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The Official 2021/22 Premier League Thread

Why are people upset with Gueye deciding to not wear a jersey? Really? Why? Is it really shocking that a Muslim refused to wear something that is against his religion? Isn't that a violation of some sort against him as well?

He is not supporting violence against homosexuals. He just doesn't want to wear a jersey.
 
afsoc4life said:
Why are people upset with Gueye deciding to not wear a jersey? Really? Why? Is it really shocking that a Muslim refused to wear something that is against his religion? Isn't that a violation of some sort against him as well?

He is not supporting violence against homosexuals. He just doesn't want to wear a jersey.
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Why are you upset other people are upset about a learned prejudice?

Religion is a choice. A fudging weird one.
 
afsoc4life said:
Why are people upset with Gueye deciding to not wear a jersey? Really? Why? Is it really shocking that a Muslim refused to wear something that is against his religion? Isn't that a violation of some sort against him as well?

He is not supporting violence against homosexuals. He just doesn't want to wear a jersey.
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It shouldn’t be a surprise that some rights and protections trump others, and that tolerance towards religion has a place in a hierarchy of tolerances which is fairly easy to intuit, one key issue being that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice, but following a religion or, for that matter, working in the football industry definitely is.
 
afsoc4life said:
Why are people upset with Gueye deciding to not wear a jersey? Really? Why? Is it really shocking that a Muslim refused to wear something that is against his religion? Isn't that a violation of some sort against him as well?

He is not supporting violence against homosexuals. He just doesn't want to wear a jersey.
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Aren't alcohol and betting also forbidden under Islam?

upload_2022-5-19_9-42-58.png upload_2022-5-19_9-43-26.png

Of course it is his choice whether or not to wear the rainbow shirt, no one should be forced to wear something against their will.
But in refusing to do so he is open to question - and judgement - as to why he is making that choice. A fair conclusion to draw is that he is not supportive of equal rights for LGBTQ+ people, which in turn means he has no issue with discrimination against them (discrimination comes in many forms, not only violence). And that is wrong and deserves criticism.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
Aren't alcohol and betting also forbidden under Islam?

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Of course it is his choice whether or not to wear the rainbow shirt, no one should be forced to wear something against their will.
But in refusing to do so he is open to question - and judgement - as to why he is making that choice. A fair conclusion to draw is that he is not supportive of equal rights for LGBTQ+ people, which in turn means he has no issue with discrimination against them (discrimination comes in many forms, not only violence). And that is wrong and deserves criticism.
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Fair point. And it would be difficult to answer for myself. One could ask if his awareness has increased during his time at Everton and now PSG. Difficult to answer for Gueye. However if he has come out to say this is the reason why, I can understand the reasoning and the complexity behind the reasoning. I also think it is far reaching to say he doesn't support equal rights for LGBTQ+. He just doesn't want to wear that jersey.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
It shouldn’t be a surprise that some rights and protections trump others, and that tolerance towards religion has a place in a hierarchy of tolerances which is fairly easy to intuit, one key issue being that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice, but following a religion or, for that matter, working in the football industry definitely is.
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Interesting post. However I think you downplay how important religion (whether it is a choice or not) is for certain people. I have compassion towards Gueye because I understand where he comes from and I know there are billions of people aligned with him. The response is one I challenge. Shouldn't the answer be education rather than attempting to insult or cancel him?
 
afsoc4life said:
Interesting post. However I think you downplay how important religion (whether it is a choice or not) is for certain people. I have compassion towards Gueye because I understand where he comes from and I know there are billions of people aligned with him. The response is one I challenge. Shouldn't the answer be education rather than attempting to insult or cancel him?
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I suppose it’s a matter for his employers, which makes it all the dafter that they are PSG, who are engaged in reputation-washing for the homophobic Qatari state. At least Palace can slap its players down with a clear conscience.
 
We have many religions which other religious people do not agree with and everyone has their own opinion on whats right and whats wrong. Why are people nowadays criticised because they do not follow the majorities opinion? If it is because he does not agree with people being gay why should this be a problem? Thats his opinion and why should we as a population try to change his mind to what we think is right?
 
afsoc4life said:
I also think it is far reaching to say he doesn't support equal rights for LGBTQ+. He just doesn't want to wear that jersey.
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But its also hard to draw any other conclusion.

There is a slight conflation here between what is a right and what is a belief and unfortunately for religion as it is a belief, by definition, it should be open for questioning and therefore if you are against homosexuality by "belief" that up for serious questioning.

Being gay is not a belief or really a right, its a fact, you don't believe you are gay or become gay purely because its your right, you are gay because you are.

And its not a question of what I believe against what they believe and each others views should be respected, I don't believe homosexuality is right, its is right in the same way that being heterosexual it right, its not a belief, its called being a human being and human choice.
 
Grays_1890 said:
But its also hard to draw any other conclusion.

There is a slight conflation here between what is a right and what is a belief and unfortunately for religion as it is a belief, by definition, it should be open for questioning and therefore if you are against homosexuality by "belief" that up for serious questioning.

Being gay is not a belief or really a right, its a fact, you don't believe you are gay or become gay purely because its your right, you are gay because you are.

