Kane flogged into the ground and operating more as a 10 as Sterling and Lindgaard haven’t hit a first time pass in their life.
Instead of gradual and ongoing repairs we now need multiple fixes at the same time, the next batch of incomings will be vital if we are to establish a top 4 challenge next season or beyond.

 

[Moby]

The main issue has been incorrect and /or badly advised recruitment from July 2016 onwards.

This was our first team back then:
Lloris
Walker Toby Jan Rose
Wanyama Dembele
Eriksen Dele Son
Kane
Subs; Vorm, Dier, Davies, Trippier, Winks, Lamela....

Since July 2016 the above team has aged and many have departed. And this is how our long term succession planning has seen fit to address the not exactly unforeseen circumstances of i) aging and ii) leaving:-

July 16. Jansen £17m. Disaster.
Aug 16. Sissoko £30m. A joke for 2 years. Now a limited willing runner with no technical ability.
Aug 16. Nkoudou £11m. Championship level, never played.
Aug 17. Sanchez £40m. Up and down, but mostly bang average.
Aug 17. Gazzaniga. £1m. Ok standby for the fee.
Aug 17. Foyth. £8m. Sadly looking like another disaster.
Aug 17. Aurier. £23m. Absolute disaster/liability.
Aug 17. Llorente. £15m. Limited player, worked as an option eventually when not playing football.
Jan 18. Lucas. £25m. Flatters to deceive, limited player with limited to zero end product.
Summer 18. N/A
Jan 19. N/A
(18 months without recruitment)
Jul 19. Ndombele. £50m. Fat disaster
Jul 19. Clarke. £10m. Absolute waste of money.
Aug 19. Lo Celso. £40m? Looks to be good.
Aug 19. Sessegnon. £25m. We’ve bought Kyle Walker-Peters again, but for the left.
Jan 20. Bergwijn £27m. Looks to be good.

So in the 5 year period that Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen and Trippier have left, and Hugo, Jan, Toby, Dier, Dele, Kane and Son have all regressed to varying degrees, we have spent £322m on that absolute list of dross! (and GLC & Bergwijn)

 

[parklane1]

I called it during that game, it was like watching an era end in front of our eyes.
Got pilloried for it, but it was there for all to see. A game turned away from us and they all looked to each other for inspiration and leadership, no one was stepping up. That's when some started realising that there was one very important ingredient missing from this squad, that desire to win and win at any cost.
There's a few that talk the talk, but none that walk the walk.
We are a squad of settlers, have been for quite a while.

Can not agree more with this bit, said so a couple of seasons back that our players ( as a whole) have not got the mentalit y to be serious winners ( there were quite a few who laughed at at that but its been proven to be true). You can have all the great players in a team but unless they have that " winning mentalit y" they will always fall down when it comes to the crunch.

And that has happened to us on several occasions since, we need winners who will go through brick walls to achieve that win ( cue some dismissing that straight away) but as they say the proof is in the pudding.

 

[Pirate55]

The main issue has been incorrect and /or badly advised recruitment from July 2016 onwards.

This was our first team back then:
Lloris
Walker Toby Jan Rose
Wanyama Dembele
Eriksen Dele Son
Kane
Subs; Vorm, Dier, Davies, Trippier, Winks, Lamela....

Since July 2016 the above team has aged and many have departed. And this is how our long term succession planning has seen fit to address the not exactly unforeseen circumstances of i) aging and ii) leaving:-

July 16. Jansen £17m. Disaster.
Aug 16. Sissoko £30m. A joke for 2 years. Now a limited willing runner with no technical ability.
Aug 16. Nkoudou £11m. Championship level, never played.
Aug 17. Sanchez £40m. Up and down, but mostly bang average.
Aug 17. Gazzaniga. £1m. Ok standby for the fee.
Aug 17. Foyth. £8m. Sadly looking like another disaster.
Aug 17. Aurier. £23m. Absolute disaster/liability.
Aug 17. Llorente. £15m. Limited player, worked as an option eventually when not playing football.
Jan 18. Lucas. £25m. Flatters to deceive, limited player with limited to zero end product.
Summer 18. N/A
Jan 19. N/A
(18 months without recruitment)
Jul 19. Ndombele. £50m. Fat disaster
Jul 19. Clarke. £10m. Absolute waste of money.
Aug 19. Lo Celso. £40m? Looks to be good.
Aug 19. Sessegnon. £25m. We’ve bought Kyle Walker-Peters again, but for the left.
Jan 20. Bergwijn £27m. Looks to be good.

So in the 5 year period that Walker, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen and Trippier have left, and Hugo, Jan, Toby, Dier, Dele, Kane and Son have all regressed to varying degrees, we have spent £322m on that absolute list of dross! (and GLC & Bergwijn)

£322m - and yet still people claim Poch wasn’t backed. Unbelievable.