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The Longest Thread Of Football (The Other Teams)

Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Lost Mango said:
Is this the Uli Honess who has just been outted for tax evasion? or, sorry "avoidance".
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Nothing wrong with tax avoidance.


If someone came up to you and asked if you wanted to legally pay less tax you'd bite their hand off.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Raziel said:
flimflam, and just another media lovefest with current "flavor of the month", last year it was Barca/Spain, next year?

Fact is, it all depends on their business model, do they for example negotiate their own tv rights ala Spain, or share like EPL? how much of the stadium is set up for corporate facilities?

If they have their own tv rights, have a disproportionate percentage of merchandising in country and have a fairly new stadium (or updated) that facilitates a large corporate clientele, then average fan ticket cost is not as impactful. The smaller clubs would have to match or be comparable, so the interesting question is, what is the financial state of the clubs outside the top 6 in Germany?
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A fair post, but it's still odd that what you'd imagine is one of the primary revenue streams (match tickets) isn't really fully tapped, and doesn't seem to need to be fully tapped. It'd be interesting to see where a club like Bayern get all their money.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Seedy Ron said:
A fair post, but it's still odd that what you'd imagine is one of the primary revenue streams (match tickets) isn't really fully tapped, and doesn't seem to need to be fully tapped. It'd be interesting to see where a club like Bayern get all their money.
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But that's the point, the business model is evolving to a place where average fan tickets are not impactful

- In the last 3-5 years, tickets may have gone up 30% (I doubt, but lets say 30-50%), tv revenue has doubled and will continue to go up
- There was a discussion around our new stadium that basically said the extra 14K or seats was not going to be the big revenue difference, it would be the new corporate facilities that would really change matchday revenue
- Sponsorship deals might drive the prices in Germany (again, unknown, but not hard to imagine you could negotiate a better deal with a full, vocal fanbase every week, than a 2/3rds full stadium paying higher ticket prices)
- Taxes, government incentives/corruption (ala Spain/Itlay), lot of other variables vs. hey look make ticket prices cheap and we will be successful.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

One of the reasons I love the Bundesliga so much. They're going to be one off (or more than likely the only) league left laughing in hysteruics when the football bubble bursts and the foundations of the Premier League and La Liga are left in shatters whilst the Bundesliga stays strong.

An example to world football.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Craig_J said:
One of the reasons I love the Bundesliga so much. They're going to be one off (or more than likely the only) league left laughing in hysteruics when the football bubble bursts and the foundations of the Premier League and La Liga are left in shatters whilst the Bundesliga stays strong.

An example to world football.
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Nothing personal mate, but flimflam

- The world football bubble is not going to burst, fact is tv deals will get bigger as markets like China, India, Far East, developing world get more access to the EPL and La Liga, more merchandising will happen and more sponsors will get on board. The best merchandising deals, the best/most popular players, the top 3 clubs are still in those leagues you dismiss.
- Example to world football? until someone shows me figures that the teams in the bottom half of the Bundesliga are rolling in cash, regularly competing for titles/trophies, then I've seen nothing different. Oh look, the two top teams in a major European League are doing well, how is that an example to World football?
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

if it does burst (unlikely imo) the german teams will suffer the same as everyone else as the real money comes from tv deals and sponsorships not the turnstiles
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

raboner said:
doesn't mean they fudging well should though. and what of those who can't?
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Fans don't have a GHod given right to be able to attend matches. If you can't afford it, tough. There are only a limited number of spaces, if a team is filling a stadium every week then the price isn't too high.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Seedy Ron said:
A fair post, but it's still odd that what you'd imagine is one of the primary revenue streams (match tickets) isn't really fully tapped, and doesn't seem to need to be fully tapped. It'd be interesting to see where a club like Bayern get all their money.
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German clubs tend to get a higher proportion of their money from sponsorship. In the deloitte analyses the German clubs do best in this category.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Seedy Ron said:
A fair post, but it's still odd that what you'd imagine is one of the primary revenue streams (match tickets) isn't really fully tapped, and doesn't seem to need to be fully tapped. It'd be interesting to see where a club like Bayern get all their money.
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There's a school of thought that fans are willing to spend more at games on merchandise because they dont feel fleeced by ridiculous ticket prices.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

jts1882 said:
German clubs tend to get a higher proportion of their money from sponsorship. In the deloitte analyses the German clubs do best in this category.
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Isn't the PL the most watched league in the universe though? Shouldn't English clubs be able to cash in on that?