And its not a question of what I believe against what they believe and each others views should be respected, I don't believe homosexuality is right, its is right in the same way that being heterosexual it right, its not a belief, its called being a human being and human choice.
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I hear you but I will emphasize that 'homosexuality not being a choice' is not agreed by billions of people.
 
Yiddo said:
We have many religions which other religious people do not agree with and everyone has their own opinion on whats right and whats wrong. Why are people nowadays criticised because they do not follow the majorities opinion? If it is because he does not agree with people being gay why should this be a problem? Thats his opinion and why should we as a population try to change his mind to what we think is right?
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I guess the counter argument is that people will say everyone should live and let live and anything short of that ends up with discrimination. And this is where the authorities have a tough gig. A few people have said in this thread that people should be allowed to believe what they like as long as they are not actively discriminating against anyone else (I paraphrase). They shouldn't be forced by their employers to support a position that runs contrary to their beliefs. And that's not an unreasonable position to take.

The problem for the authorities here is that they will be accused of not doing enough to promote LGBTQ+ rights if they take that approach. We saw it with racism over the years.

I'm not criticising anyone's position in this by the way or trying to say what's right and what's not. Discrimination is obviously wrong but we're not really talking active discrimination here. There are no 100% right answers.

This is where I think the problem might be for gay players and it's not necessarily with the macarons in the crowd of which there will be some but they'll be in a tiny minority. Let's say 99% of players say they have no problem sharing a dressing room with gay players. That's still 1% that do. If you're a young player at a big club and the top players are religious and potentially homophobic, would you risk coming out and creating a scene/situation? If you're a manager, do you sign an openly gay player if you have religious and potentially (silently) homophobic star players?
 
DeanoAustin said:
I guess the counter argument is that people will say everyone should live and let live and anything short of that ends up with discrimination. And this is where the authorities have a tough gig. A few people have said in this thread that people should be allowed to believe what they like as long as they are not actively discriminating against anyone else (I paraphrase). They shouldn't be forced by their employers to support a position that runs contrary to their beliefs. And that's not an unreasonable position to take.

The problem for the authorities here is that they will be accused of not doing enough to promote LGBTQ+ rights if they take that approach. We saw it with racism over the years.

I'm not criticising anyone's position in this by the way or trying to say what's right and what's not. Discrimination is obviously wrong but we're not really talking active discrimination here. There are no 100% right answers.

This is where I think the problem might be for gay players and it's not necessarily with the my tits in the crowd of which there will be some but they'll be in a tiny minority. Let's say 99% of players say they have no problem sharing a dressing room with gay players. That's still 1% that do. If you're a young player at a big club and the top players are religious and potentially homophobic, would you risk coming out and creating a scene/situation? If you're a manager, do you sign an openly gay player if you have religious and potentially (silently) homophobic star players?
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Very good and fair points. People also need to consider what it means for the global market as well. Lets say by some stroke that Saudi Arabia / Middle East becomes the next big footballing market, what happens to gay players or clubs with gay players since we all know how many of them (football clubs) love money.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I guess the counter argument is that people will say everyone should live and let live and anything short of that ends up with discrimination. And this is where the authorities have a tough gig. A few people have said in this thread that people should be allowed to believe what they like as long as they are not actively discriminating against anyone else (I paraphrase). They shouldn't be forced by their employers to support a position that runs contrary to their beliefs. And that's not an unreasonable position to take.

The problem for the authorities here is that they will be accused of not doing enough to promote LGBTQ+ rights if they take that approach. We saw it with racism over the years.

I'm not criticising anyone's position in this by the way or trying to say what's right and what's not. Discrimination is obviously wrong but we're not really talking active discrimination here. There are no 100% right answers.

This is where I think the problem might be for gay players and it's not necessarily with the my tits in the crowd of which there will be some but they'll be in a tiny minority. Let's say 99% of players say they have no problem sharing a dressing room with gay players. That's still 1% that do. If you're a young player at a big club and the top players are religious and potentially homophobic, would you risk coming out and creating a scene/situation? If you're a manager, do you sign an openly gay player if you have religious and potentially (silently) homophobic star players?
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Hit the tickle my balls with a feather there, good post. My next response was going down the road of him not actively coming out and being against it but you have pretty much summed it all up.

There will always be a problem with the minority not accepting what the majority feel is right and it’s something that will never change. Some people grow up believing that being gay is wrong and it could well be their belief that is encouraged by religion. I don’t think that will ever change and should it? What is the difference between us thinking its ok and acceptable? Its the uneducated haters who, like racism just outright refuse to acknowledge it as an everyday thing thats normal that is the problem, the people who don’t think its manly to be gay or think people with a different skin colour should be treated differently because their skin colour is of a higher power, they are the people that need some serious help.
 
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DeanoAustin said:
If you're a young player at a big club and the top players are religious and potentially homophobic, would you risk coming out and creating a scene/situation? If you're a manager, do you sign an openly gay player if you have religious and potentially (silently) homophobic star players?
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Then surely this just proves the point that someone's right to be who they are should outweigh anything else, especially someone else's bigoted belief. I would hope the manager in that instance is not influenced by someone elses discrimination and blocks a player career because of their sexuality. Surely we have been working towards a society where that does not happen, not go back 20 years. The fact that opportunities could potentially dry up for openly gay players because of the religious beliefs of other players, in your example, shows just how ridiculous it is in my opinion and proves my point
 
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