Modric THFC said:
There's a school of thought that fans are willing to spend more at games on merchandise because they dont feel fleeced by ridiculous ticket prices.
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I could understand that if the price difference was relatively small, but if the season ticket price in the OP is correct then it's miles cheaper over there. Would cost about that for a ST for my local non-league side. Would merch sales really make up that sort of difference?

I'm not saying either of you are wrong btw, I just don't get how they manage it :)

Richie said:
Fans don't have a GHod given right to be able to attend matches. If you can't afford it, tough. There are only a limited number of spaces, if a team is filling a stadium every week then the price isn't too high.
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A lot of English clubs don't fill them though, not even close. It makes you wonder why a full stadium at a lower price isn't more attractive than a half full stadium at current prices (obviously there's a tipping point in there).
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

jts1882 said:
German clubs tend to get a higher proportion of their money from sponsorship. In the deloitte analyses the German clubs do best in this category.
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This is key.

German clubs make massively more from sponsorship than their English and Spanish counterparts.

Whether that's just because they are only temporarily ahead of the game, having caught English and Spanish clubs on the hop in respect of sponsorship, or whether it's just because German companies are prepared to commit greater funds to football sponsorship, I don't know.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

more as a percentage of income or more actual cash?

I'd be surprised if Munich brought in more sponsorship than United or Madrid for example
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

I don't think money from China and India is going to come flooding in anytime soon - in China at least, basketball is getting far more popular while we'll never produce a superstar or even decent footballer within the next 20 years due to a lot of issues (corruption, lack of support for youth, lack of pitch space etc) which is the only way this sport will really take off here. And we pirate/fake everything - we'll never pay you money for a shirt or a channel. A years or two back I remember reading that Man United's overseas revenue was only 1%, which makes sense to me. I'd be interested in seeing Bayern's overseas figure.

English fans are getting taken for a ringer. The emotional attachment fans have to their club means that demand is relatively inelastic - no matter how much you charge, demand isn't going to go down much. Meanwhile, TV revenue and oligarch owners have become far more important to success both on and off the pitch these days, but both are outside the club's control - so fans are now the one sliver you *can* squeeze every last drop out of after revenue channels like merchandising, player sales etc have been maximized. So it becomes an ever-racketing feedback loop - as some clubs happily plow in cash from their owners, other clubs without those owners have to squeeze their fans to remain competitive and at least not get relegated, which forces *other* clubs who'd really rather not do this raise prices too. The only way to make this end is when the fans rebel (eg Villa), or the most of the league agrees to de facto limits on spending (eg City and Chelsea might keep spending all they want, but everyone else works with reality).

Personally, I'm expecting a major global economic decline within the next decade (mainly triggered by energy and debt), so I think football will collapse too unless it becomes a sort of 'rich man's sport' (though I doubt there are that many sugardaddy billionaires out there). It'll be interesting to see if the model changes drastically if fans and corporate can no longer afford the current price points.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Raziel said:
Nothing personal mate, but flimflam

- The world football bubble is not going to burst, fact is tv deals will get bigger as markets like China, India, Far East, developing world get more access to the EPL and La Liga, more merchandising will happen and more sponsors will get on board. The best merchandising deals, the best/most popular players, the top 3 clubs are still in those leagues you dismiss.
- Example to world football? until someone shows me figures that the teams in the bottom half of the Bundesliga are rolling in cash, regularly competing for titles/trophies, then I've seen nothing different. Oh look, the two top teams in a major European League are doing well, how is that an example to World football?
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This year Bayern are tinkling their league, but more often than not, the league is much more competitive than our league. 5 teams have won it in the last decade, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Dortmund, Bayern and Werder Bremen. Does anyone honestly think Bayern wouldn't have done the same if they were in our league this season? Adrian Durham was spouting his usual gonads the other day about how Bayern rested players and still won 6-1, proving the Bundesliga is weak. Poor arguement. They have just smashed Barca 7-0 on aggregate! I guess that means Barca aren't a very good side eh?

Bayern are clearly the biggest club in Germany, but that is largely because they were the only German team to be dominant in Europe and they have earned their money through success on the pitch, just like United and Liverpool. They will more than likely win the league next season, but the overall state of German football is promising. They had 4 teams in the last 16 of the CL. Plenty of up and coming stars like Gotze, Draxler, Reus and Gundogan. Plus most of the teams play an attractive passing style of play.

I'm not saying the Bundesliga will rule the football landscape for years to come, that would be presumptuous and we all know these things move in cycles, but the league has no doubt improved while ours has got worse. I just think a lot of English people simply can't stand the fact that Germany has two teams in the final and German football is getting a lot of attention and praise. Enlgish football fans get very defensive and cite the number of English teams in the final in previous seasons, don't really understand why, how does what happened in 2008 when the premier league was stronger have anything to do with the state of our league now?
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Jurgen the German said:
This year Bayern are tinkling their league, but more often than not, the league is much more competitive than our league. 5 teams have won it in the last decade, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Dortmund, Bayern and Werder Bremen. Does anyone honestly think Bayern wouldn't have done the same if they were in our league this season? Adrian Durham was spouting his usual gonads the other day about how Bayern rested players and still won 6-1, proving the Bundesliga is weak. Poor arguement. They have just smashed Barca 7-0 on aggregate! I guess that means Barca aren't a very good side eh?

Bayern are clearly the biggest club in Germany, but that is largely because they were the only German team to be dominant in Europe and they have earned their money through success on the pitch, just like United and Liverpool. They will more than likely win the league next season, but the overall state of German football is promising. They had 4 teams in the last 16 of the CL. Plenty of up and coming stars like Gotze, Draxler, Reus and Gundogan. Plus most of the teams play an attractive passing style of play.

I'm not saying the Bundesliga will rule the football landscape for years to come, that would be presumptuous and we all know these things move in cycles, but the league has no doubt improved while ours has got worse. I just think a lot of English people simply can't stand the fact that Germany has two teams in the final and German football is getting a lot of attention and praise. Enlgish football fans get very defensive and cite the number of English teams in the final in previous seasons, don't really understand why, how does what happened in 2008 when the premier league was stronger have anything to do with the state of our league now?
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Cups are tricky things though. You can't take cups and say 'well that means they are definitively the best teams'.

Or are Swansea, Wigan and Bradford now amongst the cream of British football?
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Spursalot said:
Cups are tricky things though. You can't take cups and say 'well that means they are definitively the best teams'.

Or are Swansea, Wigan and Bradford now amongst the cream of British football?
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No I agree, but when English teams do well in the CL, we all say there you go, that's proof our league is the strongest. But when we have a couple of bad years, we say it's just a blip. I'm looking more at the quality of the teams, our league has declined a bit in my opinion, although the excitement level is still very high. And from watching a lot of foreign football, I would say Bayern and Dortmund are two of the 4 best teams in Europe, along with Barca and Madrid.
 
Re: Uli Höness on Bayern Munich's season ticket prices

Jurgen the German said:
No I agree, but when English teams do well in the CL, we all say there you go, that's proof our league is the strongest. But when we have a couple of bad years, we say it's just a blip. I'm looking more at the quality of the teams, our league has declined a bit in my opinion, although the excitement level is still very high. And from watching a lot of foreign football, I would say Bayern and Dortmund are two of the 4 best teams in Europe, along with Barca and Madrid.
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I would agree with you there.


Internal excitement within the league is a must have really, United have walked off with the title this season though. Then again the 'big' leagues have all been walked this season, it's been a bit of an odd one.
 
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